Anglican Ordinariate (Gathering of Anglicans coming home to Rome)

[Bluegoat]

As far as belief-stretchers, it’s tough to say. I respect BlueGoat’s unwillingness to claim to accept these doctrines and to stay Anglican. She has a more Orthodox (big O) approach to the atonement than I do. I have a more Augustinian/Anselmian view of Atonement so I’m better-suited to Catholicism perhaps than she is.

You know, to some extent the problems I have with indulgences gave rise to my sympathy to the eastern view of atonement. In and of itself, there are lots of things that I think are appealing about the Western model, not least that I think the language comes out of good Biblical sources. But then the East says - “but look, it gives rise to this really problematic view and doctrines in Catholicism, and then to these other seriously flawed Protestant heresies - all from a vie of atonement based primarily on the merit model.” And I find I have to say, well yes that does indeed seem to be the case. So maybe it is a problem to use this model as the primary one. It’s not that I find the model itself such a problem - it’s that other people don’t seem to be able to deal with it without getting crazy ideas!

At this point, I would love to see some contingents of Anglicans making some kind of entry as a group into Orthodoxy. I am pretty sure that the Communion isn’t going to hold things together, and I am inclined to think that Orthodoxy is more representative of the best things in Anglicanism than Catholicism is.

 

[Hesychios]

Fr. Phillips of Our Lady of the Atonement (Roman Catholic Church) has been hosting an event for Anglicans in San Antonio that was put together on short notice and attracted 125 people from all over the US Canada. He appears to be quite dynamic and has built a strong church and school (see link above) and is a possibility for the ordinariate (talked about anyway but no one knows).

More than 125 people are attending the conference, approximately 80 of them clerics, mostly from the Anglican Church in America, including Archbishop Falk and Bishops Campese and Moyer. Several Anglican Use pastors and priests are present as well as priests from the Anglican Catholic Church of Canada led by Bishop Botterill and priests from the Anglican Church of Canada as well as the Episcopal Church. The mood is described as being from positive to joyous as people have an opportunity to meet one another, pray together, and begin to plan for a shared future.

This morning, Fr. Phillips celebrated an Anglican Use Low Mass and Archbishop Falk was the celebrant at an Anglican Mass from the American Edition of the Anglican Missal. After sharing Morning Prayer, conference participants came together with the students of the 550-strong Atonement Academy, packing the church for Sung Mass according to the Book of Divine Worship, which was described as “incredibly moving.”

It appears the stage is set for the preservation of the beautiful orthodox Anglican liturgy and culture within the Roman Catholic church. It will be interesting to see how many Anglicans take advantage of the offer from the Pope. It will also infuse new orthodox clergy into the Catholic Church.

Is there anything happening in Illinois?

 

[Bluegoat]

So this is not taught in the Anglican tradition?

Since the Anglican tradition is decidedly western I might have assumed it was part of the package. However, I can agree with you, it is bad theology, and very likely something that should be corrected before any communion between the Papacy and the Orthodox is contemplated.

But I believe that Father Martin’s original complaint was that indulgences were sold, which would be a sin (selling the gift of God) permitted through a dispensation from the Pope.

However, if there really is no treasury of merit to begin with, then I suppose selling it would be a different kind of sin altogether …

No, not at all. Though goodness knows, some Anglo-papists get up to some crazy stuff. But the Articles of Religion are pretty hard on them:

XIV. OF WORKS OF SUPEREROGATION.

VOLUNTARY Works besides, over and above, God’s Commandments, which they call Works of Supererogation, cannot be taught without arrogancy and impiety: for by them men do declare, that they do not only render unto God as much as they are bound to do, but that they do more for his sake, than of bounden duty is required: whereas Christ saith plainly, When ye have done all that are commanded to you, say, We are unprofitable servants.

Anglicanism I think has rejected a number of ideas that would be considered Western developments of the Catholic Church. In some ways I think it is fair to say that in the break from Rome there was an attempt to move back from some of these developments of doctrine, which were seen to be unjustified. I think even the idea of faith alone could be understood that way to some degree (though whether or not it is successful is a good question.)

 

[Edmundus1581]

It’s pretty much the nail in the coffin for me. I couldn’t go to Rome with this doctrine in place, even if I managed to clear up everything else. Anglicans are all over the place, but at least one can be orthodox. Orthodoxy is different for a Westerner, but I can’t think of anything equivalent to this problem. There is no way I can assent to indulgences and surrounding doctrines… I’ve also noticed it seems to be kept quiet these days, which bothers me.

Not true. Indulgences are clearly described in the Catechism, and are issued from time-to-time by Rome. The distinction between plenary and partial indulgences is still maintained. For instance, Pope Benedict decreed certain plenary and partial indulgences for the recent year of the priest

I personally perform actions with the intention of gaining an indulgence, for my deceased relatives or myself, quite frequently. Perhaps one doesn’t often hear about indulgences in Catholic life, as it is very much “business as usual”.

If Catholics don’t proclaim and practice a particular “problematic” doctrine with the same visibility that non-Catholics denounce it, that doesn’t mean they are attempting to cover it up.

 

[Bluegoat]

Not true. Indulgences are clearly described in the Catechism, and are issued from time-to-time by Rome. The distinction between plenary and partial indulgences is still maintained. For instance, Pope Benedict decreed certain plenary and partial indulgences for the recent year of the priest

I personally perform actions with the intention of gaining an indulgence, for my deceased relatives or myself, quite frequently. Perhaps one doesn’t often hear about indulgences in Catholic life, as it is very much “business as usual”.

If Catholics don’t proclaim and practice a particular “problematic” doctrine with the same visibility that non-Catholics denounce it, that doesn’t mean they are attempting to cover it up.

I’m not so much thinking about the use of indulgences, as their rationale - I am not sure if it just isn’t discussed, or who knows, maybe people just don’t pay attention. But it seems to be one area where I find a lot of Catholics seem surprised to discover the actual teaching, including ones who actually use indulgences.

 

[Edmundus1581]

I’m not so much thinking about the use of indulgences, as their rationale - I am not sure if it just isn’t discussed, or who knows, maybe people just don’t pay attention. But it seems to be one area where I find a lot of Catholics seem surprised to discover the actual teaching, including ones who actually use indulgences.

Thanks for the clarification - I can see what you mean.

 

[GKC]

No, not at all. Though goodness knows, some Anglo-papists get up to some crazy stuff. But the Articles of Religion are pretty hard on them:

XIV. OF WORKS OF SUPEREROGATION.

VOLUNTARY Works besides, over and above, God’s Commandments, which they call Works of Supererogation, cannot be taught without arrogancy and impiety: for by them men do declare, that they do not only render unto God as much as they are bound to do, but that they do more for his sake, than of bounden duty is required: whereas Christ saith plainly, When ye have done all that are commanded to you, say, We are unprofitable servants.

Anglicanism I think has rejected a number of ideas that would be considered Western developments of the Catholic Church. In some ways I think it is fair to say that in the break from Rome there was an attempt to move back from some of these developments of doctrine, which were seen to be unjustified. I think even the idea of faith alone could be understood that way to some degree (though whether or not it is successful is a good question.)

And I’m pretty hard on the Articles, as a document. But still, it’s only in the rarified air of the Anglo-Papalists, as you note, that one finds much acceptance of the Treasury of Merit.

GKC

*Anglicanus-Catholicus
*

 

[Hesychios]

I’m not so much thinking about the use of indulgences, as their rationale - I am not sure if it just isn’t discussed, or who knows, maybe people just don’t pay attention. But it seems to be one area where I find a lot of Catholics seem surprised to discover the actual teaching, including ones who actually use indulgences.

I agree.

Why those medieval churchmen had to theorize over a ‘treasury of merits’ is absolutely beyond me. It does not actually require a rationale, if it is a legitimate practice we don’t need to know how or why it works and any attempt to ‘explain’ it can make us all look silly. As it is the power to bind and loose should be sufficient.

This illustrates the danger of introducing concepts into religion from outside or the received Apostolic teaching. As in this case, bankers logic.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think the majority of church-going Catholics on any given Sunday have no clue about indulgences and I think a lot of Catholics AND Protestants were under the impression that indulgences were done away with years ago. Oh contrare. I remember about four years ago going to a Eucharistic Benediction at my Catholic parish. It was sponsored by the secular Franciscans. I remember one of the brothers getting up to the pulpit and saying, “today offers an exciting opportunity! We have the opportunity this day to obtain a full plenary indulgence as it is the feast of St. so and so. If you go to confession after this Mass, pray for the Holy Father, and pray the st. what’s-his-face novena you can have a full plenary indulgence!” He went on and on and everyone looked all perky. Knowing about indulgences and having a Reformation view of them I was recoiling and wanting to plug my ears.

BTW, I haven’t posted much today as I’ve been down at the hospital. My grandmother has suffered a massive stroke. She has been through chemo, radiation, a previous hospitalization, and now she suffers a stroke, I was down at the hospital for six hours with my mom. My mom’s really depressed right now as the doctors aren’t giving her much time. She could go any hour or any day. Tough times around our house today. Keep my mom, Sally, and my grandmother, Mary, in your prayers guys if you get a moment tonight…

gurney

I’m not so much thinking about the use of indulgences, as their rationale - I am not sure if it just isn’t discussed, or who knows, maybe people just don’t pay attention. But it seems to be one area where I find a lot of Catholics seem surprised to discover the actual teaching, including ones who actually use indulgences.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Yeah those pesky 39 Articles were just a phrase the Anglican Church went through for a few burps and hiccups in the 16th Century. Pay 'em no mind. And while you’re at it reinventing the Anglican Church as Catholic, get to confession tonight right away!

And I’m pretty hard on the Articles, as a document. But still, it’s only in the rarified air of the Anglo-Papalists, as you note, that one finds much acceptance of the Treasury of Merit.

GKC

*Anglicanus-Catholicus
*

 

[Bluegoat]

BTW, I haven’t posted much today as I’ve been down at the hospital. My grandmother has suffered a massive stroke. She has been through chemo, radiation, a previous hospitalization, and now she suffers a stroke, I was down at the hospital for six hours with my mom. My mom’s really depressed right now as the doctors aren’t giving her much time. She could go any hour or any day. Tough times around our house today. Keep my mom, Sally, and my grandmother, Mary, in your prayers guys if you get a moment tonight…

gurney

Sorry to hear that Gurney - I will remember them in my prayers.

 

[GKC]

Yeah those pesky 39 Articles were just a phrase the Anglican Church went through for a few burps and hiccups in the 16th Century. Pay 'em no mind. And while you’re at it reinventing the Anglican Church as Catholic, get to confession tonight right away!

All may.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I think the majority of church-going Catholics on any given Sunday have no clue about indulgences and I think a lot of Catholics AND Protestants were under the impression that indulgences were done away with years ago. Oh contrare. I remember about four years ago going to a Eucharistic Benediction at my Catholic parish. It was sponsored by the secular Franciscans. I remember one of the brothers getting up to the pulpit and saying, “today offers an exciting opportunity! We have the opportunity this day to obtain a full plenary indulgence as it is the feast of St. so and so. If you go to confession after this Mass, pray for the Holy Father, and pray the st. what’s-his-face novena you can have a full plenary indulgence!” He went on and on and everyone looked all perky. Knowing about indulgences and having a Reformation view of them I was recoiling and wanting to plug my ears.

BTW, I haven’t posted much today as I’ve been down at the hospital. My grandmother has suffered a massive stroke. She has been through chemo, radiation, a previous hospitalization, and now she suffers a stroke, I was down at the hospital for six hours with my mom. My mom’s really depressed right now as the doctors aren’t giving her much time. She could go any hour or any day. Tough times around our house today. Keep my mom, Sally, and my grandmother, Mary, in your prayers guys if you get a moment tonight…

gurney

I’ve walked the road you’re on.

Prayers.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

All may, some should, GKC must!

All may.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Yeah, not fun. It’s horrible when your grandma doesn’t recognize you. She didn’t know who I was. When asked who I was, she paused, started to answer, paused, and said I was “Luke.” Luke is MY son, five years old. Then she didn’t know my mom or my dad or my grandpa either. She is in and out and just totally robbed of her dignity. Growing old is hard to watch and humbling. I have a lot of sorrow for my mom. My mom is drained after all this. The way the nurse who was in charge of her didn’t give a royal dang about my grandma was horrible. I actually met with the lead nurse and turned in that nurse. I usually NEVER turn anyone in for anything but the attitude that chick had, the stuff she said, and the lines she crossed, I was ticked! What a day…

My wife is in the RN program. She is just dying to be a nurse. I would HATE working in a hospital. Those places depress the crud out of yours truly…

I’ve walked the road you’re on.

Prayers.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

thanks, Meghan. That means a lot. My mom is really hurting tonight…totally stressed out between my grandma AND my grandpa, who is always a difficult guy to deal with…

Sorry to hear that Gurney - I will remember them in my prayers.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

This article by N.T. Wright, the Anglican bishop and scholar, points out the viewpoint that being frustrated with Anglicanism and other areas lacking within Protestantism doesn’t necessarily mean jumping to Rome is the answer. I found it an interesting article, the way Wright always words things…
From Christianity Today…NT Wright…
Here’s a snipet

***I am sorry to think that there are people out there whose Protestantism has been so barren that they never found out about sacraments, transformation, community or eschatology. Clearly this person needed a change. But to jump to Rome for that reason is very odd.

It reminds me of the fine old German NT scholar Heinrich Schlier, who found that the only way to be a Protestant was to be a Bultmannian, so, because he couldn’t take Bultmann, became a Roman Catholic; that was the only other option in his culture. Good luck to him; happily, most of us have plenty of other options.

To say “Wow, I want that stuff, I’d better go to Rome” is like someone suddenly discovering (as I’m told Americans occasionally do — sorry, cheap shot) that there are other countries in the world and so getting the first big boat he finds in New York to take him there . . . when there were plenty of planes lined up and waiting at JFK. Rome is a big, splendid, dusty old ocean liner, with lots of grand cabins, and, at present, quite a fine captain and some excellent officers — but also quite a few rooms in need of repair. Yes, it may take you places, but it’s slow and you might get seasick from time to time. And the navigators have been told that they must never acknowledge when they’ve been going in the wrong direction . . .

1. I spent three very happy weeks as the Anglican observer at the Vatican’s Synod of Bishops last October. They were talking about the Bible: about how for so long they have more or less banned the laity from reading or studying it, and how now they want to change all that, to insist that every Catholic man, woman, child, cat and dog should have the Bible in their own mother tongue and be taught to read it, study it, pray with it, individually and together. Hallelujah! Who knows what might happen!

Question: why did nobody say this in 1525? If they had, we’d have been saved a lot of bother.

Let’s engage cheerfully in as much discussion with our Roman friends as we can. They are among my best ecumenical conversation partners, and some of them are among my dear friends. But let’s not imagine that a renewed biblical theology will mean we find ourselves saying “You guys were right after all” just at the point where, not explicitly but actually, they are saying that to us . . .***

 

[Hesychios]

… Tough times around our house today. Keep my mom, Sally, and my grandmother, Mary, in your prayers guys if you get a moment tonight…

gurney

Prayers for all my friend.

It’s good that you thought to give us their names.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Thank you, brother Michael, as always for your prayers. I know you’re a real warrior with prayers and mean what you say. Your prayers are always a blessing to me.

Prayers for all my friend.

It’s good that you thought to give us their names.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[Bluegoat]

Question: why did nobody say this in 1525? If they had, we’d have been saved a lot of bother.

Gotta love that English understatement! What a description of the Reformation!