Anglican Catholic Church?

[Bookcat]

I do not know what she attended. Some Anglicans call themselves catholic.

But yes there is a Catholic Ordinariate (which is yes Catholic)

Here for example is the UK one ordinariate.org.uk/

 

[LutheranScholar]

Hi! I’ve been reading this thread with great interest and thought I might chime in here, for a minute. Why shouldn’t people identify with their group, in the Nicene Creed, do we not declare ourselves to be of " One, Holy, *Christian *and Apostolic Church?" Did not Dr. Luther want us to call ourselves " Evangelicals" rather than " Catholics" or even " Lutherans?" Look, as this is the opinion of a single Lutheran, I don’t see why we shouldn’t take pride in calling ourselves " Confessional Lutherans?" I understand that people are going to call themselves whatever they choose, but let’s face it… when people say " Catholic," they generally mean " one who identifies and holds membership in a parish affiliated with the See of Rome." If somebody who was part of some nondenominational church called himself " Lutheran" because he happened to be Protestant, I’m pretty sure I’d be somewhat irritated. Just a thought from a nooB.

 

[PRmerger]

Hi! I’ve been reading this thread with great interest and thought I might chime in here, for a minute. Why shouldn’t people identify with their group, in the Nicene Creed, do we not declare ourselves to be of " One, Holy, *Christian *and Apostolic Church?" Did not Dr. Luther want us to call ourselves " Evangelicals" rather than " Catholics" or even " Lutherans?" Look, as this is the opinion of a single Lutheran, I don’t see why we shouldn’t take pride in calling ourselves " Confessional Lutherans?" I understand that people are going to call themselves whatever they choose, but let’s face it… when people say " Catholic," they generally mean " one who identifies and holds membership in a parish affiliated with the See of Rome." If somebody who was part of some nondenominational church called himself " Lutheran" because he happened to be Protestant, I’m pretty sure I’d be somewhat irritated. Just a thought from a nooB.

I am not understanding your position. Are you saying you want to be identified as a Catholic, albeit a Catholic who is free from the authority from the pope?

Or are you agreeing with the Catholics here who say: it’s absurd to declare that there are Catholics subject to the Roman Pontiff, and then a subset of Catholics who are immune to his authority?

 

[LutheranScholar]

I am not understanding your position. Are you saying you want to be identified as a Catholic, albeit a Catholic who is free from the authority from the pope?

Or are you agreeing with the Catholics here who say: it’s absurd to declare that there are Catholics subject to the Roman Pontiff, and then a subset of Catholics who are immune to his authority?

I’m agreeing with you, P.R… I think it’s ridiculous to have a perfectly good " brand" such as Lutheran or Anglican, and then to try to say " I’m catholic with a small c!" That can only lead to confusion and endless qualifiers, when if one were simply to say " I’m Lutheran ( or Anglican, or Presbyterian, or Catholic, or Greek Orthodox)," the point is made and the position is clear.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m agreeing with you, P.R… I think it’s ridiculous to have a perfectly good " brand" such as Lutheran or Anglican, and then to try to say " I’m catholic with a small c!" That can only lead to confusion and endless qualifiers, when if one were simply to say " I’m Lutheran ( or Anglican, or Presbyterian, or Catholic, or Greek Orthodox)," the point is made and the position is clear.

Ah. Thank you for clarifying.

After I sent my original response to you I did re-read and think I understood your point.

Very good, then.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Ah. Thank you for clarifying.

After I sent my original response to you I did re-read and think I understood your point.

Very good, then.

If there’s going to be any kind of dialogue, the best way to go about it is to state your position in a perfectly clear way so that the others you’re speaking with don’t have to ask for clarification. One of the things that drew me to Lutheranism in the first place was the clear cut language used in the Confessions. There was nothing vague or unclear in the positions taken by the early Reformers. The Bible is inerrant. Jesus’ Body and Blood is, is, is in, with and under the Bread and Wine of the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper ( big decisive factor for me), Jesus *will *return bodily at the End of Time. Law and Gospel equally vital, Original Sin a reality… things like that.

 

[KjetilK]

That would be ideal.

You are correct.

As I have already stated, if you want to say your church is “catholic”, knock yourself out. Have at it. Go for it.

It’s when you say your church is just another rite in MY Catholic Church that I say, not so fast.

It’s simply gaga lala nonsense to proclaim that there’s a group of Catholic churches who are subject to the Holy Father, and then there’s another group of Catholics who are not subject to the Pope.

That’s simply Protestantism dressed up under the name “Catholic”.

It is a lie.

I’m gonna file this reply under the ‘I’m going to ignore the actual argument made because I do not have a reply’ file.

 

[KjetilK]

I would imagine that in all languages people have figured out how to distinguish one who is Catholic from one who is not. I don’t think they run around confused as to which Church a “Catholic” attends.

It’s called “Roman.” Just ask Pope Pius XII.

 

[PRmerger]

It’s called “Roman.” Just ask Pope Pius XII.

What about Ruthenian Catholics? They are NOT Roman.

Yet they are Catholic.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m gonna file this reply under the ‘I’m going to ignore the actual argument made because I do not have a reply’ file.

The argument you presented was that the Church has never asked the Orthodox Church to remove their “Catholic” title.

Yet you provided not a single piece of evidence to support your argument.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

 

[KjetilK]

Why shouldn’t people identify with their group, in the Nicene Creed, do we not declare ourselves to be of " One, Holy, *Christian *and Apostolic Church?"

No, we are not. We declare ourselves to be of " One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church." That you have chosen to change the word of the creed is your business.

 

[PRmerger]

It’s called “Roman.” Just ask Pope Pius XII.

And what about Chaldean Catholics? They are NOT Roman.

Yet they are Catholic.

 

[KjetilK]

What about Ruthenian Catholics? They are NOT Roman.

Yet they are Catholic.

Yes, they are. Again, ask Pope Pius XII. In Humani Generis he used ‘Roman’ to describe all Catholics in communion with Rome: “The Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.” Of course I don’t agree with this, but I recognise that the Pope used ‘Roman’ to distinguish those Catholics who are in communion with Rome from those Catholics who are not.

 

[KjetilK]

The argument you presented was that the Church has never asked the Orthodox Church to remove their “Catholic” title.

Yet you provided not a single piece of evidence to support your argument.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

This is the argument I provided (and which you chose to ignore, probably because you didn’t have any reply):

There is nothing in the word ‘catholic’ itself that says you have to be in communion with Rome. In fact, if we go back to the first instance of the word, as far as we know, in the Epistle of St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, we see that the one thing needed for catholicity is to be in communion with one’s valid bishop:

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.

He binds catholicity to being in communion with one’s valid bishop. We find this also in Lumen gentium 21, which states that the Church is where the people gather around their bishop: “In the bishops, therefore, for whom priests are assistants, Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Supreme High Priest, is present in the midst of those who believe.”

Now, the Roman Catholic Church recognises the validity of the ordination of orthodox priests and bishops (including archbishops and patriarchs). Following that recognition, and following St. Ignatius’ definition of catholicity, the Orthodox are catholic. And if the Orthodox are catholic, your assertion is wrong.

Are you suggesting St. Ignatius was wrong?

 

[SteveVH]

It’s called “Roman.” Just ask Pope Pius XII.

Unless, of course, you belong to one of the many Eastern Rite Catholic Churches who are in communion with the Bishop of Rome. I’ll bet they know how to find their Church as well.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, they are. Again, ask Pope Pius XII. In Humani Generis he used ‘Roman’ to describe all Catholics in communion with Rome: “The Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.” Of course I don’t agree with this, but I recognise that the Pope used ‘Roman’ to distinguish those Catholics who are in communion with Rome from those Catholics who are not.

It is correct to say that “The Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.”

But that does NOT mean that the Ruthenian, Coptic, Chaldean, etc etc etc are Roman.

Nor does it mean that they are not Catholic.

Imagine if I said: Asians and Chinese are one and the same thing.

But that doesn’t mean that Japanese, Malays, Koreans, etc are not Asians.

It’s simply making a statement about one group. The largest group.

 

[SteveVH]

I’m agreeing with you, P.R… I think it’s ridiculous to have a perfectly good " brand" such as Lutheran or Anglican, and then to try to say " I’m catholic with a small c!" That can only lead to confusion and endless qualifiers, when if one were simply to say " I’m Lutheran ( or Anglican, or Presbyterian, or Catholic, or Greek Orthodox)," the point is made and the position is clear.

And we actually have no beef with using catholic with a small c.

 

[LutheranScholar]

No, we are not. We declare ourselves to be of " One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church." That you have chosen to change the word of the creed is your business.

It seems, sir, if any change to the creed was done at all, it was done either by Martin Luther or one of his followers. " One, Holy,* Christian *and Apostolic Church" is in Luther’s Small Catechism, Third Article. ourshepherd.org/Small_Catechism.pdf
I do agree that the face of Confessional Lutheran Christianity in America is our business and the business of any Lutheran church in America who faithfully holds to the truth entire contained in the Book of Concord including its Formula. Of course, my church descends from German Lutherans, who might hold a slightly stricter interpretation of the Lutheran Confessions than their Scandinavian counterparts. Of course, holding to the Confessions is what being Confessional is all about.

 

[KjetilK]

It is correct to say that “The Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.”

But that does NOT mean that the Ruthenian, Coptic, Chaldean, etc etc etc are Roman.

Yes, that is exactly what it means. It is pretty clear that pope Pius XII used ‘Roman’ as ‘those in communion with the Roman Pontiff.’

Imagine if I said: Asians and Chinese are one and the same thing.

Then you would be wrong.

But that doesn’t mean that Japanese, Malays, Koreans, etc are not Asians.

Yes, it would

It’s simply making a statement about one group. The largest group.

No, it’s not. If you said “Asians and Chinese are one and the same thing,” you would be saying that only the Chinese are Asians.

 

[KjetilK]

It seems, sir, if any change to the creed was done at all, it was done either by Martin Luther or one of his followers. " One, Holy,* Christian *and Apostolic Church" is in Luther’s Small Catechism, Third Article. ourshepherd.org/Small_Catechism.pdf
I do agree that the face of Confessional Lutheran Christianity in America is our business and the business of any Lutheran church who faithfully holds to the truth entire contained in the Book of Concord including its Formula. Of course, my church descends from German Lutherans, who might hold a slightly stricter interpretation of the Lutheran Confessions than their Scandinavian counterparts.

Luther’s Small Cathechism is not the Nicene Creed. You expressly referenced the Nicene Creed. In the Latin original of the Book of Concord, the Nicene Creed (and the Apostles’ Creed) uses catholicam.