Don’t forget that the men ordained under Henry VIII as Catholics or Anglicans, and again under Mary I as Catholics, would have had valid holy orders, and then would have continued to administer the other sacraments validly even after whatever date we set for the breaking of apostolic succession. Some of these presumably would have survived to at least the late 16th century.various popes have made this declaration, repeating the first judgement, throughout the sad history of separation of the Anglicans from Rome. There was never a time when Anglican sacraments including ordination were considered valid once the first pope, certainly before the end of QE’s reign, and probably in the time of Edward VI declared apostolic succession had been interrupted. Since the question came up from time to time, especially in the rise of the high Church Oxford movement in the 19th c. it had to be reitterated. by subsequent popes.
OP’s question deals specifically with the Catholic POV of the question, so opinions of any other body, including Anglicans themselves, are irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion.
Provided that the quote is authentic, I would assume it is just fuzzy ecumenical language, not a proclamation of a valid episcopate in the Church of England unless this intention is made clear by the context of the quote, which I assume it is not.How do RCs today deal with Paul VI calling the Church of England “our beautiful Sister Church”?
I’ve given the source a couple of times, in another thread. It was at the canonization of the British and Welsh Martyrs, in 1970. It helps also to know something of the relationship that had grown between Paul VI and Michael Ramsey, the then Archbishop of Canterbury.Provided that the quote is authentic, I would assume it is just fuzzy ecumenical language, not a proclamation of a valid episcopate in the Church of England unless this intention is made clear by the context of the quote, which I assume it is not.
Yes, we are close. We follow similar lexicons and liturgies and our communion servies are vurtually identical. People here go on about “Protestants” as if they (we) were all alike, but in my town you’d find the 10:00 Sunday services at the RC and CofE churches (or at least the one I attend) to be far more similar than the Methodist service.It needs to be clarified here…
I believe I read that the Catholic Church does recognize valid communion in some Anglican branches, but in the majority, communion is not recognize because of the break in apostolic succession and not having the laying on of hands…
Our bishop from the Commission of Ecumenism in Vatican II stated the Anglicans are most close to us after the Orthodox. It is women’s ordination and approved homosexual activity that is now blocking greater unity between the two churches.
Perhapse the discomfort is not so much with the Pope’s comments but the fact that Anglicanism is institutionalized in England as the official government religion. My Protestant friends in French Canadian provinces feel somewhat distrustful of Catholicsim for the same reason.
My experience here in the US is that Catholics view the Anglican and Episcopalian Churches as disobedient sisters, and not a little bit schizophrenic or bipolar. Being, as we see it, part of the Church which possesses the fullness of truth, we just kinda shake our heads and wonder what the heck is going on in those places.
I don’t mean this as an insult and really want to maintain a spirit of charity and good will. I’m sure there are differences between the US and England, especially in light of the history between the CofE and Rome, of which many here in the US have little perspective.
I was tickled by your “disobedient sisters” tag. I think that in Ireland, where I lived for some years, we were regarded as rather errant younger siblings. But we had a good relationship (I’m talking about the south of Ireland). After centuries of sectarian strife, a big effort needed to be made to improve things, and it was being made successfully.
I don’t think I’m bi-polar or schizophrenic (do I give that impression?) but I’ve been called worse. In the now defunct BBC Christian topic forum we were plagued by Protestant fundamentalists (fundies) and militant anti-theists, and you should have heard what they said about us (and about RCs for that matter).
In England, Anglicans are basically RC-friendly, and relations are generally good, though the attitude of the Vatican is not always helpful and we are very conscious of this.
-Tim-
I see GKC beat me to it .Sorry, evidence for what?
If you mean the Apostolic succession as regards the Anglican Communion, well, yes I can produce that (though it’s my bedtime now). but I thought that your church regarded the succession as broken because the form of service was not in order.
[And what is your evidence for disputing the Apostolic Succession with regard to Anglican orders? As opposed to an assertion.]
The idea of women’s ordination hasn’t necessarily helped relationship among Anglicans either.Yes, we are close. We follow similar lexicons and liturgies and our communion servies are vurtually identical. People here go on about “Protestants” as if they (we) were all alike, but in my town you’d find the 10:00 Sunday services at the RC and CofE churches (or at least the one I attend) to be far more similar than the Methodist service.
Women’s ordination has not helped relationships with the RC and Orthodox Churches, but in my opinion it has helped the Anglican communion. women priests have brought a lot to our churches. To quote on elderly male Anglican I know, “we’d be lost without them”.
I get the impression that The Episcopal Church in America is at least close to “approving” homosexual practices and the CofE is not happy about this. Having said that, I’m sure blind eyes are turned. I know a same-sex couple who are devout church-goers. I don’t use the word Lesbian because although they live together, I don’t know the details of their relationship. It’s not my business.
“Misrepresenting the Truth is always a problem”. Explanation mark.I see GKC beat me to it .
And to your assertion in a previous post that the Vatican recognizing valid Holy Orders in the CofE would have been a problem is certainly correct . Misrepresenting the Truth is always a problem !
No, it hasn’t and having lived for some years in the Diocese of Chichester I’m well aware of it. The issue is still with us.The idea of women’s ordination hasn’t necessarily helped relationship among Anglicans either.
GKC
*Anglicanus-Catholicus, posterus traditus Anglicanus *
Cheshangle;8073654[ said:“Misrepresenting the Truth is always a problem”. Explanation mark.
Ah yes, but your purportedly amusing reply implies that the RC Church always gets it right.
In my opinion the orders of the Anglican Communion are valid and the Apostolic succession applies. In your opinion and that of your Pope, I’m wrong. But was the RC church right to persecuate Galieo and to order the burning of thousands of “heretics” (which would have included me)?
I gather that until Vatican II I would have been condemned to eternal damnation. But there seems to have been a change of mind. As there has, thank God, on ne temere.]
And, because of the issue (inter alia), a number of Anglicans are not.No, it hasn’t and having lived for some years in the Diocese of Chichester I’m well aware of it. The issue is still with us.
I’d suggest, for the Spanish Inquisition, anyway, Kamen’s THE SPANISH INQUISITION. IIRC, he suggests around 2000+ executions there, mainly conversos. For Galileo, De Santillana’s THE CRIME OF GALILEO. Nobody comes out if it looking good.That was not an attempt at humor , rather it was an exclamatory statement , hence the exclamation point .
Well, yes , in matters of faith and morals the Catholic Church always gets it right . Christ gave the keys to Peter and promised the Holy Spirit would always be with the Church .Can you prove any pope has done otherwise ( i.e., taught heresy ) ?
Three conditions are necessary for a pope to exercise the charism of infallibility : (1) he must speak in his official capacity as the successor of Peter , (2) he must speak on a matter of faith or morals , (3) he must solemnly define the doctrine as one that MUST be held by all the faithfull. None of these requirements are met in the Galileo affair , let alone all of them !
Ah , the Galileo Affair , I love it when people invoke this " Black Myth " . You can only claim the Church "persecuted " Galileo if you have an extraordinarily expansive definition of " persecute " . Afterall , during this supposed persecution ( house arrest, nice digs by the way ) , Galileo found the means and opportunity to write his most imprtant work and get it published .
Let’s get this straight , the heliocentric theory is not named after Galileo , but rather Nicolaus Copernicus . That’s why it’s called the Copernican Theory . Copernicus died 21 years before Galileo was even born , so they were not contempoaries .
Copernicus put forth his heliocentric theory in his , " On theRevolution of the Celestial Orbs " which he dedicated to Pope Paul lll .
Extra Credit : 1. When/how was Copernicus persecuted ?
2. What was Copernicus’ "day job " ?
Not well known , Galileo NEVER ACTUALLY PROVED the heliocentric theory . he couldn’t answer the major argument against it which was made by Aristotle 2000 years earlier .Galileo’s problem with the Church could have been avoided if he had proposed heliocentrism as a theory to more simply account for the planets motions . His problem arose when he stopped proposing it as a theory and began proclaiming it as a truth ( that he could not prove ) .
Galileo was a prima donna and his own worst enemy . He managed to alienate and offend his friend , benefactor and new Pope ( Urban Vlll , I believe ) , the one man he could least afford to do this with . This pope encouraged him to revisit heliocentrism in a book , but as a theory . The rest is history , but apperently not your history .
Did you know Galileo was wrong about some of the "facts " he claimed ?
Galileo believed our sun is the fixed center of the universe , it’s not ( only our solar system ).
Galileo believed our sun doesn’t move , it does ( it orbits the center of our galaxy ) .
" Thousands of heretics" . this sounds like the exagerations made about the Inquisition . Let me humor your "victimhood " , ya , some heretics got burned , not nearly as many as is claimed , but it was avoidable ( on the part of the “burnees” , that is ) .
I don’t like to play the victim card , so I won’t mention all the Catholics the Protestants murdered . But while you’re at it , why don’t you have all the Catholic property in Great Britain that was confiscated ( stolen really , but I’m in an ecumenical mood ) returnrd to the Catholic Church . That will be a good start .
I will work on Islam returning Constantinople to Christendom . I don’t want you to think you have to do most of the heavy lifting . I’m that kinda guy !
I suggest you go to this site’s home page and enter into it’s search engine, the Galileo Controversy .
I also suggest you read , " The New Anti-Catholicism , the Last Acceptable Prejudice " by Dr. Philip Jenkins , the Distinguished Professor of Historyand Religous Studies at the Pennsylvania State University ( and no , he is not himself a Catholic ) . He also wrote ,
"The Next Christendom , The Coming of Global Christianity "
Always remember , and never forget , that conventional wisdom may always be conventional , bit it is often unwise .
A good traditional Anglican Mass, say from the 1928 Book of Common prayer, supplemented with the Missal, is a beautiful thing. I hope that was the sort of thing you saw.Women ordinations will never come in the Roman Catholic Church. Both homosexual and heterosexual acts outside of marriage will never be approved either.
GKC, will do a search on the martyrs. I was turning on tv and came to priests celebrating Mass…I looked and immediately picked up on something subtly different, kept watching because the Mass looked so Roman Catholic, sacred, holy…it was Anglican…it was a brief viewing and I can’t say what it was or how it was that I could pick up on the difference.
But it was as well reassuring to the unity of faith and the sensitivity towards the sacred that I witnessed in the Anglican liturgy. I pray for more healing and understanding here between us.
Well, i’m in favour of women priests and I suspect that you’re not. In any event, it was a nettle that had to be grasped, and in my opinion we grasped it correctly.And, because of the issue (inter alia), a number of Anglicans are not.
GKC
I attended Sung High Mass (sic) in Philadelphia at St Mark’s, Locust Street last month. The priest faced the altar, there was incence and it was…Episcopal!Women ordinations will never come in the Roman Catholic Church. Both homosexual and heterosexual acts outside of marriage will never be approved either.
GKC, will do a search on the martyrs. I was turning on tv and came to priests celebrating Mass…I looked and immediately picked up on something subtly different, kept watching because the Mass looked so Roman Catholic, sacred, holy…it was Anglican…it was a brief viewing and I can’t say what it was or how it was that I could pick up on the difference.
But it was as well reassuring to the unity of faith and the sensitivity towards the sacred that I witnessed in the Anglican liturgy. I pray for more healing and understanding here between us.
St. Mark’s certainly does a wonderful liturgy. One of my best friends is a member there and I’ve visited frequently (not so often now that I live in Indiana, but I used to live in New Jersey).I attended Sung High Mass (sic) in Philadelphia at St Mark’s, Locust Street last month. The priest faced the altar, there was incence and it was…Episcopal!
The Roman Catholic Church does not always get it right.Thinking back to the Reformation, there were martyrs on both sides, and, to quote the late Cardinal Hume, “faults on both sides”. But then you seem to imply that there were faults only on the Protestant side, and therefore by implication that the Cardinal, respected as a wise and cerebral man, was wrong. And was your church right to strangle and burn William Tyndale for translating the Bible?That was not an attempt at humor , rather it was an exclamatory statement , hence the exclamation point .
Well, yes , in matters of faith and morals the Catholic Church always gets it right . Christ gave the keys to Peter and promised the Holy Spirit would always be with the Church .Can you prove any pope has done otherwise ( i.e., taught heresy ) ?
Three conditions are necessary for a pope to exercise the charism of infallibility : (1) he must speak in his official capacity as the successor of Peter , (2) he must speak on a matter of faith or morals , (3) he must solemnly define the doctrine as one that MUST be held by all the faithfull. None of these requirements are met in the Galileo affair , let alone all of them !
Ah , the Galileo Affair , I love it when people invoke this " Black Myth " . You can only claim the Church "persecuted " Galileo if you have an extraordinarily expansive definition of " persecute " . Afterall , during this supposed persecution ( house arrest, nice digs by the way ) , Galileo found the means and opportunity to write his most imprtant work and get it published .
Let’s get this straight , the heliocentric theory is not named after Galileo , but rather Nicolaus Copernicus . That’s why it’s called the Copernican Theory . Copernicus died 21 years before Galileo was even born , so they were not contempoaries .
Copernicus put forth his heliocentric theory in his , " On theRevolution of the Celestial Orbs " which he dedicated to Pope Paul lll .
Extra Credit : 1. When/how was Copernicus persecuted ?
2. What was Copernicus’ "day job " ?
Not well known , Galileo NEVER ACTUALLY PROVED the heliocentric theory . he couldn’t answer the major argument against it which was made by Aristotle 2000 years earlier .Galileo’s problem with the Church could have been avoided if he had proposed heliocentrism as a theory to more simply account for the planets motions . His problem arose when he stopped proposing it as a theory and began proclaiming it as a truth ( that he could not prove ) .
Galileo was a prima donna and his own worst enemy . He managed to alienate and offend his friend , benefactor and new Pope ( Urban Vlll , I believe ) , the one man he could least afford to do this with . This pope encouraged him to revisit heliocentrism in a book , but as a theory . The rest is history , but apperently not your history .
Did you know Galileo was wrong about some of the "facts " he claimed ?
Galileo believed our sun is the fixed center of the universe , it’s not ( only our solar system ).
Galileo believed our sun doesn’t move , it does ( it orbits the center of our galaxy ) .
" Thousands of heretics" . this sounds like the exagerations made about the Inquisition . Let me humor your "victimhood " , ya , some heretics got burned , not nearly as many as is claimed , but it was avoidable ( on the part of the “burnees” , that is ) .
I don’t like to play the victim card , so I won’t mention all the Catholics the Protestants murdered . But while you’re at it , why don’t you have all the Catholic property in Great Britain that was confiscated ( stolen really , but I’m in an ecumenical mood ) returnrd to the Catholic Church . That will be a good start .
I will work on Islam returning Constantinople to Christendom . I don’t want you to think you have to do most of the heavy lifting . I’m that kinda guy !
I suggest you go to this site’s home page and enter into it’s search engine, the Galileo Controversy .
I also suggest you read , " The New Anti-Catholicism , the Last Acceptable Prejudice " by Dr. Philip Jenkins , the Distinguished Professor of Historyand Religous Studies at the Pennsylvania State University ( and no , he is not himself a Catholic ) . He also wrote ,
"The Next Christendom , The Coming of Global Christianity "
Always remember , and never forget , that conventional wisdom may always be conventional , bit it is often unwise .