Anger towards the Church is so SAD!

[CopticChristian]

The responses I get seem to fall mainly into two categories.

  (1) Those who regard what I am saying as an **egotistic exercise**. It's all about me. This is common reply. When someone challenges the status quo it's easy to use the ad hominem argument, aiming at the person and his ascribed motives rather than at the argument.

  (2) **What do you believe, anyway**? My whole point is to permit more flexibility when it comes to the doctrines and practices of the Church. What I believe as an individual is far less important than belonging to a Church that allows independent thinking.

** **One illustration. The Immaculate Conception/****B]. Now, here is a doctrine which isn’t found in scripture, was not universally observed in the Church until 1476, and was not defined until 1864 (if I recall the year correctly). If people can and wish to accept it, no problem. However, Catholics today are not illiterate peasants and are becoming increasingly uncomfortable being told what they must accept.

 I have a major problem with a dogma like the Immaculate Conception. Why? To begin with, and most important, I'm inclined to **doubt the whole concept of original sin **and certainly don't take the story of Adam and Eve literally.  Is there sin in conception per se?  Or, is it part of the plan of God - a divine gift, if you will? I tend to believe the latter. 

  Personally, I don't have the answers to many theological questions, but why should I? I am not God nor do I find it easy to believe that any Church is God. A study of church history shows that **doctrines came about in large part through political maneuvering** by various factions over the years. One heresy after another was oppressed. Arians. Adoptianists. Modalists. Monophysites. Nestorians. Gnostics. Pelagians. Albigensians. Hussites. Waldensians. Many more. Many were slaughtered as a result.  

 There seems to be plenty of evidence - for example - that **Mariology became more and** **more elaborate** as the centuries moved along. This is not to demean Mary in any way. Being the mother of Christ certainly merits our love and devotion. But I wonder if the Church has gone too far, perhaps influenced by the culture in which women deities played a major role. I suspect that Mary, a woman of great humility, is troubled by the level of veneration today.

  **God bless everybody.** Let's work to make religion a bridge and not a barrier. We can begin that process by permitting more freedom of belief on some of the issues that divide us. Mariology is one area where more flexibility should exist.

Roy,

You do not understand the notion of Kingdom and the Gebira or you would understand Mary. You should study the Davidic Kingdon, Kingdom of Solomon, Bathseba…Know that the Ark of the Covenant was lost and the third temple had no Ark…give it a try…

 

[jmoneyideas]

Roy5 : ** One illustration. The Immaculate Conception**. Now, here is a doctrine which isn’t found in scripture, was not universally observed in the Church until 1476, and was not defined until 1864 (if I recall the year correctly). If people can and wish to accept it, no problem. However, Catholics today are not illiterate peasants and are becoming increasingly uncomfortable being told what they must accept.

Roy so then you feel the same since we are using dates to quote things here about the 500 year old Reformation and the whooping 30,000+ different ideas and beliefs of many protestant churches out there with all there Variation of Interpretation of Scripture. At least we can say the a lareger body of Christ the Catholic Church agree and beleive in this feast day.I go back to a statement i posted on a thread awhile back. Division is the work of the Devil and he is praying on ideas and thoughts of lost people that don’t have a strong foundation of belief structure.

 

[Roy5]

Coptic Christian **Gosh, I’ve always had trouble with that Bathsheba story. **David, that great King, favored of God, sees a beauty taking a bath, sends for her for sexual purposes, has her husband deliberately murdered, then marries her. She becomes the Queen Mother. Personally, I think any effort to relate her to Mary is an enormous insult to Mary.

**Then, of course, her famous son, Solomon, marries 700 wives and has 300 additional concubines**. Great on 'family values'! Yet, the Bible makes him out to be so wise. He was a wild perpetual adulterer - that's what he was - and brought pagan gods and goddesses into the palace.. I don't look to that era of history for any sort of example for our age. It seems to have been marked by constant warfare, vicious genocide, and flagrant promiscuity by the ruling class.

** I still forward to reading your comments on the Coptic Orthodox,** the vast majority of Coptic Christians. How do you feel about their Pope? Do you believe their church was founded by St. Mark, whom they claim as their first Pope? How do Egyptian Copts relate to Ethiopian and Eritrean Copts. Why do you hesitate to state your attitude in a few sentences. The Copts certainly have been much in the news and their future is precarious. I await you response.

** ** imoneyidea/**B]. Division. Well, I personally prefer freedom over required conformity. Just as I prefer democracy over totalitarianism. I think the 30,000 figure is crazy, but there are many differences among Protestants. Most of the major groups cooperate together through the National and World Council of Churches or (if evangelical) the National Association of Evangelicals. Christians can work together and have different doctrines. The soup kitchens in these parts involve Protestants, Catholicsm, Jews and others. That was a welcome change after Vatican II when the ban on Catholic-Protestant cooperation was lifted through the superb leadership of John XXIII. I worry some days that we may be going backward on ecumenism. Too many Catholics, certainly here on CAF, seem to regard it as ‘returning to Mother Church’, which is not what Protestants have in mind. If we really try, we can find a true spirit of unity without union. Most mainline Protestant denominations have it already.

** Oh, and by the way, I find enormous differences among Catholics**. The Magisterium may be of one mind, but Catholics I know disagree on a wide variety of issues - from clergy celibacy to transubstantiation, from ordination of women to the power of priests to absolve sinners.

 **These matters, as I have stated before, have caused me to distance myself from the faith on my paternal side.** I still have enormous sympathy for the wonderful work done by the Catholic Church - in education, in medical care, in feeding the hungry, etc. However, this insistence that we all must affirm certain non-essential doctrines causes serious self-inflicted wounds on the Body of Christ.

 **God bless everybody** - no exceptions.**

 

[jmoneyideas]

Coptic Christian **Gosh, I’ve always had trouble with that Bathsheba story. **David, that great King, favored of God, sees a beauty taking a bath, sends for her for sexual purposes, has her husband deliberately murdered, then marries her. She becomes the Queen Mother. Personally, I think any effort to relate her to Mary is an enormous insult to Mary.

**Then, of course, her famous son, Solomon, marries 700 wives and has 300 additional concubines**. Great on 'family values'! Yet, the Bible makes him out to be so wise. He was a wild perpetual adulterer - that's what he was - and brought pagan gods and goddesses into the palace.. I don't look to that era of history for any sort of example for our age. It seems to have been marked by constant warfare, vicious genocide, and flagrant promiscuity by the ruling class.

** I still forward to reading your comments on the Coptic Orthodox,** the vast majority of Coptic Christians. How do you feel about their Pope? Do you believe their church was founded by St. Mark, whom they claim as their first Pope? How do Egyptian Copts relate to Ethiopian and Eritrean Copts. Why do you hesitate to state your attitude in a few sentences. The Copts certainly have been much in the news and their future is precarious. I await you response.

** ** imoneyidea/****B]. Division. Well, I personally prefer freedom over required conformity. Just as I prefer democracy over totalitarianism. I think the 30,000 figure is crazy, but there are many differences among Protestants. Most of the major groups cooperate together through the National and World Council of Churches or (if evangelical) the National Association of Evangelicals. Christians can work together and have different doctrines. The soup kitchens in these parts involve Protestants, Catholicsm, Jews and others. That was a welcome change after Vatican II when the ban on Catholic-Protestant cooperation was lifted through the superb leadership of John XXIII. I worry some days that we may be going backward on ecumenism. Too many Catholics, certainly here on CAF, seem to regard it as ‘returning to Mother Church’, which is not what Protestants have in mind. If we really try, we can find a true spirit of unity without union. Most mainline Protestant denominations have it already.

** Oh, and by the way, I find enormous differences among Catholics**. The Magisterium may be of one mind, but Catholics I know disagree on a wide variety of issues - from clergy celibacy to transubstantiation, from ordination of women to the power of priests to absolve sinners.

 **These matters, as I have stated before, have caused me to distance myself from the faith on my paternal side.** I still have enormous sympathy for the wonderful work done by the Catholic Church - in education, in medical care, in feeding the hungry, etc. However, this insistence that we all must affirm certain non-essential doctrines causes serious self-inflicted wounds on the Body of Christ.

 **God bless everybody** - no exceptions.

REALLY, really wow. I am totally convinced that you are not really a Christian in my opinion. The fundamental difference between doctrine and belief in general is nothing like what even my radical protestant friends believe. I mean I really don’t know what your beliefs r and if you really do call yourself a Christian but I agree with Coptic Christian on this and I feel you are pushing a agenda. Next I fear you may say you agree with the New Atheists movement and have the Billboards “You Know its Just a mythr” up next to schools and churches. I don’t want to seem harsh or offend anyone but your stance seems so out there. Sorry to the Mods on here if I seem this way but wow just read some of what is being said…OK Goodnight and Godbless

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic Christian **Gosh, I’ve always had trouble with that Bathsheba story. **David, that great King, favored of God, sees a beauty taking a bath, sends for her for sexual purposes, has her husband deliberately murdered, then marries her. She becomes the Queen Mother. Personally, I think any effort to relate her to Mary is an enormous insult to Mary.

**Then, of course, her famous son, Solomon, marries 700 wives and has 300 additional concubines**. Great on 'family values'! Yet, the Bible makes him out to be so wise. He was a wild perpetual adulterer - that's what he was - and brought pagan gods and goddesses into the palace.. I don't look to that era of history for any sort of example for our age. It seems to have been marked by constant warfare, vicious genocide, and flagrant promiscuity by the ruling class.

** I still forward to reading your comments on the Coptic Orthodox,** the vast majority of Coptic Christians. How do you feel about their Pope? Do you believe their church was founded by St. Mark, whom they claim as their first Pope? How do Egyptian Copts relate to Ethiopian and Eritrean Copts. Why do you hesitate to state your attitude in a few sentences. The Copts certainly have been much in the news and their future is precarious. I await you response.

** ** imoneyidea/****B]. Division. Well, I personally prefer freedom over required conformity. Just as I prefer democracy over totalitarianism. I think the 30,000 figure is crazy, but there are many differences among Protestants. Most of the major groups cooperate together through the National and World Council of Churches or (if evangelical) the National Association of Evangelicals. Christians can work together and have different doctrines. The soup kitchens in these parts involve Protestants, Catholicsm, Jews and others. That was a welcome change after Vatican II when the ban on Catholic-Protestant cooperation was lifted through the superb leadership of John XXIII. I worry some days that we may be going backward on ecumenism. Too many Catholics, certainly here on CAF, seem to regard it as ‘returning to Mother Church’, which is not what Protestants have in mind. If we really try, we can find a true spirit of unity without union. Most mainline Protestant denominations have it already.

** Oh, and by the way, I find enormous differences among Catholics**. The Magisterium may be of one mind, but Catholics I know disagree on a wide variety of issues - from clergy celibacy to transubstantiation, from ordination of women to the power of priests to absolve sinners.

 **These matters, as I have stated before, have caused me to distance myself from the faith on my paternal side.** I still have enormous sympathy for the wonderful work done by the Catholic Church - in education, in medical care, in feeding the hungry, etc. However, this insistence that we all must affirm certain non-essential doctrines causes serious self-inflicted wounds on the Body of Christ.

 **God bless everybody** - no exceptions.

Then lets start with this…

1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

 

[Roy5]

jmoneyideas

**Just to relieve your anxiety about my Christian faith, I am rather devout, actually.** I feel the presence of God everyday in many a way. What a miracle creation is, and how I love to recite various Psalms and the words of Jesus. I even can become a bit embarrassed sometimes because my eyes become misty when I hear a hallowed hymn or a favorite passage from scripture. I know that this should not embarrass me, but often I am with folks who don't feel similarly. In other words, I am about as far away from atheism as you can get because 'the heavens declare the glory of God'.

 **In fact, I am so overwhelmed by the majesty and mystery of the Lord that I believe that he is beyond human understanding.** Is it Psalm 119 - I forget - where we read that the knowledge of him is far from us?  We are finite beings, and how can we (or any church) pretend to know very much about all that? "Now we see through a glass darkly...."

 **This is one reason (in addition to an inquiring and inquisitive mind) that I have trouble with any church which basically tells us that it alone has the truth **and if we don't give full assent to that truth we are wrong. Call this relativism or whatever you wish. I call it intellectual freedom and I delight in it. What a joy and fulfillment to investigate and weigh and explore and even doubt, and to acknowledge that such knowledge 'is too wonderful for me'.

** The key to Christianity, in my view, is - as Jesus summed it up - love God and love one another. **Amen! Most of the complex doctrines, whether they concern Mary or the devil, Holy Communion or the after-life, are elaborate guesses. For those who are ready to subscribe to them, fine. No problem. But millions treasure the freedom to evaluate, challenge, interpret and even reject. This has absolutely nothing to do with atheism nor an absence of faith. It is, in part, a testimony to our trust in God. “I trust in God, wherever I may be, upon the land or on the rolling sea, so come what may, from day to day, my heavenly Father watches over me.” Verse 1 of one of my many favorite hymns,

** God bless everybody, of every creed, color, culture, and country**. And by that I include our Jewish brothers and sisters as well as all others who subscribe to the Golden Rule, whether Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains or others who seek to serve God by serving one another. There is considerable wisdom in other religions and, as Christians, we should acknowledge that. Unfortunately, religion too often serves as a fierce tribalism that divides us when we should be united as the heirs of our one, inscrutable, mighty and miraculous God.

** PS. By the way, where did you get that unusual ‘jmoneyideas’?** Just curious. Matt. 19:23-24 and I Tim. 6:10 pop into mind.

 

[CopticChristian]

jmoneyideas

**Just to relieve your anxiety about my Christian faith, I am rather devout, actually.** I feel the presence of God everyday in many a way. What a miracle creation is, and how** I love to recite various Psalms and the words of Jesus.** I even can become a bit embarrassed sometimes because my eyes become misty when I hear a hallowed hymn or a favorite passage from scripture. I know that this should not embarrass me, but often I am with folks who don't feel similarly. In other words, I am about as far away from atheism as you can get because 'the heavens declare the glory of God'.

 **In fact, I am so overwhelmed by the majesty and mystery of the Lord that I believe that he is beyond human understanding.** Is it Psalm 119 - I forget - where we read that the knowledge of him is far from us?  We are finite beings, and how can we (or any church) pretend to know very much about all that? "Now we see through a glass darkly...."

 **This is one reason (in addition to an inquiring and inquisitive mind) that I have trouble with any church which basically tells us that it alone has the truth **and if we don't give full assent to that truth we are wrong. Call this relativism or whatever you wish. I call it intellectual freedom and I delight in it. What a joy and fulfillment to investigate and weigh and explore and even doubt, and to acknowledge that such knowledge 'is too wonderful for me'.

** The key to Christianity, in my view, is - as Jesus summed it up - love God and love one another. **Amen! Most of the complex doctrines, whether they concern Mary or the devil, Holy Communion or the after-life, are elaborate guesses. For those who are ready to subscribe to them, fine. No problem. But millions treasure the freedom to evaluate, challenge, interpret and even reject. This has absolutely nothing to do with atheism nor an absence of faith. It is, in part, a testimony to our trust in God. “I trust in God, wherever I may be, upon the land or on the rolling sea, so come what may, from day to day, my heavenly Father watches over me.” Verse 1 of one of my many favorite hymns,

** God bless everybody, of every creed, color, culture, and country**. And by that I include our Jewish brothers and sisters as well as all others who subscribe to the Golden Rule, whether Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains or others who seek to serve God by serving one another. There is considerable wisdom in other religions and, as Christians, we should acknowledge that. Unfortunately, religion too often serves as a fierce tribalism that divides us when we should be united as the heirs of our one, inscrutable, mighty and miraculous God.

** PS. By the way, where did you get that unusual ‘jmoneyideas’?** Just curious. Matt. 19:23-24 and I Tim. 6:10 pop into mind.

Roy,

The Holy Spirit works in mysterious ways…I was going to ask you to look at and study Psalm 110…do that…think as to what it is saying…

1<> The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Don’t forget that tommorrow is a Holy Day of Obligation.

 

[jmoneyideas]

** PS. By the way, where did you get that unusual ‘jmoneyideas’?** Just curious. Matt. 19:23-24 and I Tim. 6:10 pop into mind.

Ok I will refer back to my previous statement on PAGE 7 of the Thread in what i believe you agenda is. As for my name Jmoneyideas it is in reference to a blog I had where I posted about different entrepreneurs ideas for things that had done and created for themselves but my name jmoney was given to me by mom when I was a actor at a young age so that should sum up enough about me and I take your particular Scripture reference a bit harsh but I guess I had that coming since my comment about what I still feel you agenda is.
I see your theological debate pretty baseless my friend All I can say is written below…

Matthew 24:13 But the one who perseveres to the end will be save.

Its a matter of what we will persevere against and If that includes coming into the truth and following what The Lord has laid before us. I pray that I myself will follow the path and stay inline with his decree. I will pray the same for you.

CopticChristian : Don’t forget that tommorrow is a Holy Day of Obligation.

Will be attending my very first one …

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Bashing the head of a statue of Mary? He was probably mentally ill or had some other serious problem. Don’t all Christians recognize who Mary was?

They recognize who Mary was, but they detest the idolatry of a human being. Therefore, when the pastor broke the statue, I am presuming he broke it to show hatred for statue-worship rather than to show hatred to Mary. Virtually all Christian denominations, and in fact, even Islam, recognize Mary as being a righteous woman.

 

[jmoneyideas]

Roy5

Watch these clips and let me know what you think

youtu.be/RWYwBDqFsuE

youtu.be/0KrkU-XsNbU

 

[Roy5]

** I saw Fr. Barron and most of his series** both on PBS and EWTN. Very effective presenter of the Catholic faith, without the sharp edges that so often characterize dialogues here on EWTN. Gifted man.

** I do not argue so much with Catholic history, but I do have a serious problem believing everything taught by the Church.** So, I guess this means I can never be a good Catholic, as that conformity is required. Like the Mormons, when the top official speaks in an authoritative manner, be he the Pope or the First President out in Salt Lake City, the faithful are supposed to nod their heads in affirmation.

** Now, let me reiterate that if people can do that - and millions can and do - fine. **Millions also accept the various teachings of Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and other faiths, too, and I respect them, too - well, most of them, not extremists like Al Qaeda, of course.

  **My problems are two-fold. One, as I keep repeating, is that I treasure the free and inquiring mind**. I enjoy studying how different people reach out for God. I am a person of faith myself, though I do have a problem if some teachings seems unreasonable and/or unscientific. When, for example, I watch the Lords tell us on EWNT aboujt the miracles of various saints I often have to say - please, give me a break! I find that such stories are often based on legends, at best, or even superstitions that earlier generations would accept much quicker than we do today.

** The second problem is that I simply think that God and this magnificent creation are beyond our human comprehension**. When the Bible was written, there were only primitive telescopes and no microscopes. Perhaps knowledge then was 1/1000th of the knowledge available today. Just google nearly any subject. Therefore, I don’t believe any Church has a monopoly on the truth. Read the first 11 chapters of Genesis, for example. One fable or legend after another. Eve from Adam’s rib? Stars, sun and moon created after earth? God produces languages as a punishment for building the Tower of Babel? The Lord deliberately drowns everybody but Noah who herds two of every living thing into his ark for 150 days? Really, now. Can most educated people today believe such stories?

** No, contrary to accusations made, I do not think that the Church should conform to my views**. It won’t. Fine. But I find I can’t conform to the church’s views either. And this is as true of evangelical Protestantism as traditional Catholicism. I have found that most mainline Protestants tolerate a wide variety of opinions on a wide variety of subjects, and that appeals to me. I’m referring, of course, to Episcopalianism, Methodism, Presbyterianism, the UCC and others. True, they seem to be losing out numerically. The evangelical Protestants seem to be growing, certainly among Hispanics. But numbers don’t prove anything, do they?
**God bless everybody who loves God and one another.** That's the test of true religion, not embracing any ancient creeds or belonging to any particular religious tribe.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

  **My problems are two-fold. One, as I keep repeating, is that I treasure the free and inquiring mind**. I enjoy studying how different people reach out for God. I am a person of faith myself, though I do have a problem if some teachings seems unreasonable and/or unscientific. When, for example, I watch the Lords tell us on EWNT aboujt the miracles of various saints I often have to say - please, give me a break! I find that such stories are often based on legends, at best, or even superstitions that earlier generations would accept much quicker than we do today.

I agree . Nice to see a freethinker on these forums .

 

[Whadyamean]

…When the Bible was written, there were only primitive telescopes and no microscopes. Perhaps knowledge then was 1/1000th of the knowledge available today. Just google nearly any subject.

(italics and underline mine.) Excuse me??? Are you claiming that the Bible was written in the 16th century?

 

[CopticChristian]

** I saw Fr. Barron and most of his series** both on PBS and EWTN. Very effective presenter of the Catholic faith, without the sharp edges that so often characterize dialogues here on EWTN. Gifted man.

** I do not argue so much with Catholic history, but I do have a serious problem believing everything taught by the Church.** So, I guess this means I can never be a good Catholic, as that conformity is required. Like the Mormons, when the top official speaks in an authoritative manner, be he the Pope or the First President out in Salt Lake City, the faithful are supposed to nod their heads in affirmation.

** Now, let me reiterate that if people can do that - and millions can and do - fine. **Millions also accept the various teachings of Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and other faiths, too, and I respect them, too - well, most of them, not extremists like Al Qaeda, of course.

  **My problems are two-fold. One, as I keep repeating, is that I treasure the free and inquiring mind**. I enjoy studying how different people reach out for God. I am a person of faith myself, though I do have a problem if some teachings seems unreasonable and/or unscientific. When, for example, I watch the Lords tell us on EWNT aboujt the miracles of various saints I often have to say - please, give me a break! I find that such stories are often based on legends, at best, or even superstitions that earlier generations would accept much quicker than we do today.

** The second problem is that I simply think that God and this magnificent creation are beyond our human comprehension**. When the Bible was written, there were only primitive telescopes and no microscopes. Perhaps knowledge then was 1/1000th of the knowledge available today. Just google nearly any subject. Therefore, I don’t believe any Church has a monopoly on the truth. Read the first 11 chapters of Genesis, for example. One fable or legend after another. Eve from Adam’s rib? Stars, sun and moon created after earth? God produces languages as a punishment for building the Tower of Babel? The Lord deliberately drowns everybody but Noah who herds two of every living thing into his ark for 150 days? Really, now. Can most educated people today believe such stories?

** No, contrary to accusations made,** I do not think that the Church should conform to my views****. It won’t. Fine. But I find I can’t conform to the church’s views either. And this is as true of evangelical Protestantism as traditional Catholicism. I have found that most mainline Protestants tolerate a wide variety of opinions on a wide variety of subjects, and that appeals to me. I’m referring, of course, to Episcopalianism, Methodism, Presbyterianism, the UCC and others. True, they seem to be losing out numerically. The evangelical Protestants seem to be growing, certainly among Hispanics. But numbers don’t prove anything, do they?

 **God bless everybody who loves God and one another.** That's the test of true religion, not embracing any ancient creeds or belonging to any particular religious tribe.

Roy,

Then understand that your point of view on Catholic Answers will be viewed as some sort of Protestant thought.

 

[Roy5]

Like millions of Catholics, I guess I protest certain things about Catholicism, especially its insistence upon total acceptance of each and every doctrine. I also disagree with such requirements as a celibate priesthood and the refusal to ordain women (at least as Deaconesses).

 Wasn't Phoebe a Deaconness in the early Church? Romans 16:1. I've read somewhere that when Pliny the Younger reported to the emporer Trajan after investigating Christians he said that he had tortured two maidens who were called Deaconesses. And isn't there evidence that Deaconesses in the early Church instructed female candidates for Confirmation, ministered to women who were sick, assisted with Baptisms, etc.? I believe Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians, certain Baptist and various Reformed groups have had Deaconesses over the years. 

Some posters appear to consider every Christian who takes issue with the Church to be a protestant. So, that, I presume, makes me a protester, hence a protestant?  Fine, if you want it that way, Labels are not that important to me. I certainly have nothing against the Protestants. Of the 56 who signed the Declaration of Independence - for example - 55 were Protestants. And every president except JFK, including Washington and Lincoln. A wild bunch of heretics, weren't they, those Founding Fathers!

 

[jmoneyideas]

** I saw Fr. Barron and most of his series** both on PBS and EWTN. Very effective presenter of the Catholic faith, without the sharp edges that so often characterize dialogues here on EWTN. Gifted man.

** I do not argue so much with Catholic history, but I do have a serious problem believing everything taught by the Church.** So, I guess this means I can never be a good Catholic, as that conformity is required. Like the Mormons, when the top official speaks in an authoritative manner, be he the Pope or the First President out in Salt Lake City, the faithful are supposed to nod their heads in affirmation.

** Now, let me reiterate that if people can do that - and millions can and do - fine. **Millions also accept the various teachings of Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and other faiths, too, and I respect them, too - well, most of them, not extremists like Al Qaeda, of course.

  **My problems are two-fold. One, as I keep repeating, is that I treasure the free and inquiring mind**. I enjoy studying how different people reach out for God. I am a person of faith myself, though I do have a problem if some teachings seems unreasonable and/or unscientific. When, for example, I watch the Lords tell us on EWNT aboujt the miracles of various saints I often have to say - please, give me a break! I find that such stories are often based on legends, at best, or even superstitions that earlier generations would accept much quicker than we do today.

** The second problem is that I simply think that God and this magnificent creation are beyond our human comprehension**. When the Bible was written, there were only primitive telescopes and no microscopes. Perhaps knowledge then was 1/1000th of the knowledge available today. Just google nearly any subject. Therefore, I don’t believe any Church has a monopoly on the truth. Read the first 11 chapters of Genesis, for example. One fable or legend after another. Eve from Adam’s rib? Stars, sun and moon created after earth? God produces languages as a punishment for building the Tower of Babel? The Lord deliberately drowns everybody but Noah who herds two of every living thing into his ark for 150 days? Really, now. Can most educated people today believe such stories?

** No, contrary to accusations made, I do not think that the Church should conform to my views**. It won’t. Fine. But I find I can’t conform to the church’s views either. And this is as true of evangelical Protestantism as traditional Catholicism. I have found that most mainline Protestants tolerate a wide variety of opinions on a wide variety of subjects, and that appeals to me. I’m referring, of course, to Episcopalianism, Methodism, Presbyterianism, the UCC and others. True, they seem to be losing out numerically. The evangelical Protestants seem to be growing, certainly among Hispanics. But numbers don’t prove anything, do they?

 **God bless everybody who loves God and one another.** That's the test of true religion, not embracing any ancient creeds or belonging to any particular religious tribe.

Omg. My case is closed. I hope i don’t get banned for this but r you kidding g me. BROTHER YOU HAVE A AGENDA. AND I WISH YOU WOULD STAY OFF MY THREAD. The truth is you r all over the place. I hope the MODS see this. Ihope this is the last time I post on my own thread about a subject you have totally changed.

 

[CollegeStudent3]

Yes, I see it way too often. Growing up in a primary Catholic community I never thought there was so much hatred, uninformative, and down right prejudice against the Catholic Church and Catholics in general.

Now at a Lutheran University it’s on a weekly basis that I get some sort of strange look when I share that I am a practicing Catholic. I hear a lot of mockery about seeing Mary as a goddess:shrug: and how I practice idolatry. I’ve found that there is not much I can say to change people’s minds they believe what they want to believe.

 

[Whadyamean]

Yes, I see it way too often. Growing up in a primary Catholic community I never thought there was so much hatred, uninformative, and down right prejudice against the Catholic Church and Catholics in general.

Now at a Lutheran University it’s on a weekly basis that I get some sort of strange look when I share that I am a practicing Catholic. I hear a lot of mockery about seeing Mary as a goddess:shrug: and how I practice idolatry. I’ve found that there is not much I can say to change people’s minds; they believe what they want to believe.

Doesn’t that last sentence apply, in your experience, to Catholics as well?

 

[Tony888]

Yes, I see it way too often. Growing up in a primary Catholic community I never thought there was so much hatred, uninformative, and down right prejudice against the Catholic Church and Catholics in general.

Now at a Lutheran University it’s on a weekly basis that I get some sort of strange look when I share that I am a practicing Catholic. I hear a lot of mockery about seeing Mary as a goddess:shrug: and how I practice idolatry. I’ve found that there is not much I can say to change people’s minds they believe what they want to believe.

Hey College Student,
They’ve probably never known a real Catholic before. They were spoon fed bigotry by their family/church - don’t get discouraged. Over time you can change the minds of those close to you. You just have to build your apologetics armor

 

[CollegeStudent3]

Hey College Student,
They’ve probably never known a real Catholic before. They were spoon fed bigotry by their family/church - don’t get discouraged. Over time you can change the minds of those close to you. You just have to build your apologetics armor

I’ve changed the minds of some of my friends…slowly. I’m the only Catholic out of my small group of friends. Most of them considered themselves non-denominational Christians and one is a Missouri Senate Lutheran. Finally, I have been able to convince them that I do not believe that just because they aren’t Catholic they are automatically going to hell. Interesting enough, most of them believe that if one is Atheist, Agnostic, Muslim, Jewish etc etc they are not going to Heaven. Even when I mention them not to throw out God’s mercy they shake their heads. They take saved by grace through faith extremely seriously and have stated that they believe an unrepentant, adulterous, murderer if he believes Jesus will be saved and will see the gates of Heaven before a charitable, practicing Jew.

So they do not consider me a statue worshiping idolatress anymore. However, even after much discussion they do not understand my honor of Mary as the virgin mother of Christ. We have gotten in arguments about Mary being ever virgin and well as Holy Days of Obligation. It can be frustrating at times, but debates with those who do not mirror in my faith help strengthen my own faith.

There are some people though who are discouraging and dismiss anything you say, that is what I consider the most frustrating. They will not even allow myself to defend my own religion, apparently they know more about me as a Papist than I do.