Anglicanism vs. Catholicism

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Catholics will demand the Orthodox accept the papacy as infallible, universal, and the final say in all things theological and moral. They might lay off the filioque stuff. The Orthodox will demand the papacy return to being the coryphaeus, the big brother at the table, and accept the old conciliar Church polity that served Christendom so well prior to 1054. The Orthodox will not like the indulgences, purgatory, treasury of merit, etc. nor will they like the filioque. They have grown so far apart. The Orthodox will require the pope to eat some crow and give up some power which he will not do. He will demand they accept his power and centrality.

I don’t think it’ll happen.

And yes, OCA is only one piece of the Orthodoxy puzzle in America but, correct me if I’m wrong, it’s the largest group.

The second two, fine. It is the brick wall of that first demand. And, which Orthodox to unify with? Aren’t they each separate, with no central authority? There is no Orthodox ‘Rome’, to my knowledge.

I once assumed an Orthodox on CAF to be a protestant, based on his attitude toward Rome. “Some” Orthodox have picked this attitude up somewhere (I’m bracing myself). Catholics are mostly mystified about the Orthodox and some Orthodox are miffed about the Catholics.

Oh, there’s unity in the future alright, but it will occur only when the blood flows up to the horse’s bridle. Armageddon has this tendency to make strange bedfellows.

As well, there is an attitude that Catholics give up nothing, and demand that all others sacrifice for unity. Do they know what Catholics have sacrificed to become or remain Catholics? The list would require several posts.

 

[Cranmer2010]

The Catholics will demand the Orthodox accept the papacy as infallible, universal, and the final say in all things theological and moral. They might lay off the filioque stuff. The Orthodox will demand the papacy return to being the coryphaeus, the big brother at the table, and accept the old conciliar Church polity that served Christendom so well prior to 1054. The Orthodox will not like the indulgences, purgatory, treasury of merit, etc. nor will they like the filioque. They have grown so far apart. The Orthodox will require the pope to eat some crow and give up some power which he will not do. He will demand they accept his power and centrality.

I don’t think it’ll happen.

And yes, OCA is only one piece of the Orthodoxy puzzle in America but, correct me if I’m wrong, it’s the largest group.

Forgive me for being negative, but I do not see unity on the horizon for Orthodox Christians or Anglicans with Rome. IMHO, Rome wants everything to be exactly the way it is now and wishes for others to join. It is true that some Anglicans have joined Rome, but let’s lets face it. Rome threw them a bone to join the pound. Rome will have to be willing to exercise compromise to get closer to unity with others. Unfortunately Rome will never do it.

 

[Nine_Two]

Lest we forget, it was the Anglicans who hung “Roman” on the Catholic Church as a perjorative term.

The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church has many rites: “Roman” is one of them.

Peace, Jim Dandy

I keep hearing Catholics saying this, but I can’t find a source, everything I’ve read from that era has the term “Papist” being used abundantly, but never “Roman Catholic” as a derisive term.

 

[Nine_Two]

Funny you should ask that. At the ACNA innaugural event in 2008 or so Metropolitan Jonah of the Orthodox Church of America officially offered to the ACNA Anglicans an invitation to enter into full communion with the OCA. He actually is friends with our Anglican bishop here, Bishop John-David Schofield. Metropolitan Jonah stated that several things would need to happen for a full communion between the bodies:

The filioque must be dropped completely from the Creed and theology of the Church
No women priests or deacons let alone bishops, etc. (I concur!)
A total purging of any vestiges of Calvinism that exists in some of the more evangelical wings of the Anglican church

The jury’s still out. I personally believe it’ll never happen. But then again I think a reunion of East and West will never occur either. I’m a realist. Rome will glean people out of the Anglican Communion here and there as the AC breaks up into more chaos, no doubt. They will trickle in a few from here and there but the grand vision of a reunion and a huge growth of the Church oriented toward the pope is talk you’ll hear in here at CAF coming from Catholics but ask Orthodox Christians in here and elsewhere and there’s no desire.

The ecumenical efforts between Catholics and Lutherans and other bodies have yielded little fruit except some common language in some official documents.

I for one wish there were more unity but I’m too cynical about human nature, the theological divide between East and West and Protestants, etc.

I’m curious, was his Beatitude’s offer to become part of the OCA (with the same sort of deal the Romanians, Bulgarians, and Greeks within the Church have), or to be recognized as being part of the Orthodox Communion?

 

[Nine_Two]

Well I’m quite honest that I’m a sinner. We are not called to be naive either. Anyone who thinks all the churches will reunite, I have some swamp land for sale…

I’ll take it! I’ll build a castle, they’ll call me daft, and it might fall over BUT! I’ll build another castle!..

 

[Nine_Two]

But you have to remember what Orthodox and Anglicans have in common, now, Jim! Both have coffee hour! And one side could learn to grow beards. The other side could learn to do C.S. Lewis book studies.

I’m posting way too much in a row, but you should meet my boss. Orthodox and a die-hard fan of Lewis and Chesterton.

Former Anglican of course.

 

[Nine_Two]

The second two, fine. It is the brick wall of that first demand. And, which Orthodox to unify with? Aren’t they each separate, with no central authority? There is no Orthodox ‘Rome’, to my knowledge.

Yes, we don’t tend to care about that stuff. Orthodox is Orthodox.

I once assumed an Orthodox on CAF to be a protestant, based on his attitude toward Rome. “Some” Orthodox have picked this attitude up somewhere (I’m bracing myself). Catholics are mostly mystified about the Orthodox and some Orthodox are miffed about the Catholics.

Because we disagree that the Pope is anything more than just another Patriarch, which is just a glorified Bishop? That has always been the Orthodox teaching.
I do dumb it down a bit, a Patriarch isn’t just another bishop, however I’ve heard the accusation that we’re just protestants because we don’t believe the Pope to be Vicar of Christ. This is an uneducated accusation and shows little attempt to learn, or respect our own history.

Oh, there’s unity in the future alright, but it will occur only when the blood flows up to the horse’s bridle. Armageddon has this tendency to make strange bedfellows.

Not really, all the previous battles at Har Megiddo were pretty standard affairs.
Of course I joke. You refer to the biblical battle which is said to take place in the future. I do believe you’ve admitted we are fully Christian, followers of Christ (that or fellow followers of Satan… somehow I doubt that was the implication you meant). If this is true, why is Rome so important?

As well, there is an attitude that Catholics give up nothing, and demand that all others sacrifice for unity. Do they know what Catholics have sacrificed to become or remain Catholics? The list would require several posts.

Meat on Fridays?

 

[Nine_Two]

And yes, OCA is only one piece of the Orthodoxy puzzle in America but, correct me if I’m wrong, it’s the largest group.

And I post yet again…

The Greeks are the largest, the OCA, at about half the size, is the second largest. Both churches have very large segments that are not native Orthodox though, the OCA moreso.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Like I said, correct me if I’m wrong! I’m glad you did

And I post yet again…

The Greeks are the largest, the OCA, at about half the size, is the second largest. Both churches have very large segments that are not native Orthodox though, the OCA moreso.

 

[po18guy]

Yes, we don’t tend to care about that stuff. Orthodox is Orthodox.

Except for that little filioque thing…

Because we disagree that the Pope is anything more than just another Patriarch, which is just a glorified Bishop? That has always been the Orthodox teaching.

But, what keeps the Orthodox doctrinally unified? I mean, there have certainly been disagreements.

I do dumb it down a bit, a Patriarch isn’t just another bishop, however I’ve heard the accusation that we’re just protestants because we don’t believe the Pope to be Vicar of Christ. This is an uneducated accusation and shows little attempt to learn, or respect our own history.

Disagree or not, is it even possible?

Of course I joke. You refer to the biblical battle which is said to take place in the future. I do believe you’ve admitted we are fully Christian, followers of Christ

Of course!

If this is true, why is Rome so important?

The See of Peter. The center of the visible Church. Why not Rome? What is wrong with an in-communion Orthodox Patriarch being Pope one day? About time!

 

[Jim_Dandy]

:
Originally Posted by Jim Dandy
Lest we forget, it was the Anglicans who hung “Roman” on the Catholic Church as a perjorative term.

I keep hearing Catholics saying this, but I can’t find a source, everything I’ve read from that era has the term “Papist” being used abundantly, but never “Roman Catholic” as a derisive term.

This discussion of “Catholic” vs. “Roman Catholic” was written by two highly regarded Catholic apologists; one is Jimmy Akin, a staff apologist for Catholic Answers. However, their historical reference(s) are not given. I’ll write to one or both of them and ask for their source(s). I used to have references, but lost them in a computer crash.

socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/roman-catholic-vs-catholic-proper.html

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I’ve seen Orthodox studies of Lewis, who was favorably impressed by his (slight) contact with Orthodoxy.

GKC

Interesting. Did these Orthodox studies comment on Lewis’s Catholic beliefs, for example, Purgatory?

Jim Dandy

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

And don’t forget the fact that Lewis very openly rejected the papacy and its claims to infallibility and supremacy, etc. as well. So don’t be too quick to pope up C.S. Lewis. He was definitely an Anglican.

Interesting. Did these Orthodox studies comment on Lewis’s Catholic beliefs, for example, Purgatory?

Jim Dandy

 

[Nine_Two]

Interesting. Did these Orthodox studies comment on Lewis’s Catholic beliefs, for example, Purgatory?

Jim Dandy

Given that Lewis is not considered infallible, even if people do study his teachings, and second that belief in purgatory is fine among Orthodox, I don’t see it presenting a problem.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Forgive me for being negative, but I do not see unity on the horizon for Orthodox Christians or Anglicans with Rome. IMHO, Rome wants everything to be exactly the way it is now and wishes for others to join. It is true that some Anglicans have joined Rome, but let’s lets face it. Rome threw them a bone to join the pound. Rome will have to be willing to exercise compromise to get closer to unity with others. Unfortunately Rome will never do it.

Which divinely revealed doctrine would you like The Church to compromise? The Catholic Church has no doctrines of her own – she was given the Deposit of Faith in trust by the Apostles. Her job is to interpret, defend, and preserve the “faith once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3), as she has done for 2,000 years.

Rather than “throwing them a bone to join the pound,” Rome responded pastorally to requests from distressed Anglicans who asked permission to join the Catholic Church but wished to maintain the Anglican style of worship to which they were accustomed. The “Pastoral Provision” for clergy and the “Anglican Use” liturgy, modified to bring it into compliance with Catholic doctrine, are the result of those requests. The Catholic Church has many rites; the Anglican Use rite is #20.

The first parish to convert en masse that cherishes the Anglican Use liturgy is Our Lady of the Atonement in San Antonio, Texas.

atonementonline.com/

 

[Nine_Two]

Except for that little filioque thing…

What does the Filioque have to do with the lack of centralization in the Orthodox Church? No Orthodox Church uses the filioque.

But, what keeps the Orthodox doctrinally unified? I mean, there have certainly been disagreements.

Common doctrine. Do Catholics not have this? I thought you did.

Disagree or not, is it even possible?

I don’t follow.

The See of Peter. The center of the visible Church. Why not Rome? What is wrong with an in-communion Orthodox Patriarch being Pope one day? About time!

If we already offer salvation why do we need that? Our Church has a visible center in Christ.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Given that Lewis is not considered infallible, even if people do study his teachings, and second that belief in purgatory is fine among Orthodox, I don’t see it presenting a problem.

Uh, um, I don’t think “belief in purgatory is fine among Orthodox.” Am I wrong about that? Evidence, please?

I find the Orthodox rejection of purgatory ludicrous in view of their practice of praying for the dead. Prayers are useless for those in hell and unnecessary for those in heaven. I think the Orthodox reject the term “purgatory” for the process of final purification of a soul after death in preparation for heaven merely because it’s Catholic.

Peace, Jim Dandy

 

[Nine_Two]

Uh, um, I don’t think “belief in purgatory is fine among Orthodox.” Am I wrong about that? Evidence, please?

I find the Orthodox rejection of purgatory ludicrous in view of their practice of praying for the dead. Prayers are useless for those in hell and unnecessary for those in heaven. I think the Orthodox reject the term “purgatory” for the process of final purification of a soul after death in preparation for heaven merely because it’s Catholic.

Peace, Jim Dandy

What exactly do you want as evidence? We have no doctrine on that. Belief in purgatory is fine, teaching that one must believe in purgatory, as the Catholic Church does, is not fine.

 

[StevieD]

I keep hearing Catholics saying this, but I can’t find a source, everything I’ve read from that era has the term “Papist” being used abundantly, but never “Roman Catholic” as a derisive term.

The term ‘Roman Catholic’ was an invention of the Anglicans because, they considered themselves the Catholic Church in England and so used the term to differentiate the foreign Catholics (as they saw it) to themselves. The term is illogical (since Catholic means universal) and has never been accepted by Catholics.
I recall a dispute, years ago in a small English town where both the Anglican and Catholic churches had signs saying ‘Catholic Church’. The Anglican vicar insisted that his was the (English) Catholic church and the other was a Roman Catholic church so the priest should change his since his was a foreign Catholic Church operating in England.

 

[StevieD]

Forgive me for being negative, but I do not see unity on the horizon for Orthodox Christians or Anglicans with Rome. IMHO, Rome wants everything to be exactly the way it is now and wishes for others to join. It is true that some Anglicans have joined Rome, but let’s lets face it. Rome threw them a bone to join the pound. Rome will have to be willing to exercise compromise to get closer to unity with others. Unfortunately Rome will never do it.

The Vatican did not ‘throw a bone’ to disaffected Anglicans. Disaffected Anglicans petitioned the Vatican over several years for a way of joining the Church as a group with their own liturgy and leadership. The Pope’s offer was made against internal opposition and for, I am convinced, entirely selfless reasons.
Anglicans regard compromise as a virtue because this has been their way - and look where it has got them. The Anglicans do not regard themselves (wisely) as the one true church and cannot (and never did) understand the two Christian bodies who are convinced that they are.
The present Pope has asked Orthodoxy to state how they might see the Papacy operating in a unified Church but I am unaware of any response, they have no body with the authority to make such a response because the Orthodox are not themselves united, nor anywhere near it. Thus any moves to unity between Orthodoxy and Catholicism will need to await Orthodox internal unity, of which there are few signs.