Anglicans to Rome?

[Traditional_Ang]

**Micheal, **

**Thanks for the info, I will read it carefully. I am glad to hear of these unions, for if you read my messages carefully, they are not attacking the angelican rite, and I volunteered that I was no authority on the subject. **

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**I also professed eagerly that whatever the Holy Father says goes {or whoever makes those decisions in the See of Peter}. **

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**My comments were more simplistic in the context of “Why the need for “different” “rites”?”. **

---

I meant not to be harsh and wholeheartedly apologize if I came off as such. I was simply questioning more the “need” to have different rites, why not just one? It would seem to be a matter of pride, which isn’t good is it? [There’s my ignorance showing again ]

**Then again, when I read your links maybe I will have a better understanding of “rites” in general. **

**Once again I ask your forgiveness, and may the Peace of the Lord be with you. **

Christ’s Love

Apology Accepted.

I stumbled into a church some 15 months ago after an absence of over 20 years, and frankly, I’m just glad they took me in. Right now, it seems wisest for me to stay where I’m planted and pray that they successfully complete the “Trans-Triberian Swim”.

Regarding “Rites” - I’ve had occassion to visit a “Novus Ordo” Parish, and I’ve seen one parish make unauthorized changes to the liturgy: Drop the Psalm between OT & NT Lessons; Drop the Nicene Creed during the Sunday Mass (NO PROFESSION OF FAITH); Use the Prayers of the Faithful to advance a Political Agenda; Create their own Prayer of Consecration (It wasn’t in the Mass Booklet), etc. That was ONE Parish, and that was just what I caught.

I can guarantee you that we will show the Liturgy far more respect than described above. We will also show the Body and Blood of Our Lord the adoration and devotion you and I will agree He deserves.

I invite you to sample one of the services to see what I mean. I believe that you would be impressed.

Have you heard of the people who kept on writing their Bishops and the Pope until the Pope pretty much directed Archdiocesan Bishops to arrange for at least one Parish that would say the old Latin Rite in their Archdioceses?

They did all this writing so they could attend TRIDENTINE (“INDULT”) MASSES, while they kept attending Novus Ordo Masses in their Parishes. The program was so successful that one Archdiocese in Virginia has 2 Parishes that are Tridentine only Parishes (this in spite of the fact the Archbishop’s committed to the Novus Ordo).

And, then you have the VARIETY of Eastern Catholic Churches in Union with and Submitted to the See of Peter. Irish Melkite can give you more detail on how this works
(Post #26 RCC? Correct Term?) - Use this link: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=112135&postcount=26

His description is better than my links. Archbishop Hepworth is talking about a slightly closer union than what Irish Melkite seems to describe.

God willing, I will be a member of the Anglican Catholic Church in Union with and Submitted His Holiness, Pope John Paul II.

Please, keep us in your prayers.

In Him, Michael

 

[GKC]

oat soda:

you’re wrong. how can two churches that are not in communion with one another both be “one” catholic church? i guess your definition of “one” is different then mine.

Greetings, oat soda.

It’s called “schism”.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

GKC:

oat soda:

you’re wrong. how can two churches that are not in communion with one another both be “one” catholic church? i guess your definition of “one” is different then mine.

Greetings, oat soda.

It’s called “schism”.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

Schism does not make two churches that are both “one” church.

The Church that enters schism leaves the One True Church when they enter into schism.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

GKC:

Greetings, oat soda.

It’s called “schism”.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

It’s also called “Sad”, “Tragic” and “Sinful”, and must grieve Our Lord to no end. The C of E and the Churches in union with the See of Canterbury (in the light of “Ordinatio Sacerdotalis”) have made that re-union impossible.

That’s probably why His Holiness chose the TAC and any groups that would join it in the “Trans-Triberian Swim” (“Trademark” Fr. Ambrose, Post #45).

Several Anglican disident groups groups have expressed interest in joining us. I’m not too sure how many are serious about uniting with the Catholic Church and how many would just be a hindrance. That will have to sort itself out.

May the Peace of the Lord be with thy spirit.

In Him, Michael

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Traditional Ang:

that would join it in the “Trans-Tiberian Swim” (“Trademark” Fr. Ambrose, Post #45).

I like “Trans-Tiberian”. It echoes with Trans-Siberian.

But “swim” is awkward. Any suggestions?

Síd ocus soinmige dúib isin blíadnai-seo do·thét!
Peace and happiness to you all in this coming year!

 

[GKC]

Traditional Ang:

It’s also called “Sad”, “Tragic” and “Sinful”, and must grieve Our Lord to no end. The C of E and the Churches in union with the See of Canterbury (in the light of “Ordinatio Sacerdotalis”) have made that re-union impossible

.

To be sure, that is one reason. Which is why my jurisdiction is not in communion with +Cantaur.

That’s probably why His Holiness chose the TAC and any groups that would join it in the “Trans-Triberian Swim” (“Trademark” Fr. Ambrose, Post #45).

Several Anglican disident groups groups have expressed interest in joining us. I’m not too sure how many are serious about uniting with the Catholic Church and how many would just be a hindrance. That will have to sort itself out.

Can you name any of the groups that are interested? Or is that close-hold?

May the Peace of the Lord be with thy spirit.

In Him, Michael

Many thanks.

And if ++Hepworth’s efforts do not turn out as you hope, remember you always have the option of submitting, personally, yourself, given your own convictions.

GKC

 

[oat_soda]

God willing, I will be a member of the Anglican Catholic Church in Union with and Submitted His Holiness, Pope John Paul II.
Please, keep us in your prayers.

I will pray for your church and i agree that the anglican liturgy will be an improvement over the typical banal novus ordo celebrated in many average parishes. full commuion would be a blessing for the church as it would be with the separated eastern churches. be assured satan will do everything he can to hinder a reunion.

i have to warn you though. satan’s smoke has entered the church and is in the vatican. don’t be surprised to under go hardships and trials. as you know the catholic church is full of sinners and Judas’s. it is to be expected that God chastises those he loves. but, you’ll be in comunion with the see of Peter, which is the rock and the gates of hell will not prevail against it (as it did with the ECA).

 

[twf]

TheGarg: Actually, the more rites the merrier, in my oppinion. There are many ways to validly celebrate the Divine Liturgy (or Mass). Catholicism is for all peoples everywhere in all times. It should not be limited to one particular culture. Why should Greek Catholics be forced to worship in a Roman fashion when they have celebrated Divine Liturgy in their own fashion for centuries? Or why should these Traditional Anglicans give up their beautiful liturgy to use a liturgy that is not theirs? Catholic doctrine they certainly must accept, but disciplines can vary deppending on the circumstances. The Truth of the Church should be adopted into all cultural contextes. The Latin Rite is not the only way to celebrate the sacraments…until Trent, more than one Rite was praticed in Europe alone. DIVERSITY WITHIN UNITY! Amen.
Here’s what The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:
CCC#1203The liturgical traditions or rites presently in use in the Church are the Latin (principally the Roman rite, ut also the rites of certain local churches, such as the Ambrosian rite, or those of certain religious orders) and the Byzantine, Alexandrian or Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Maronite, and Chaldean rites. In “faithful obedience to tradition, the sacred Council declares that Holy Mother Church holds all lawfully recognized rites to be of equal right and dignity, and that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way.” [SC 4].
(I do agree, however, that if a group refused to join the Holy Catholic Church if not given its own rite, that would be wrong and prideful).

Traditional Anglican: I really hope and pray this all works out. Believe it or not, I sometimes have imagined/hoped that someday there would be an Anglican Catholic Church.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

twf:

TheGarg: Actually, the more rites the merrier.

Better not stir the Irish up! Fifty four million world-wide. They had the English usage Sarum rite imposed on them in the 12th centry by the Anglo-Norman invaders. Next thing you know they’ll be saying: “Give us back our own rite” and starting mass printings of the Lorrha Missal. :yup: :clapping: :bounce: :yup:

 

[Traditional_Ang]

oat soda:

I will pray for your church and i agree that the anglican liturgy will be an improvement over the typical banal novus ordo celebrated in many average parishes. full commuion would be a blessing for the church as it would be with the separated eastern churches. be assured satan will do everything he can to hinder a reunion.

i have to warn you though. satan’s smoke has entered the church and is in the vatican. don’t be surprised to under go hardships and trials. as you know the catholic church is full of sinners and Judas’s. it is to be expected that God chastises those he loves. but, you’ll be in comunion with the see of Peter, which is the rock and the gates of hell will not prevail against it (as it did with the ECA).

I know about both sides of that, from personal experience.

That’s why we were told to keep this quiet until the articles came out. At some point, I quess they decided leaks were going to occur sooner or later, and I should have been reading the newsletter…

I have personal knowledge of and unimpeachable sources about one situation that occured some 25 years ago that may be part of why the Pope has chosen to do it this way rather than leaving it to Ordinaries to accept Anglican Use Parishes.

I can only say that one priest was ruined and a parish nearly closed down except for Orthodox Jewish converts who insisted that they wouldn’t let it happen, and that that’s why the parish that my Father helped found joined what was then called the Antiochan Church Western Rite.

I live in the Archdiocese of the successor to the Archbishop who was involved in the above situation, who was then involved in it himself. He still doesn’t want Anglican Use Parishes in his Archdiocese, and he’s a liberal who runs a liberal seminary.

On top of that, the parish I attend accepted me, garbage and all, after a 20 year absence and unemployed. And, I now have friends there I can talk to for hours after Mass.

Doing the “Trans Tiberian Swim” on my own would be a last resort given the Archdiocese I live in and the people who took me in. If I lived in the one EWTN broadcasts from, or even near their parish, it would probably be a different story, and I might be able to get a couple to join me if it came to that.

Let us pray that the Devil and his Minions won’t be able to hinder the Re-union. It’s important for the Body of Christ that is His Church to come together where it can.

In Him, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

GKC:

.

Can you name any of the groups that are interested? Or is that close-hold?
Many thanks.
GKC

First Remember the Churches on this list are in the TAC:

The Traditional Anglican Communion

acahome.org/tac/members/members.htm

Some of the others that are interested are surmise from reading The Messenger, and some from listening to some gossip (I know-tsk tsk):

acahome.org/tac/news/messenger.htm

Anglican Province of Christ the King (APCK)
Holy Catholic Church (Anglican Rite)
Anglican Catholic Church

My suspicion is that most of the dissident Anglican Groups that believe in the REAL PRESENCE of CHRIST in the Eucharist and the SACERDOTAL MALE PRIESTHOOD will be interested. The more “High Church” (esp. in doctrine), the more likely they will be to be interested enough not to just get in the way.

Check my My friends at the Fellowship of Concerned Churchmen: netministries.org/see/charmin/CM06091

Then, Check David Virtue: virtueonline.org/portal/index.php

And this list from the ACA: acahome.org/submenu/links.htm

Otherwise, your guess is as good as mine. Except for my present parish, I was last in an Episcopal (dissident or otherwise), some 25 years ago, and was with the founder of the Fellowship of Concerned Churchmen and his family 21 years ago.

I hope this made this clearer than mud.

Pray that the ones who really want to come will figure that out and come, and that those who don’t will be charitable to get out of the way, so the rest of us can do what we need to do.

And Pray that ALL who really want to come make it. And please, dedicate this to Mary, the Blessed Mother of God, so that the Devil can’t muck up the works.

Thank you.

Shalom/Peace, Michael

 

[GKC]

Traditional Ang:

First Remember the Churches on this list are in the TAC:

The Traditional Anglican Communion

acahome.org/tac/members/members.htm

Some of the others that are interested are surmise from reading The Messenger, and some from listening to some gossip (I know-tsk tsk):

acahome.org/tac/news/messenger.htm

Anglican Province of Christ the King (APCK)
Holy Catholic Church (Anglican Rite)
Anglican Catholic Church

My suspicion is that most of the dissident Anglican Groups that believe in the REAL PRESENCE of CHRIST in the Eucharist and the SACERDOTAL MALE PRIESTHOOD will be interested. The more “High Church” (esp. in doctrine), the more likely they will be to be interested enough not to just get in the way.

Check my My friends at the Fellowship of Concerned Churchmen: netministries.org/see/charmin/CM06091

Then, Check David Virtue: virtueonline.org/portal/index.php

And this list from the ACA: acahome.org/submenu/links.htm

Otherwise, your guess is as good as mine. Except for my present parish, I was last in an Episcopal (dissident or otherwise), some 25 years ago, and was with the founder of the Fellowship of Concerned Churchmen and his family 21 years ago.

I hope this made this clearer than mud.

Pray that the ones who really want to come will figure that out and come, and that those who don’t will be charitable to get out of the way, so the rest of us can do what we need to do.

And Pray that ALL who really want to come make it. And please, dedicate this to Mary, the Blessed Mother of God, so that the Devil can’t muck up the works.

Thank you.

Shalom/Peace, Michael

Traditional Ang,

Thanks for replying. From my experience in the APCK, I doubt seriously that there willl be any parishes interested in what the TAC is attempting. The idea of the Real Presence, and the insistence on the male sacerdotal priesthood (certainly found in the APCK, and elsewhere) are necessary, but not sufficent, prerequisites for the idea of submission. There must also be an acceptance, a ready affirmation, of some particular RC distinctives, the Papal issue being the most prominent. I do not think that such exists in the APCK as I knew it. Indeed, in the rest of the Continuum generally, I would guess (and it is only a guess) that only individuals, not any corporate structures, would be interested. The HCC-AR possibly being the best bet otherwise.

But, who knows. It will work out as God wills it. I watch the process with interest, and hope that all for whom the concept of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church requires communion with/submission to the Holy See, find their way home.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus

 

[oat_soda]

i would have to say the biggest issue i have with the catholic church is the reform of the liturgy. here is what sancrosanctum concilium says about the purpose of reform:

1. This sacred Council has several aims in view: it desires to impart an ever increasing vigor to the Christian life of the faithful; to adapt more suitably to the needs of our own times those institutions which are subject to change; to foster whatever can promote union among all who believe in Christ; to strengthen whatever can help to call the whole of mankind into the household of the Church. The Council therefore sees particularly cogent reasons for undertaking the reform and promotion of the liturgy.

my question is, has the liturgical reform helped promote union between our separated christians? i have heard that the church had many more protestant converts prior to VII because of the beauty of the liturgy. now i know it was never perfect, but can we honestly say that we have expieranced any good fruits yet? has the typical normative mass brought anglicans to the church? i fact, i think it is a scandal to orthodox churches and anglicans. it’s a serious problem in the church in which the vatican is completely to blame, including paul vi. i don’t want to get into it, but most of the liturgical reforms can be shown to have been unessesary and harmful to the faithful.

 

[oat_soda]

i would have to say the biggest issue i have with the catholic church is the reform of the liturgy. here is what sancrosanctum concilium says about the purpose of reform:

1. This sacred Council has several aims in view: it desires to impart an ever increasing vigor to the Christian life of the faithful; to adapt more suitably to the needs of our own times those institutions which are subject to change; to foster whatever can promote union among all who believe in Christ; to strengthen whatever can help to call the whole of mankind into the household of the Church. The Council therefore sees particularly cogent reasons for undertaking the reform and promotion of the liturgy.

my question is, has the liturgical reform helped promote union between our separated christians? i have heard that the church had many more protestant converts prior to VII because of the beauty of the liturgy. now i know it was never perfect, but can we honestly say that we have expieranced any good fruits yet? has the typical normative mass brought anglicans to the church? i fact, i think it is a scandal to orthodox churches and anglicans. it’s a serious problem in the church in which the vatican is completely to blame, including paul vi. i don’t want to get into it, but most of the liturgical reforms can be shown to have been unnecessary and harmful to the faithful.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

oat soda:

i would have to say the biggest issue i have with the catholic church is the reform of the liturgy. here is what sancrosanctum concilium says about the purpose of reform: my question is, has the liturgical reform helped promote union between our separated christians? i have heard that the church had many more protestant converts prior to VII because of the beauty of the liturgy. now i know it was never perfect, but can we honestly say that we have expieranced any good fruits yet? has the typical normative mass brought anglicans to the church? i fact, i think it is a scandal to orthodox churches and anglicans. it’s a serious problem in the church in which the vatican is completely to blame, including paul vi. i don’t want to get into it, but most of the liturgical reforms can be shown to have been unnecessary and harmful to the faithful.

I understand that a “drying out” process began in the Church in the 1950’s, partially as a result of scheduling too many masses too close together in congregations that were just too large for people to know and care about each other. Priests and congregations started “doing the Mass by Rote” rather than as a “Joyful Obligation unto the Lord”, and the Liturgical Reforms of Vatican II never resolved that because the Bishops (esp. in the USA and the Western World) weren’t willing to deal with the root causes.

The present Novus Ordo has good points and bad points. One of the good points is that, when given enough time, it does encourage far more participation by the Laity than the old Tridentine Mass, where the Laity tended to be “Spectators”.

One problem with the Novus Ordo is that, because the Priest faces the people, if he “does the Mass by Rote”, the entire congregation joins him in that level of spirituality. Another is the language, which is “Utilitariarian” and has little beauty, majesty, mystery or awe unless someone purposely puts it in.

I’m not a Catholic, so I feel that I should pretty much leave the rest alone.

Let us hope and pray that Holy Mother Church will find her way out of this maze so that she can deal with the 500,000 or more Anglicans and others who will be seeking safe sanctuary in the next few years.

In Him, Michael

 

[twf]

Traditional Ang: Like I said, I find the idea most appealing (of an Anglican Catholic Church in communion with the Church of Rome), but I wonder, will all the individual Christians of the TAC be willing to accept such doctrines as papal primacy and infallibility, the immaculate conception and assumption of our Lady, purgatory, etc?

God bless,
In Christ,
Tyler

 

[mean_owen]

twf:

Traditional Ang: Like I said, I find the idea most appealing (of an Anglican Catholic Church in communion with the Church of Rome), but I wonder, will all the individual Christians of the TAC be willing to accept such doctrines as papal primacy and infallibility, the immaculate conception and assumption of our Lady, purgatory, etc?

God bless,
In Christ,
Tyler

and don’t forget march mackerel madness…

 

[ZoeTheodora]

TheGarg:

I think that they should swallow their pride and do things according to the Church. Anything else would be in the fashion of current protestantism, and self defeating.

Anyone who is “subject to the routine of thier ways” are not “subject to the routine of Christ’s way”. His Will be done not ours.

Peace be to all.

But why on earth should we make things extra-hard for them? What purpose does that serve?

Why make converts jump through all sorts of extra hoops that the rest of us don’t have to jump through?

I didn’t have to jump through countless hoops to become a Catholic. The priest poured water on my little baby head, pronounced the words of baptism, and that was that!

I agree that obedience is an indispensable Christian virtue, but those exacting the obedience must be prudent and charitable, not arbitrary, cruel, and authoritarian.

I know I cherish the traditions I grew up with, and I’d feel very uncomfortable if I were entirely deprived of them–the old Catholic hymns, the statues, the Holy Cards, the icons, the devotions.

Similarly, I can see why Anglicans would feel just as justifiably attached to their own traditions: the beautiful language of their liturgy, the sonorous organ music, the stately grandeur of their churches.

Why should they be deprived of all that? What’s the point?

The more Cranmerian parts of the Anglican liturgy are incompatible with Catholic Eucharistic doctrine, but I understand that’s been entirely taken care of in the Anglican Use liturgy. So…where’s the problem?

For the life of me, I can’t understand why we would want to make things extra-hard for our Anglican brethren–harder than for ourselves. Why? Cui bono?

Bishop Ireland did this sort of thing to the eastern Catholics, and just look at the horrible result. We are still recovering from it!

Haven’t we learned our lesson?

Blessings,

ZT

 

[mercygate]

ZoeTheodora:

But why on earth should we make things extra-hard for them? What purpose does that serve?

I agree that obedience is an indispensable Christian virtue, but those exacting the obedience must be prudent and charitable, not arbitrary, cruel, and authoritarian.

Similarly, I can see why Anglicans would feel just as justifiably attached to their own traditions: the beautiful language of their liturgy, the sonorous organ music, the stately grandeur of their churches.

Why should they be deprived of all that? What’s the point?

The more Cranmerian parts of the Anglican liturgy are incompatible with Catholic Eucharistic doctrine, but I understand that’s been entirely taken care of in the Anglican Use liturgy. So…where’s the problem?

ZT,
You, the Pope, and Cardinal Ratzinger all seem to be on the same page.

Moreover, the Tiber-leaping Anglicans are already doctrinally more “catholic” than half the people in Catholic pews today.
The non-Tiber-leaping Anglicans are staying where they are exactly because they are not catholic minded. Lemme tell ya, the left-leaning management of my parish was NOT glad to see this Anglican coming with my full-hearted embrace of the Magisterium . . .

 

[GKC]

Greetings, mercygate,

“The non-Tiber-leaping Anglicans are staying where they are exactly because they are not catholic minded.”

Not completely accurate, but understandable from your perspective. From the prespective of the orthodox Anglican remnant, we’re here because we are not sufficiently Roman Catholic minded.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus