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mercygate
Guest
Sorry. I should have said “Episcopalians” – particularly in the U.S.
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GKC
Guest
Point taken.
GKC
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mean_owen
Guest
Some of us could say that too. Not that many “big C” Catholics buy that argument, tho they didn’t really buy it 30 years ago, either.
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Fr_Ambrose
Guest
Isn’t that the question which many pre-Vatican II Catholics ask: “Why were we deprived of our traditions, the beautiful language of our liturgy, our majestic organ music, our Verdi and Mozart Masses, our Gregorian chant, our gothic vestments, our exquisite churches? Cui bono?”
Will Rome allow in-coming Anglicans to retain things which it has removed from its own faithful or will it not slowly start to insist on the aggiornomento of the Anglican liturgy and archicture - for the very same reasons it insisted on the same changes 40 years ago? I predict that the Anglicans will witness over time the erosion of what is precious and beautiful in their worship and the creation of a Novus Ordo Anglicanus to match the prevailing Novus Ordo.
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mercygate
Guest
Fr Ambrose:
I do expect that the Pastoral Provision for Anglican Use will be either temporary or will remain only a very small option in the Church.
As an Anglican who “came over” I never made a public issue of leaving our beautiful Anglican worship. I made my restive peace with the Novus Ordo and came for the fullness of faith – and because, for me, Apostolic Succession without Peter seemed to be a shadow position.
I do expect that the Pastoral Provision for Anglican Use will be either temporary or will remain only a very small option in the Church.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Tyler:
I know one who can defend them all all from Sacred Scripture. I’ve been trying to talk him into joining us on the “Apologetics” Forums, and I see no reason to be on the other side of the debate from him.
Primate Hepworth has pretty much instructed members of the TAC that he has accepted Papal Primacy, and, as I reported before, his reply to “The Gift of Authority” is forthcoming in the next couple of weeks. And, I’ve defended Papal Primacy and Infallability in the Apologetics Forums.
I personally know one person in my parish who can’t accept that Purgatory is a gift from God to prepare us for the Beatific Vision (Raise your hands if you’re ready “To see the Face of God” right now!). She’s definitely in the minority, and it’s a small minority in the TAC.
Remember, these people have pretty much been told to “Get Lost!” by the Archbishop of Canterbury, the ECUSA, the C of E and those Churches that are in Union with them. That type of motivation has caused, and will cause, many to reconsider their Protestantism and their objections about Catholic Doctrine and Authority.
Remember, the people in the TAC are, for the most part, among the most Catholic of the Anglicans to start with.
Your continued prayers are appreciated.
In Him, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
I thought most Catholics had given that up, except for LENT.
It’s part of our anti-Altzheimer’s program - Remembering which Friday is a “Day of Abstinence” and which isn’t, and which days are “Ember Days”. Although Fr. does give us a “Cheat Sheet” each Friday.
I knew I was in trouble when Archbishop Hepworth mentioned that , “A Big Hunk of Salmon where the meat should be,” did NOT fit his definition of a “Lentin Abstinence” while he looked straight at me!
And, this Fri. was in the Octave of Christmas…
Oh, and I forgot, HAPPY NEW YEAR!
In Him, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Then, this is my chance to talk you into joining us on our “trans-Tiberian Swim” - Besides, who cares if we get a little wet! LOL
I have a very hard time seeing you in a body that has now Consecrated a Bishop who left his young wife and two young children to move in with his gay lover, that has consecrated women “Priests” and “Bishops” (which I can’t see you “being in Communion with”), which has put out a prayer book that assiduously avoids the mention of the words “Sin” and “Sinner” as much as possible, where 30% of the CLERGY actually believe in the RESURRECTION and VIRGIN BIRTH OF OUR LORD JESUS, that calls “orthodox” Anglicans “Schismatics” for placing their faith and Doctrine above unity with heretics, and that, in Union with the Archbishop of Canterbury, has produced a report, “Windsor Report”, which says that all the heresy doesn’t matter.
anglicancommunion.org/windsor2004/index.cfm (That’s the Forward - the pdf is 93 pages)
acahome.org/tac/news/pr041018.htm (Archbishop Hepworth’s Reply)
In short, if you’re still in ECUSA, even if you’re in a “Safe Diocese”, you’re in a DEAD BODY.
Now, I knew the founder of the Fellowship of Concerned Churchmen, and heard the story about when the Anglican Church of North America tried to make this layman a Bishop. He told me he hadn’t run that fast in 30 years, and he was 78! That’s one reason my dad’s church accepted the offer from the Antiochan O.C.
ACNA is the body that produced the veritable alphabet soup you see on the TAC links to other “orthodox” Anglican bodies:
acahome.org/submenu/links.htm
Suppose you’re in the A.P.C.K., what happens when there’s a dispute in the Church? What’s going to happen when Archbishop Morse dies? And, where will you go for Communion if you’re travelling abroad?
The Catholic Church has provided for all of these things. Will you join us??
In Him, Michael
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twf
Guest
Traditional Ang: Will the Holy Father permit your church to appoint its own bishops, or will all Anglican Catholic bishops be appointed directly by the Holy See? Both models exist in the Catholic Church. The vast majority of bishops in the present age are appointed by the Holy See, but within their traditional geographical boundaries, the patriarchs and holy synods of the suri iuris patriarchail churches can appoint their own bishops.
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GKC
Guest
Traditional Ang,
Your invitation is a kind one, but I am not in that mode. Nor am I in ECUSA, or in communion with +Cantaur. To follow where you propose would require me to affirm some particular RCC distinctives, that I do not. I note, for instance, that you refer to Papal primacy, which I have no trouble affirming, though a little trouble defining. but what you will be required to affirm is Papal supremacy, that the Holy Father possesses universal ordinary authority, which is not the same thing. If that is your belief, you are on your way. Personally, anyway. I’m a little curious about how the TAC affair is going to play out.
Morse’s successors are already in place. I wish them luck, as I do you, too.
GKC
traditional Anglican
Your invitation is a kind one, but I am not in that mode. Nor am I in ECUSA, or in communion with +Cantaur. To follow where you propose would require me to affirm some particular RCC distinctives, that I do not. I note, for instance, that you refer to Papal primacy, which I have no trouble affirming, though a little trouble defining. but what you will be required to affirm is Papal supremacy, that the Holy Father possesses universal ordinary authority, which is not the same thing. If that is your belief, you are on your way. Personally, anyway. I’m a little curious about how the TAC affair is going to play out.
Morse’s successors are already in place. I wish them luck, as I do you, too.
GKC
traditional Anglican
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
I’m not privy to those negotiations, although I know one Priest who had better avoid all assemblages of 3 or more Bishops!
I hear that he was asked once, and he said, “no thank you,” but Holy Obedience can be a very powerful thing.
But, I don’t know how the choosing of Bishops will be worked out. I do know that we’ve got some pretty good ones, and that I’ve met a couple as well as the Archbishop, and that that’s par for the course.
Thank you for your continued prayers. May Our Lady continued to protect this enterprise.
In Him, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
GKC:
Well, Thankfully, my original judgement about you is correct. You’ve left ECUSA as well and are not trying to stay on the sinking ship.
I’m glad that Archbishop Morse has looked after the matter of his succession. What happened with ACNA was a disaster.
I forget, was it your son-in-law who was ordained in the Province of Christ the King?
Well, God Bless. I have to see if the Swim meet is on…
In Him, Michael
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GKC
Guest
Traditional Ang:
GKC
Anglicanus Catholicus
That’s a reasonable and logical assumption, but actually, I was never in ECUSA. By the time I was seriously Anglican-oriented, ECUSA was on the skids.
And it had such promise, in 1978.
Yes, ordained to the diaconate in the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (as we Anglo-Catholics say) about 2 1/2 years ago, after completing St. Joseph of Arimathea Seminary.
Keep us informed.
GKC
Anglicanus Catholicus
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boethius
Guest
Dear Traditional Anglican:
Thank you so much for your participation in this forum. My family will be swimming/jumping the Tiber soon (RCIA in the fall and confession/confirmation at Easter 2006). We are now part of the ECUSA and have been following the TAC’s talks with Rome very closely. Please keep us posted as things unfold.
I have several questions for you.
(1) Do you think the ARCIC (Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission) process has been a help or a hindrance?
(2) Do you know St. Clement’s Church (ECUSA) in Philadelphia?
s-clements.org/
It was here (after visiting on Low Sunday and Corpus Christi) that I viscerally became Anglo-Catholic. If you do know the church, do you think they might join the TAC in order to benefit from full communion?
(3) Why do you think the response to the Anglican Use has been so weak? Will the TAC use the “Book of Divine Worship” or the English Missal? Will the Anglican Use congregations eventually be absorbed into the Anglican Catholic Rite or remain independent?
Thanks again,
Boethius
Thank you so much for your participation in this forum. My family will be swimming/jumping the Tiber soon (RCIA in the fall and confession/confirmation at Easter 2006). We are now part of the ECUSA and have been following the TAC’s talks with Rome very closely. Please keep us posted as things unfold.
I have several questions for you.
(1) Do you think the ARCIC (Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission) process has been a help or a hindrance?
(2) Do you know St. Clement’s Church (ECUSA) in Philadelphia?
s-clements.org/
It was here (after visiting on Low Sunday and Corpus Christi) that I viscerally became Anglo-Catholic. If you do know the church, do you think they might join the TAC in order to benefit from full communion?
(3) Why do you think the response to the Anglican Use has been so weak? Will the TAC use the “Book of Divine Worship” or the English Missal? Will the Anglican Use congregations eventually be absorbed into the Anglican Catholic Rite or remain independent?
Thanks again,
Boethius
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anglican65
Guest
You are absolutely correct on that. As an anglo-catholic, I read with great joy about reuniting with the apostolic see. Let’s face it, Henry the 8th broke with rome over non-theological reasons. It’s time to heal this 569 year schism. Possibly if the west unites, then the breach with the Eastern Orthodox would be next that has gone since 1054.
HagiaSophia:
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mercygate
Guest
As a former Anglican, I am convinced that mainstream Anglicanism has put itself outside the possibility of reconciliation. Maybe the breakaway groups have a chance. I know an Episcopal priest (ECUSA) who is actively working with both breakaway Anglicans and Rome . . . Hope is eternal. But for me, personally, I knew I had to wade the Tiber solo. There is no one single “right” solution.
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anglican65
Guest
Dear Sir:
What semi-autonomous means is that we anglo-catholics would have the right to retain our liturgy and our own governance; the Holy Father would select our bishops. *anglican100@yahoo.com[/email]
QUOTE=Exporter]I read this on this thread: “about possibly becoming a semi-autonomous Anglican rite of the Roman Catholic Church”
Now what does that mean…semi-autonomous? It does not do a thing for the Catholic church. It may give the Catholic a black eye. If they did that, all the advantages would go to the Anglicans. They could govern themselves, and hold the hand out for money from us Catholics.
If Rome does that, I loose respect…if those boys join up with the Catholic Church they must become Catholics!*
What semi-autonomous means is that we anglo-catholics would have the right to retain our liturgy and our own governance; the Holy Father would select our bishops. *anglican100@yahoo.com[/email]
QUOTE=Exporter]I read this on this thread: “about possibly becoming a semi-autonomous Anglican rite of the Roman Catholic Church”
Now what does that mean…semi-autonomous? It does not do a thing for the Catholic church. It may give the Catholic a black eye. If they did that, all the advantages would go to the Anglicans. They could govern themselves, and hold the hand out for money from us Catholics.
If Rome does that, I loose respect…if those boys join up with the Catholic Church they must become Catholics!*
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anglican65
Guest
also here’s a neat little twist. the anglican missal and the bcp are both based on the sarum rite which is catholic and introduced into england by a french catholic bishop in 1078.
GKC:
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oat_soda
Guest
don’t know if this is entirely accurate.
while some elements of the sarum rite may be in the 1928 liturgy, it also has crammer’s influence and has to be modified to represent the sacrafice of the mass which crammer removed.
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oat_soda
Guest
this place appears more catholic then my church… well almost, we have valid sacraments and our pastor was formerly anglican. he can also celebrate the divne liturgy of st. john cyrstosom and tridentine mass. he celebrates in latin w/greg. chant and uses the high altar, much like the pics here. i think he has just as many servers too. either way, that’s a great place to go to mass. too bad it’s episcopalian.
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