Anger towards the Church is so SAD!

[Roy5]

Again, I appreciate the opportunity of expressing dissenting views here on CAF. I have always been interested in Catholicism, still receive five Catholic periodicals, attend Mass frequently, and enjoy warm conversations with Catholics and Protestants - and atheists, Muslims, Mormons, and others, too.

**However, I am eager for two things**. 

**(1) That Catholicism may become more tolerant of those who simply cannot honestly believe what the Church insists they believe.** If we could believe all those doctrines and traditions, many of us would be very pleased. But our integrity leads us to say that we either cannot believe or that we doubts basic teachings of the Church that she considers absolutely necessary as well as infallible. There are millions of Catholics known, of course, as 'cafeteria Catholics', many of whom feel as I do. They remain in the Church because of family, comfort level, habit or whatever but polls have shown that they differ little from Protestants in that they have a wide varieties of opinions when it comes to matters of religion.

 **Just tonight we were out for dinner when we ran into friends**, another couple. They are devout Catholics but all of their children have left the Church, most of them to join Protestant groups - mainline and evangelical. The parents are concerned and wish the Church could have held them. Why have they left? According to their parents they had different reasons, everything from doctrinal doubts to alienation from the Mass (too staid) to the sex scandal.

** (2) Because of my mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage from an early age I wanted Christians to be respectful of one another.** That’s hard when the Catholic Church claims to be the one true religion and all the rest are actually ‘ecclesia entities’ (not properly churches) whose ministers administer an invalid communion (said Benedict XVI). Now, how are Protestants supposed to respond to that sort of condescension? It’s hardly the way to win friends and influence people.

** The Protestant denominations I find attractive are those that permit a wide difference of opinion**. Attend one of their Bible study groups and the leader doesn’t say: “That’s what our church declares and as members we must believe it.” No. When a different and/or conflicting interpretation of a passage is offered by a group member, the most likely response is: “That’s interesting.” These denominations include the Episcopalians, Methodists, Prebsyterians, UCC, Disciples of Christ and others - mainline churches.

** I’m fully aware that my opinions here on CAF are not popular**. I welcome rebuttal, and there certainly has been plenty of that. However, I hope in some small way to contribute to more latitude within the Church and a fuller sense of unity and harmony among Christians. Some of you are inspired by a different mission. Fine. Let the dialogue continue. I feel that I am well acquainted with Catholicism, have enormous respect for the Mother Theresas and the Fr. Damiens, and fully appreciate the conntribution the Church has made (and is making) to the poor, health care and education. I still need a faith that permits differences of opinion - a reality which already exists among Catholics. True, conformity has advantages, but millions of educated people feel that their brains are gifts of God and that the Lord does not object when we use them, even if it leads to differences of opinion.

God bless everybody.

 

[CopticChristian]

Again, I appreciate the opportunity of expressing dissenting views here on CAF. I have always been interested in Catholicism, still receive five Catholic periodicals, attend Mass frequently, and enjoy warm conversations with Catholics and Protestants - and atheists, Muslims, Mormons, and others, too.

**However, I am eager for two things**. 

**(1) That Catholicism may become more tolerant of those who simply cannot honestly believe what the Church insists they believe.** If** we **could believe all those doctrines and traditions, **many of us** would be very pleased. But **our **integrity leads us to say that **we **either cannot believe or that we doubts basic teachings of the Church that she considers absolutely necessary as well as infallible. There are **millions of Catholics known**, of course, as 'cafeteria Catholics', many of whom feel as I do. They remain in the Church because of family, comfort level, habit or whatever but polls have shown that they differ little from Protestants in that they have a wide varieties of opinions when it comes to matters of religion.

 **Just tonight we were out for dinner when we ran into friends**, another couple. They are devout Catholics but all of their children have left the Church, most of them to join Protestant groups - mainline and evangelical. The parents are concerned and wish the Church could have held them. Why have they left? According to their parents they had different reasons, everything from doctrinal doubts to alienation from the Mass (too staid) to the sex scandal.

** (2) Because of my mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage from an early age I wanted Christians to be respectful of one another.** That’s hard when the Catholic Church claims to be the one true religion and all the rest are actually ‘ecclesia entities’ (not properly churches) whose ministers administer an invalid communion (said Benedict XVI). Now, how are Protestants supposed to respond to that sort of condescension? It’s hardly the way to win friends and influence people.

** The Protestant denominations I find attractive are those that permit a wide difference of opinion**. Attend one of their Bible study groups and the leader doesn’t say: “That’s what our church declares and as members we must believe it.” No. When a different and/or conflicting interpretation of a passage is offered by a group member, the most likely response is: “That’s interesting.” These denominations include the Episcopalians, Methodists, Prebsyterians, UCC, Disciples of Christ and others - mainline churches.

** I’m fully aware that my opinions here on CAF are not popular**. I welcome rebuttal, and there certainly has been plenty of that. However, I hope in some small way to contribute to more latitude within the Church and a fuller sense of unity and harmony among Christians. Some of you are inspired by a different mission. Fine. Let the dialogue continue. I feel that I am well acquainted with Catholicism, have enormous respect for the Mother Theresas and the Fr. Damiens, and fully appreciate the conntribution the Church has made (and is making) to the poor, health care and education. I still need a faith that permits differences of opinion - a reality which already exists among Catholics. True, conformity has advantages, but millions of educated people feel that their brains are gifts of God and that the Lord does not object when we use them, even if it leads to differences of opinion.

God bless everybody.

Who is “we”, “our”?

The Catholic Church is over 1 billion. You know 1 million? Give or take a million does not matter the Church continues to grow and in the next generation will grow larger.

Sorry about the concerns for what Protestants think about ecclesial bodies as you say…This is a 500 year old Problem and the problem was not an action of the Catholic Church…blame 4 Catholic Priests and one Catholic Lawyer…probably from a family like you describe. Can you imagine how their parents felt.

The Conversations probably went something like this…and Helga how is your son the Augustinian…you mean Martin…oh…he left the Church, married a nun and we and Hansel pray for him daily…oh no…you know John Calvin did the same thing…you know his father was excommunicated for embezzelment…and what about the Zwingli family…oh did you not hear…his poor mother is so sad…gave up the priesthood…you know he was a admitted fornicator before leaving the priesthood and getting married…is that right…

So if you want to lay blame lay blame on the Protestors…as I see you are Protesting…

 

[CompSciGuy]

So I am a new Convert and I have been doing all my reading and studying I can since starting my Journey into the Church. It really saddens me about all the Anti-Catholic things that are out there from other Denominations and Atheist ect. I mean literally just a second ago I came across a Video of a Preacher at some church Bashing the head of a Statue of Mary. The wrath and Hate Filled speech coming from this man and his congregation was so troubling. I then decided to continue my Journey on Youtube which is anti pretty most all Christianity but I will tell you the Hate towards the Church is so sad in my eyes.

Then I think back to a comment from Archbishop Fulton Sheen “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing.”

What is so sad is more towards fellow Christians. Having So Called church leads preaching hate is a serious detriment and completely off base from what Christ died for. Sorry to be ranting but it really bothered me. I have known many Catholics through out my years and have a hard to recalling anything of the sort from them. I highly doubt you will find anything of the Sort on Youtube as well.

I can’t help but ask, why exactly were you watching those videos on youtube?

 

[jmoneyideas]

I can’t help but ask, why exactly were you watching those videos on youtube?

Well youtube videos have a think called tags. So if you search Virgin Mary or Catholic you get list of videos. This one was one that was on the list. That’s how.

**oh and on another note which I find a little funny but its still sad is that it was not even a Our Blessed Mother he is breaking, its a statue of St. Theresa our little flower, Goes back to what I believe just more confused Protestant teachings **

 

[JustaServant]

Well youtube videos have a think called tags. So if you search Virgin Mary or Catholic you get list of videos. This one was one that was on the list. That’s how.

**oh and on another note which I find a little funny but its still sad is that it was not even a Our Blessed Mother he is breaking, its a statue of St. Theresa our little flower, Goes back to what I believe just more confused Protestant teachings **

Lets not paint all Protestants with the brush of a fundamentalist nutjob.

It could be our Blessed Mother is drawing him home and he is resisting. People tend to fight all the harder against that which attracts them the most.
Pray for him and his followers.

 

[jmoneyideas]

Lets not paint all Protestants with the brush of a fundamentalist nutjob.

It could be our Blessed Mother is drawing him home and he is resisting. People tend to fight all the harder against that which attracts them the most.
Pray for him and his followers.

I was referencing confused teachingS, not that all protestants believe this particular pastors view, that’s all. It was the similar preaching of my old Protestant Church that caused me to leave that Church and come home to CC.

 

[bz5]

**

** (2) Because of my mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage from an early age I wanted Christians to be respectful of one another.**** That’s hard when the Catholic Church claims to be the one true religion and all the rest are actually ‘ecclesia entities’ (not properly churches) whose ministers administer an invalid communion (said Benedict XVI). Now, how are Protestants supposed to respond to that sort of condescension? It’s hardly the way to win friends and influence people.

God bless everybody.

The Pope believes in “one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.” So of course he doesn’t believe in tens of thousands. (What do Protestants who also use the nicene creed think that means?) I found it ironic at the time that so many other Christian pastors, who don’t even believe in a church as anything more than an invisible body of believers, were suddenly highly insulted that they wouldn’t be part of this physical, visible, authoritative church. HOWEVER, they might not have understood that the Pope considers they ARE all in it by virtue of their baptism. I think what was so offensive to them is when they heard his words, they didn’t hear, “Come home, brothers, to full communion with the church that Jesus established for your benefit and continues to guide,” but rather assumed the Pope was one of the same types as the vitriolic Protestant pastors who stand in their pulpits condemning the whore of babylon and putting Catholic books in the ‘cult’ section of their bookstores.

 

[Roy5]

Protestants who defame Catholicism are to be sharply criticized, of course, We need a polite and respectful conversation about differences, not sweeping and insulting condemnations.

It was interesting to me that CopticChristian lambasts Luther, Calvin and Zwingli ad hominem (or is that ad hominum?). Anyway, he tries to discredit them because of some personal 'sins' they or some relative supposedly committed. If we get into that, wow - think of all the Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, and other religious leaders we can demonize. As I recall King David basically raped Bathsheba, had her husband murdered, then added her to his harem. Solomon, that 'wisest' of all men, had 700 wives and 300 concubines. Yet, we honor these as ancestors of Christ, even though the gospels only trace Christ's geneology through Joseph. Confusing, isn't it? That's why I place such importance on the freedom to think and let think, to question, examine, ponder, weigh, dialogue and, yes, even doubt. This shows a serious effort to understand God. It is not a blind faith but one that is earnest in its efforts to fathom the mysteries of God's magnificent and miraculous creation. 

*CopticChristian*. I must have missed the answer to my question in an earlier posting. You appear to be a member of the Coptic Catholic Church rather than the Coptic Orthodox Church to which the large majority of Egyptian Christians belong. True? What do you think of the Coptic Orthodox, their claim that St. Mark was their first Pope, the fact that they never were part of the Roman Catholic Church, etc.? Just curious. When I have visited Egypt I was fascinated to find so many of them - and to learn that they were affiliated with the World Council of Churches (unless I misunderstood them). My heart, thoughts and prayers go out and up on their behalf during this difficult transition time in their ancient land.

God bless the faithful of every creed, color, culture and country. Let us strive to make religion a bridge rather than a barrier.

 

[Izdaari]

If anybody spends their time hating on anybody, it’s a clue that they don’t know Him, or at least don’t know Him well. To quote Bugs Bunny, “He don’t know me very well, do he?” Jesus did not teach hate.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Roy5;8648260]Protestants who defame Catholicism are to be sharply criticized, of course, We need a polite and respectful conversation about differences, not sweeping and insulting condemnations.

It was interesting to me that CopticChristian lambasts Luther, Calvin and Zwingli ad hominem (or is that ad hominum?). Anyway, he tries to discredit them because of some personal 'sins' they or some relative supposedly committed. If we get into that, wow - think of all the Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, and other religious leaders we can demonize

.
Gee Roy5, I don’t speak for Coptic but I think you missed Coptic’s point. I thought Coptic did an excellent job of providing an example that mirrored your own, I did not take his comment as condesending. When you said;

Roy5 “They are devout Catholics but all of their children have left the Church, most of them to join Protestant groups - mainline and evangelical. The parents are concerned and wish the Church could have held them. Why have they left? **According to their parents they had different reasons, **everything from doctrinal doubts to alienation from the Mass (too staid) to the sex scandal”.

Coptic mirrored your example of what became common place among those who protest the Catholic Church since the reformation;

Coptic "This is a 500 year old Problem and the problem was not an action of the Catholic Church…blame 4 Catholic Priests and one Catholic Lawyer…probably from a family like you describe. Can you imagine how their parents felt.

The Conversations probably went something like this…and Helga how is your son the Augustinian…you mean Martin…oh…he left the Church, married a nun and we and Hansel pray for him daily…oh no…you know John Calvin did the same thing…you know his father was excommunicated for embezzelment…and what about the Zwingli family…oh did you not hear…his poor mother is so sad…gave up the priesthood…you know he was a admitted fornicator before leaving the priesthood and getting married…is that right"…]

Then you replied with a misunderstanding; Then gave more historical background to support Coptics position.

Roy5 "If we get into that, wow - think of all the Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, and other religious leaders we can demonize.

As I recall King David basically raped Bathsheba, had her husband murdered, then added her to his harem. Solomon, that ‘wisest’ of all men, had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

I could be mistaken, but from what I learned from this exchange is that since the beginning of time “man” has always failed God including up to today and days to come… Yet Jesus promised that “gates of hell will never prevail against the Church”. These Words have proven themselves to be True since the Resurrection.

Now all is needed is to define the Church Jesus founded. You imply that the Church consists of men with diverse opinions of Truth and belief’s who pretend to live in peace with each other? This is never a biblical teaching.

The scriptures reveal the Church is the body of Christ both visible and invisible, both human and divine which is the Pillar and foundation of Truth because Jesus true body, blood, soul and divinity presides in His Church which is His body and Jesus is our head.

Peace be with you

 

[Tony888]

If anybody spends their time hating on anybody, it’s a clue that they don’t know Him, or at least don’t know Him well. To quote Bugs Bunny, “He don’t know me very well, do he?” Jesus did not teach hate.

Yes, this is why I quote Lewis in my signature

 

[CopticChristian]

Protestants who defame Catholicism are to be sharply criticized, of course, We need a polite and respectful conversation about differences, not sweeping and insulting condemnations.

It was interesting to me that CopticChristian lambasts Luther, Calvin and Zwingli ad hominem (or is that ad hominum?). Anyway, he tries to discredit them because of some personal 'sins' they or some relative supposedly committed. If we get into that, wow - think of all the Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, and other religious leaders we can demonize. As I recall King David basically raped Bathsheba, had her husband murdered, then added her to his harem. Solomon, that 'wisest' of all men, had 700 wives and 300 concubines. Yet, we honor these as ancestors of Christ, even though the gospels only trace Christ's geneology through Joseph. Confusing, isn't it? That's why I place such importance on the freedom to think and let think, to question, examine, ponder, weigh, dialogue and, yes, even doubt. This shows a serious effort to understand God. It is not a blind faith but one that is earnest in its efforts to fathom the mysteries of God's magnificent and miraculous creation. 

*CopticChristian*. I must have missed the answer to my question in an earlier posting. You appear to be a member of the Coptic Catholic Church rather than the Coptic Orthodox Church to which the large majority of Egyptian Christians belong. True? What do you think of the Coptic Orthodox, their claim that St. Mark was their first Pope, the fact that they never were part of the Roman Catholic Church, etc.? Just curious. When I have visited Egypt I was fascinated to find so many of them - and to learn that they were affiliated with the World Council of Churches (unless I misunderstood them). My heart, thoughts and prayers go out and up on their behalf during this difficult transition time in their ancient land.

God bless the faithful of every creed, color, culture and country. Let us strive to make religion a bridge rather than a barrier.

Roy,

This is the first post I see whre it does not appear to be a newsletter.

All I provided for you was a compare and contrast one Catholic experience of leaving the Church with yours.

You are an enigma. I suggest that based on your proposition and hope to infuse liberality you go back and read your posts and some responses to see how you are succeeding…it reminds me of the scene in fight club where Tyler asks…

youtube.com/watch?v=pIwToj3p3vM

You fight for Protestant thought however to dialogue with you is difficult. Quoting Bible verses would mean nothing because you have clearly stated that the Bible is not inerrant and you register your doubts about the word of God. So lets try something different.

The burden of the transmission of thought to cause change is great. If I want someone to think and believe like me, I have to be willing to bear the consequences of what it is I am trying to cause them to do. That is huge…have you thought about that…

Your will v.s. God’s Will. I believe you have a belief in God…for you say “God bless everyone”…so far so good.

You must believe something is true or not true. You must believe something is either the Will of God or not…this you must decide.

I believe that Protestant thought is not true…look at the history of what it has done for the world and in fact for Christendom. Can you truly say that it is the sum of all truth that God wants anyone to know? Recall that some of these truths came from Catholics.

Digress for a moment. If the Protestant thought that came from these people Knox, Zwingli, Luther Calvin are the source of the Protestant thought understand that they were educated, spiritual, and powerful. Now, imagine all the people, each and everyone that came before them…from Christ right up to the point that they departed. Do you imagine that those that were within the Church were any less brilliant, spriritual or powerful? There were many more of them and they did not work alone but together in a Church. Think about that for awhile.

So back to the dialogue. Compare and contrast the Church, OHCAC teachings and things we believe God wants us to know…look at the history of Moral teachings coming out of the Church and compare that with Protestant thought.

Now before you do anything else I want you to sit and think. You want me, others, Catholics to become more liberal in our thinking. I think about lots of stuff. The key is I don’t act on it…how do I know when I should or should not act on it? You need to answer this for yourself. I will give you a hint…

Read this, start to finish…

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor_en.html

After you read this come back to me and tell me if you truly want to change everyone’s mind into a liberal thinking mind where you can decide this or that so that you can do whatever it is you want to do…

The burden of telling someone to follow God’s Will relieves me of the burden that I may be leading someone into harm. Can you honestly say that you are willing to take the responsibility for just one person that you lead into your way of thinking for everything they do as a result of what you want them to do…I can honestly relieve myself of that responsibility by asking you and everyone else to think about doing God’s Will as discussed by John Paul II…knowing that whatever actions they take will be in concert with right thinking…and as John Paul says…true freedom is doing God’s Will. You want to be free…I want you to be free…

Get back to me.

 

[Roy5]

Thank you for your civil response. I still am interested in reading your answer to my questions regarding the Coptic Orthodox. I know one of them quite well and I must say that he is not entirely friendly toward Catholicism. He seems to feel that the Papacy consolidated power because of the central position of Rome in the ancient world and not because of Peter’s position as first Pope… Etc.

** Now, as to Pope John Paul’s encyclical, I read it, perhaps a bit hastily**. By the way, I may have mentioned that I have heard in person four Popes - Pius XII in Rome back in my student days, then Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI when they were in New York. My own favorite was John XXIII. I admired the charisma and the energy of John Paul II, but he seems to have stacked the deck with very conservative church leadership. You know as well as I do that there is considerable difference of opinion within the church as to what direction the Church should move in this 21th century. I have one priest-friend who won’t listen to EWTN. “It turns my stomach,” he said to me. As you can tell. I am for reforms that will make the Church more relevant to the world we live in. Arguing that the Church must maintain traditions established 1500 and more years ago isn’t very persuasive.

** That focuses on one point I often make.** Back in the 3rd and 4th centuries, and later still, the fountain of knowledge was so limited compared with what we know today. The world was full of superstition, understanding the heavens was primitive, etc. I have read many of the Church Fathers and they were brilliant for their era, true, but brilliance isn’t enough if one’s suppositions are based on misinformation or insufficient information. When they wrote about heaven above the clouds and hell in the bowels of the earth, when they had no notion of the hugeness of the universe, when they saw God in anthropomorphic terms - God walked in the garden in the cool of the evening (the Mormons think somewhat similarly) - well, I don’t rely upon them for my theology today. Sorry. And I don’t rely on Luther or Calvin or Zwingli either. They knew more about the world than did Clement of Alexandria, Anselm, Jerome, Cyril of Jerusalem, Augustine, etc. Yet,I recall that Luther threw an inkwell at a demon of some sort, and they still took Ex. 22:18 seriously - ‘suffer not a witch to live’. How many women were put to death, mainly by Catholics in Europe but also by Puritans in New England.? And read Ex. 22:20 while you’re there. Agree with that? Kill 'em!

** There is so much to add, but you would see it as a newsletter, so I don’t know how much more to say**. The main problem obviously is authority. Not long ago I finished “Absolute Monarchs” by Norwich. What a struggle during the early centuries. I knew much about it already, but the book is a good review. All sorts of minority groups had to be oppressed, Heretics were killed. Consider Hus, as an example, and Wycliffe and Tyndale and Waldo, etc., precursors of the Reformation. If you believe that God was guiding the Catholic Church and therefore it made no mistakes, well, no problem. I don’t believe that. Various doctrines were debated and decided by majority votes, and the minority was declared heretical. And, by the way, the record of Christians of living in peace together is deplorable. Consider World War I, as an example. Christians killing Christians. World War II had much the same. The three fascist dictators all were Catholics if baptism makes someone a Catholic - Hitler, Mussolini and Franco.

**  Let me stop here. Of course I don't believe that the Bible is the inerrant world of God. **Like Protestant fundamentalists JPII in his encyclical seemed to flit around the scriptures, quoting from here and there. Most Catholics and Protestants need a good course in a mainline Protestant seminary to learn the scriptures as they really are. Do you actually affirm those myths in Gen. 1-11, believe that God ordered heinous crimes as contained in the OT, that Elisha called down the curse of the Lord on youth mocking his bald head and two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled 42 young people. Please. Give me a break.

** This is not to say that there isn’t wonderful message and considerable inspiration in the Bible.** We have to be selective, frankly. I honestly can’t believe that Jesus put demons into pigs which then rushed headlong down a cliff to their death. Do you believe that? If so, fine. But count me out. I consider that and other such stories as folklore that sprung up as a way of honoring Christ once his fame spread. The purpose may have been honorable, but the story is an exaggeration and more. You surely know that various non-canonical books have other miracles - like Jesus the boy blessing clay pigeons and they fly! Some Catholic traditions come from such books - like the names of Mary’s parents, for example. There is no record of them in scripture.

** God bless you and everybody else**. I pray for the day when Christianity will really try to live as Christ commanded. JPII in his encyclical puts proper emphasis upon the response Jesus gave when asked how to inherit eternal life. He emphasized righteous living - see Matt. 25 etc for more details. With that I agree.

 

[CopticChristian]

Thank you for your civil response. I still am interested in reading your answer to my questions regarding the Coptic Orthodox. I know one of them quite well and I must say that he is not entirely friendly toward Catholicism. He seems to feel that the Papacy consolidated power because of the central position of Rome in the ancient world and not because of Peter’s position as first Pope… Etc.

** Now, as to Pope John Paul’s encyclical, I read it, perhaps a bit hastily**. By the way, I may have mentioned that I have heard in person four Popes - Pius XII in Rome back in my student days, then Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI when they were in New York. My own favorite was John XXIII. I admired the charisma and the energy of John Paul II, but he seems to have stacked the deck with very conservative church leadership. You know as well as I do that there is considerable difference of opinion within the church as to what direction the Church should move in this 21th century. I have one priest-friend who won’t listen to EWTN. “It turns my stomach,” he said to me. As you can tell. I am for reforms that will make the Church more relevant to the world we live in. Arguing that the Church must maintain traditions established 1500 and more years ago isn’t very persuasive.

**   There is so much to add, but you would see it as a newsletter, so I don't know how much more to say**. The main problem obviously is authority. Not long ago I finished "Absolute Monarchs" by Norwich. What a struggle during the early centuries. I knew much about it already, but the book is a good review. All sorts of minority groups had to be oppressed, Heretics were killed. Consider Hus, as an example, and Wycliffe and Tyndale and Waldo, etc., precursors of the Reformation. If you believe that God was guiding the Catholic Church and therefore it made no mistakes, well, no problem. I don't believe that. Various doctrines were debated and decided by majority votes, and the minority was declared heretical. And, by the way, the record of Christians of living in peace together is deplorable. Consider World War I, as an example. Christians killing Christians. World War II had much the same. The three fascist dictators all were Catholics if baptism makes someone a Catholic - Hitler, Mussolini and Franco.

** God bless you and everybody else**. I pray for the day when Christianity will really try to live as Christ commanded. JPII in his encyclical puts proper emphasis upon the response Jesus gave when asked how to inherit eternal life. He emphasized righteous living - see Matt. 25 etc for more details. With that I agree.

Roy,

You wanted a dialogue with me by suggesting I engage you on something you wanted to speak of concerning Coptics, Orthodoxy, etc. I asked you to read an Encyclical that I thought would clarify your thoughts and free you.

You have discounted my request saying you read hastily. This is a sign that you choose not to hear anything from me and why I chose not to engage you in any other dialogue. Why should I? You discount my one suggestion hastily and then ask for information unrelated. You find what I say to have no value. I value myself as I do you. I cannot dialogue with someone that devalues what I offer. I believe that it would fall on deaf ears and be offensive to me. Why would anyone want to open up to you.

Study. Here are some terms you may find helpful. Myopic, hardened, incurable, intractable, inveterate, irredeemable, irreparable, recidivous, uncorrectable, unreformed and incorrigible.

Here is a lesson for you. You report on all your encounters. I believe that when you encounter anyone that has solid beliefs, anyone that has something to offer, anyone that does not accept your paradigm, you rant like you did in this post that you offered in response to my request.

This suggests that you only attract those that rant with you and you then believe that the world is ranting like you giving you the false belief of the world you have desingned and live in. All these reports of what you want others to believe is nothing more than your enounters of those that listen to your ranting, confirm your rants and pessimism and you then report this as the norm. You attract those that disagree. You just rejected me and I hope everyone sees that when someone offers you the opportunity to engage in meaningful dialogue you discount it. Those in the world that come to you in the same way probably dust their sandles and since you never dialogue with them after you dismiss them as you did me you never hear anything except confirmation of your pessimism. This is sad.

Thank you…

 

[Roy5]

**CopticChristian **

** Why you thank me after throwing a molotov cocktail in my direction is a mystery - like much theology**. Obviously, when a dialogue moves from issues to insults I guess it’s time to stop dialoguing. I’m agreeable to that, though I do enjoy reading your posts because they certainly set forward a strong defense of traditional Catholicism. But you seem very, very displeased when challenged.

** A couple concluding points**. Perhaps you have plenty of time to read lengthy encyclicals and the huge amount of other material that interest you. I get five newspapers a day, plus four monthly Catholic periodicals (plus Our Sunday Visitor), and many others, and this past week - for example - I purchased three new books (including the 2012 World Almanac, which is both informative and time-consuming). You attack me because I confessed that I read JPII’s encyclical rapidly. Sorry about that. I also participate in a wide variety of community activities and give attention to family concerns. Besides, I saw nothing in the encyclical which was new. I followed JPII and his pronouncements rather closely. Etc. It looks to me as though you want to disengage and/or demean me. Fine. No problem. Your choice.

 ** Oh, and I also like to watch certain things on TV, including EWTN and such programs as "Sunday morning" on CBS.** Did you happen to see it this morning? The first segment was about that hospital in the West  - is it St. Joseph's in Phoenix, my memory is quite fallible? - the hospital which permitted a medical abortion because the medical profession there believed that a prolonged pregnancy meant the death of both mother and baby. A nun on the hospital ethics committee agreed. She was excommunicated. The diocese de-certified the hospital as Catholic, etc. The pregnant woman, as I recall has four other young children - to me an important factor.

 **Question for you.** Do you feel that the medical abortion under those circumstances should not have been performed? Do you agree with the excommunication of the nun and the de-certification of the hospital? (I understand that in exchange for her resignation from the ethics committee her excommunication has been lifted.) If you would have opposed the medical procedure and approve of the excommunication, you are a stellar traditionalist Catholic. My guess is that the large majority of American Catholics would say that that particular abortion was sad but moral. I would take that position myself. One has to consider what the mother's death would mean to those four children and their grieving father. As for the baby, God will provide eternal joy and peace. Limbo seems to be out now.

** By the way, I keep waiting to hear your answer to my questions about the Coptic Orthdox Church to which most Egyptians Christians belong?** I guess I don’t understand why that presents a problem. It isn’t everyday that I am in touch with a Coptic Roman Catholic (you’re the only one I know of) and I am interested in how you assess that church and the overall situation in Egypt. I try my best to follow religion of all kinds in all parts of the world. A special interest of mine. Besides, I’ve visited Egypt and Coptics there. Religion, of course, could be a force for good in the world instead of adding to fierce tribalism and discrimination such as we witness in Egypt and elsewhere. I certainly don’t want the beloved Christianity I embrace to become anything like Islamic extremism.

** God bless you anyway**. Christ encouraged us to love our ‘enemies’, which I assume includes those who seem to choose that designation. Hope I haven’t caused you too much aggravation and I apologize if I have. I will continue to pray that religion becomes a bridge rather than a barrier. My guess is that you agree with that but believe that that will happen only when the world becomes Roman Catholic. True, or an exaggeration on my part?

 

[15thClub]

jmoneyideas, purchase for your own private collection; but don’t be afraid to share, Father Baron’s 10 series (5 DVD set) on Catholicism and also buy AND READ the book of the same title. You WILL see the historical beauty and the richness of the Catholic Doctrine and Father Baron comments about the times the Church has “slipped.” I too am a recent convert to the Catholic Church after 18 years of independent reading, research and personal inquiry. Father Barron’s work finally sealed the deal for me to become a full Catholic. Our Church is over two thousand years old and imperfect sinful human beings have been entrusted to lead. Does this make the Church as commanded and headed by Christ imperfect? No! The Church is ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC. There has always been and always will be anger and opposition to Christ’s Church. Where does He say that “If the world hates you it is because it hated me first.” Our Church is the mirror to the evil in the world and evil does not like to see itself in the mirror. There is also much misunderstanding about how the Church develops and arrives at its doctrines. Such development can take years with tremendous debate, struggle, and of course prayer. I don’t think the anger will ever cease but when face with the anger, meet it with calm and love (Father Barron gives an excellent treatise on this in Episode Two) and always remember, our Church will takes some hits from the world and sometimes from within but remember that Christ’s promise is sure, “The gates of Hell shall not prevail” against His Church.

 

[CopticChristian]

**]CopticChristian **

** Why you thank me after throwing a molotov cocktail in my direction is a mystery - like much theology
Your choice.

 **Question for you.**** Do you feel that the medical abortion under those circumstances should not have been performed? Do you agree with the excommunication of the nun and the de-certification of the hospital?

I certainly don’t want the beloved Christianity I embrace to become anything like Islamic extremism.

** God bless you anyway QUOTE]**

Roy,

I don’t know what Christianity you embrace. You deny that the Bible is inerrant and you lose me there. Concerning the Protestants in Egypt. They have encouraged and have aided in increased Divorce rates. Concerning the nun. I don’t know the Particulars. I suggest you watch the movie “The Cardinal”. Lets examine the consequences of your liberal thinking you want others to embrace.

1. Divorce.

edivorcepapers.com/divorce-statistics/barna-divorce-statistics.html

Barna Study of Divorce. Catholics & Lutherans have an alarming 21% Divorce rate. Mainline Protestants have a 25% Divorce rate with Baptists and the Non-denominationalists leading the pack with 29% and 34% respectively.

1. Abortion

abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as “Born-again/Evangelical”.

1. Premarital Sex

brewright.blogspot.com/2007/05/christians-and-rates-of-premarital-sex.html

National Survey of Family Growth based on a question of whether respondents have ever had premarital sex, found that while Catholics have a high rate of premarital sex Protestants lead the pack in the most active of them all.

1. Homosexuality

pewforum.org/Gay-Marriage-and-Homosexuality/Most-Mainline-Protestants-Say-Society-Should-Accept-Homosexuality.aspx

Most Protestants are accepting Homosexuality as The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, conducted by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life, finds that majorities of both denominations say that homosexuality is a way of life that should be accepted by society.

religions.pewforum.org/pdf/table-views-about-homosexuality-by-protestant-denomination.pdf

Views About Homosexuality by Protestant Denomination

1. Sexual Abuse

reformation.com/CSA/allabuse.html

Insurance companies receive from Protestant churches each year about 260 reports involving allegations of sexual abuse committed against minors. This is LESS than the annual number of 228 abuse incidents reported against Catholic priests. That reality is particularly noteworthy because Catholics keep track of even “credible accusations,” which Southern Baptists don’t even bother to determine or keep records on.

You realize that Divorce, Abortion, Premarital sex, homosexuality and sexual abuse are part of our humanity. Yes it exists with Catholics and as you see Protestants do nothing to stem the tide and in fact increase the number and add to the problem. You want anyone listening to you to embrace liberal thinking. As I said examine the consequences.

If you believe that the world you live in is filled with Protestants and Catholics just getting along and everything is fine then you know nothing of the Ulster Irish and the plight of the Irish Catholic or the persecution of the Palestinian Christians. Study the history of the Irish Catholic and tell me when you can honestly tell me that Protestants are just loving brothers to the Catholic. When Irish Catholics came to this country, Ulster Irish/Protestants were here first…there were no jobs for Catholics. It was said when building the railraod…don’t use slaves, they cost money…use the Irish Catholic…

Study these sites…

inmotionmagazine.com/persec.html

washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/nireland/overview.htm

Let me know when you are convinced that your liberal thinking will cause change in this forum.

 

[Kristin234]

http://www.edivorcepapers.com/divorce-statistics/barna-divorce-statistics.html

Barna Study of Divorce. Catholics & Lutherans have an alarming 21% Divorce rate. Mainline Protestants have a 25% Divorce rate with Baptists and the Non-denominationalists leading the pack with 29% and 34% respectively.

1. Abortion

abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as “Born-again/Evangelical”.

1. Premarital Sex

brewright.blogspot.com/2007/05/christians-and-rates-of-premarital-sex.html

National Survey of Family Growth based on a question of whether respondents have ever had premarital sex, found that while Catholics have a high rate of premarital sex Protestants lead the pack in the most active of them all.

1. Homosexuality

pewforum.org/Gay-Marriage-and-Homosexuality/Most-Mainline-Protestants-Say-Society-Should-Accept-Homosexuality.aspx

Most Protestants are accepting Homosexuality as The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, conducted by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life, finds that majorities of both denominations say that homosexuality is a way of life that should be accepted by society.

religions.pewforum.org/pdf/table-views-about-homosexuality-by-protestant-denomination.pdf

Views About Homosexuality by Protestant Denomination

1. Sexual Abuse

reformation.com/CSA/allabuse.html

Insurance companies receive from Protestant churches each year about 260 reports involving allegations of sexual abuse committed against minors. This is LESS than the annual number of 228 abuse incidents reported against Catholic priests. That reality is particularly noteworthy because Catholics keep track of even “credible accusations,” which Southern Baptists don’t even bother to determine or keep records on.

You realize that Divorce, Abortion, Premarital sex, homosexuality and sexual abuse are part of our humanity. Yes it exists with Catholics and as you see Protestants do nothing to stem the tide and in fact increase the number and add to the problem. You want anyone listening to you to embrace liberal thinking. As I said examine the consequences.

I didn’t look at the websites so I don’t know if you are referring to Protestants & Catholics in just the US or in the world, but in the US there are more Protestants than there are Catholics so it would make sense for the numbers to be higher.

When I was in high school almost all of the girls that were getting pregnant were Catholic, but I would never use that in an argument because my high school was predominantly Catholic. That would make it look like the Catholic girls were having more premarital sex than the Protestant girls when in reality they probably weren’t it’s just that there were way more Catholics.

 

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian;8652424:

I didn’t look at the websites so I don’t know if you are referring to Protestants & Catholics in just the US or in the world, but in the US there are more Protestants than there are Catholics so it would make sense for the numbers to be higher.

When I was in high school almost all of the girls that were getting pregnant were Catholic, but I would never use that in an argument because my high school was predominantly Catholic. That would make it look like the Catholic girls were having more premarital sex than the Protestant girls when in reality they probably weren’t it’s just that there were way more Catholics.

It is difficult to get stats for the world. These are USA stats. Roy is in the USA and discusses the benefit of liberal thinking in the USA. This is the way of the USA and liberal thinking.

Today Protestants are not the majority…as you know they are falling behind the 50% mark…

 

[mark_a]

So I am a new Convert and I have been doing all my reading and studying I can since starting my Journey into the Church. It really saddens me about all the Anti-Catholic things that are out there from other Denominations and Atheist ect. I mean literally just a second ago I came across a Video of a Preacher at some church Bashing the head of a Statue of Mary. The wrath and Hate Filled speech coming from this man and his congregation was so troubling. I then decided to continue my Journey on Youtube which is anti pretty most all Christianity but I will tell you the Hate towards the Church is so sad in my eyes.

Then I think back to a comment from Archbishop Fulton Sheen “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing.”

What is so sad is more towards fellow Christians. Having So Called church leads preaching hate is a serious detriment and completely off base from what Christ died for. Sorry to be ranting but it really bothered me. I have known many Catholics through out my years and have a hard to recalling anything of the sort from them. I highly doubt you will find anything of the Sort on Youtube as well.

First, welcome home!!

The Catholic Church with it’s authoritative office, the papacy, is the big dog. None of these also-rans have a chance to be the big dog until one of them can take down the big dog.

It’s tough bein’ th’ big dawg on the porch!