Anglicans to Rome?

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Fr Ambrose:
Yet how many refrain from taking communion? How many pray, “Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldst enter under my roof…” But still we eat and drink the “fire of the Godhead” and we are not destroyed because of our iniquities. Although we are not ready, God condescends to our frailty and our sinfulness. God comes to take up His abode in us without our total purification.
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Rr. Ambrose:

In our Liturgy, we say,"…Our bodies washed by your body and our souls washed in your most prescious blood…"

Do you remember the ad for “Wonder Bread”, “Builds strong bodies in 12 ways?” Well (I know this is goign to sound cheesy), but the Eucharist builds STRONG souls in a number of ways…I haven’t begun counting them yet, but I wouldn’t stand a chance resisting the temptations of the world, the flesh and the devil if it weren’t for my regular consumption of it.

So, the Eucharist is there at least partly to help me resist those urges which would pull me away from God, and Holiness.

I understand that the Beatific Vision will be far, far more intense, St. Thomas Aquinas saw a glimpse a few weeks before he died. He was dropped right in his tracks, almost dead and quite unconscious with the marks of Jesus on his feet and hands and in his side. When the Brothers were able to get him to come to, all he could say was, “Straw, Straw. All I have written is straw compared to the WONDER I have just seen!”

I never wrote another word from then until the day he died - One of the most eloquent men in history could not describe the Vision of God’s Face, God’s full Shekinah Glory.

Remember, God would not allow Moses to see His face, only his back, and the High Priest always had a bell and a rope tied to him when he went in to the Holy of Holies, and those who held the rope were to pull the body out if the bell stopped ringing.

Some of us need more work than others before we can see what St. Thomas glimpsed.

May Bless you and your congregation during your preparations for LENT.

In Christ, Michael
 
Exporter said:
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Yes I know about the heirarchy and organization of the Jesuits, yes I know that from the begining the Jesuits answer directly to the Pope. They do not have to bend to the local Bishop,
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Actually they respond to their Regional Provincial who reports to their Father General who is elected by them with a certain degree of autonomy as are all the other orders. Some Jesuits do take the fourth vow to give special service to the pope, but not all. They are basically ruled by their Constitutions and governed by their elected Provincials and Father General.
 
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boethius:
Dear Traditional Anglican,

Could you tell us a bit about how the sacraments are carried out in the TAC? I’m thinking in particular about confession, confirmation, last rites, etc. (With regard to the Eucharst, does the celebrant face the East, is the gospel read on the “gospel-side” or among the people, is communion received under both species, do you practice paedo-communion?)

Also, are there any special features of the liturgical year? Special “Anglican” saints, the observance of Septuagesima, Ember days, etc.? I assume that Corpus Christ is already celebrated (contra the 39 articles).

Also (finally), does the TAC have any confraternities devoted to the Blessed Virgin, etc.?

I’d be curious to hear from members of other continuing Anglican communions as well.

Will any of these special features be modified once full communion with Rome is reached?

Cheers,
Boethius
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Boethus

GKC and Mean_Owen have both given pretty good descriptions of how most Medium to High Church Anglican worship. GKC is right about where I worship. As I put it, the Orthodox Rabbi dropped me at the Christian version of his religion.

We have dropped the 39 Articles, as have many other Anglicans. Having just read them, I’m rather glad about that fact. We have the 7 Sacraments as do other Catholics (and I’ve already dropped the Bombshell from the Vatican about our Orders).

Regarding the Mass - my parish is on pretty much a North-South Axis (Property Constraints) But the Priests do most of the Liturgy facing away from the Congregation (facing South-East). Picture a 17th Century Translation of the Tridentine Liturgy done with all the bells and smells, that’s more responsive with a more enthusiastic Cong., and you got it! We do 2 Low Masses each Sunday and a Solemn High Mass which takes 1-2/3 hours, with an OT (Prophetic Lesson) read by a LAYPERSON, a Non-Gospel NT Epistle (Song by a vested “Subdeacon”) on the Epistle or Left side as you face the Cong., and the Gospel (Song by a vested “Deacon”) from the middle of the Cong. after procession.

We sing the Aspergis Domini (in Latin) and use incense all over the place. When our Ceremonarius had a near fatal stroke, Rabbis went to the Kotel with his name, and his name was placed in prayer over many parishes in the TAC. He’s now much better, although he’ll need a tripod cane for most of the rest of his life. We use much of the Anglican Missal, which feature 17th Century trans. of the propers of the Tridentine Liturgy. Most of the Congregation receive the Body of Christ on the Tongue, although many do in the Hand as well.

We recently had 7 children receive their First Communion after a 2 months long course. They were 5-7 years old, The boys wore tuxedo suits. The girls wore white wedding dresses. They were all treasures to behold. They kneeled to receive the Body of Christ, and each one stood in turn to receive the Blood of Christ as his/her parents watched.

Baptisms are done by the pastor to the acompaniment of the entire cong. who file over to the Bapistry to witness and participate in a raucous celebration of a New Life in Christ.

And, Biships and Archbishops still make their rounds. I call Bishop Stewart “Bishop CAG”, because he’s a MOH recipient from Vietnam as a Commander Air Group. His RO owes his life to him for what he did one day while he himself was severely wounded.

I once participated in a Solemn High Mass where Bishop CAG Confirmed some people (some teengers & 1 adult), Received a man into the church, and Ordained a Sub-deacon and a Deacon. 2-1/3 hours later, we were all exhausted! The only thing missing was the Ordination of a Priest, He had done that on his last trip.

We have Septuagesima, Sexagesima and Quinqagesima as well as the old style Lentin Fast…We do Corpus Christi (along with a procession - Our Rector loves processions around the neighborhood, any excuse will do)

And we still do the Season of TRINITY, instead of “Ordinary Time”. And, they’re looking forward to adding NAMES to the “Kalendar” of sacred worship and devotion.

Blessings.

In Christ, Michael
 
Some Questions about Mary and the TAC - I know that some in the TAC will have problems with some of the Marion Doctrines (esp. the Lower Church Members), as do many Anglicans, but I also know some who can prove those doctrines FROM SCRIPTURE.

Archbishop Hepworth is quite sure of the need to unite with the Pope and has been making that case in the official “organs” of the TAC. Many of the people who have difficulties with some of the Catholic doctrines will have their questions answered.

Those who absolutely can’t accept the answers will have to find NON-Catholic homes in other dissident Angican Churches, because I’m very much sure that the swim meet is ON. I’ve accepted the answers and remain where I am partly from obedience.

Regarding Marian societies, I’m sure there are some. I just don’t know what they are. Meanwhile, I do the Angelus daily and say the Rosary with Mother Angelica (EWTN). We will end Vespers wilth a Marian devotion. The same thing for Morning Prayer. There are many who say the Rosary daily and have their own well-worn Rosaries. They just haven’t heard about the “LUMINOUS MYSTERIES”, which I’ve heard about here and on EWTN.

I hope this, and my previous post, answer your question.

Now I need to go to bed.

God Bless you all.

In Christ, Michael
 
Traditional Ang:
Boethus

GKC and Mean_Owen have both given pretty good descriptions of how most Medium to High Church Anglican worship. GKC is right about where I worship. As I put it, the Orthodox Rabbi dropped me at the Christian version of his religion.

We have dropped the 39 Articles, as have many other Anglicans. Having just read them, I’m rather glad about that fact. We have the 7 Sacraments as do other Catholics (and I’ve already dropped the Bombshell from the Vatican about our Orders).

Regarding the Mass - my parish is on pretty much a North-South Axis (Property Constraints) But the Priests do most of the Liturgy facing away from the Congregation (facing South-East). Picture a 17th Century Translation of the Tridentine Liturgy done with all the bells and smells, that’s more responsive with a more enthusiastic Cong., and you got it! We do 2 Low Masses each Sunday and a Solemn High Mass which takes 1-2/3 hours, with an OT (Prophetic Lesson) read by a LAYPERSON, a Non-Gospel NT Epistle (Song by a vested “Subdeacon”) on the Epistle or Left side as you face the Cong., and the Gospel (Song by a vested “Deacon”) from the middle of the Cong. after procession.

We sing the Aspergis Domini (in Latin) and use incense all over the place. When our Ceremonarius had a near fatal stroke, Rabbis went to the Kotel with his name, and his name was placed in prayer over many parishes in the TAC. He’s now much better, although he’ll need a tripod cane for most of the rest of his life. We use much of the Anglican Missal, which feature 17th Century trans. of the propers of the Tridentine Liturgy. Most of the Congregation receive the Body of Christ on the Tongue, although many do in the Hand as well.

We recently had 7 children receive their First Communion after a 2 months long course. They were 5-7 years old, The boys wore tuxedo suits. The girls wore white wedding dresses. They were all treasures to behold. They kneeled to receive the Body of Christ, and each one stood in turn to receive the Blood of Christ as his/her parents watched.

Baptisms are done by the pastor to the acompaniment of the entire cong. who file over to the Bapistry to witness and participate in a raucous celebration of a New Life in Christ.

And, Biships and Archbishops still make their rounds. I call Bishop Stewart “Bishop CAG”, because he’s a MOH recipient from Vietnam as a Commander Air Group. His RO owes his life to him for what he did one day while he himself was severely wounded.

I once participated in a Solemn High Mass where Bishop CAG Confirmed some people (some teengers & 1 adult), Received a man into the church, and Ordained a Sub-deacon and a Deacon. 2-1/3 hours later, we were all exhausted! The only thing missing was the Ordination of a Priest, He had done that on his last trip.

We have Septuagesima, Sexagesima and Quinqagesima as well as the old style Lentin Fast…We do Corpus Christi (along with a procession - Our Rector loves processions around the neighborhood, any excuse will do)

And we still do the Season of TRINITY, instead of “Ordinary Time”. And, they’re looking forward to adding NAMES to the “Kalendar” of sacred worship and devotion.

Blessings.

In Christ, Michael
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Well, it is as I thought. There you have it. St. Mary’s does it right. My own parish has nowhere near the resources required for that style, nor is it likely quite high or Anglo-Catholic (the 2 concepts are not identical, but related) enough to support it, but, mutatis mutandis, we do much the same. The traditional Liturgical calendar is used year round, for example, and we do a sung Angelus after each Mass.

The question of the attitude of Rome to the Orders still fascinates me. My own rector can trace his lines, in 3 easy steps, back to the day in 1962 when PNCC bishops laid hands on Albert Chambers. And so can many in the traditional Anglican movement, generally. And other places, too. If Rome’s position is changing, there might be …interesting times ahead.

Do keep us informed.

GKC
 
A Little History, and how a Pope should apply “Ecumenism” without selling out the Church, which is what many non-Catholics hope for

Back in the 1800’s certain Roman Catholic leaders with some of their Anglican friends, were attempting “unity” with Rome, whilst entertaining strange illusions as to how this would be accomplished. It was in the spring of 1895, when the great Pope Leo XIII caused the English to see, that to become a Catholic, one might still remain an Englishman, but not an Anglican. There was no equivocating with this pope!

Following his Spring Letter, he gave another in June 1895. Pope Leo traces for them and all of us, the image of the Church, sketches her prominent features, bringing out in relief the characteristic mark of her Unity. Never did Leo ever give up any of her Rights and Prerogatives. There was no compromising and no suppressing of the truth in favour of Conciliarism as has been done by the weak signators of Vatican II.

It was again in the spring of 1896 when this holy Pontiff appointed a Commission to re-examine the whole question of the “validity” of Anglican “orders”. In September of that year, he decreed a most important and Infallible Judgment, called “Apostolicae Curae”, showing that Anglican Orders, according to the Ewardine Ordinal had in those Three centuries, regarded the Catholic Apostolic Church as Null and Void. The re-examination of this Anglican Ordinal proved that the Sacrament of Holy Orders no longer existed in the Anglican Church.

**Later that year Leo XIII settled the matter for all time, answering in detail the three ingredients that make up a valid Sacrament: the Intent, the matter, and the form of the rite of Ordination. **

Those on both sides who tried for a false unity fell back and admitted that The Judgment had overthrown their whole position.

In Pope Leo XIII’s Bulla declaring Anglican Orders invalid, we have a powerful weapon to use against this false new Montinian Rite. Let us use it, just as Leo XIII showed the substantial defects, and the corrupt intention of the persons ordaining this rite and its intention of manifestly excluding the essence of the priesthood, namely the power to offer Divine Sacrifice, thus resulting in the invalidity of the Sacraments when the Form does not truly Signify the Effect intended by Christ, and the Church HE founded. This can easity be used and show up this new Vatican II rite in possibly exposing its invalidity.

This decree of Leo XIII, as might be expected brought forth howls of anger from the Anglicans! Responding to this reaction the Cardinal and Bishops of the Province of Westminster wrote a “Vindication of the Bulla of Pope Leo XIII.”

In their own document, the English Bishops {of Leo XIII’s time} using the judgment of Pope Leo XIII wrote their: “Catholic Doctrine of the Priesthood “a.k.a. “The Vindication.” “Priest and Sacrifice are correlative terms with us at all times, and indeed with all nations, except insofar as your own Communion may be an exception. A Priest is one who offers sacrifice: and as it is the sacrifice, so it is the priest who offers it. Since our sacrifice is the Sacrifice of the Mass, and Our priest is one appointed and empowered to offer up that sacrifice; then one who has received this power from God by means of the words of consecration in the Canon of the Mass, to cause the Body and Blood of Christ to become present under the appearances of bread and wine, and to offer them up sacrificially. The priest may have other powers annexed to his office, such as the power to forgive sins; and he may likewise be charged with the duty of preaching the word of God, and exercising pastoral care over the people consigned to him. But these other powers and duties are super-added and consequent. They are suitably annexed to the priesthood, but they are not of its essence. ”Here is the clear teaching of the essence of the priesthood, confirmed not only by the manner in which Our Lord instituted the Sacrament of Order and Penance, but by the practice of the Catholic Church in Her traditional Rites whereby after the priest is Ordained, the bishop then invokes the Holy Ghost, and by the imposition of hands and the accompanying prayer, transmits to the newly-ordained priest the power to forgive sins.
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HagiaSophia:
God is striving to do a whole new thing to unite his people," he said. Later he exclaimed in Latin: “Ut unum sint,” or “that all may be one,” a reference to Pope John Paul II’s 1995 encyclical of that name, in which the pope invited non-Roman Catholic Christians into greater affiliation with the papacy.

philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/10456533.htm
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CrusaderNY:
I we have a powerful weapon to use against this false new Montinian Rite…
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And just whose history is this? Who wrote this and shouldn’t you be giving them credit for it? Who is it that claims the Mass post council is “false”?

Your quotes refer to the validity of Anglican orders; this question was revisited a few years back and reiterated so I fail to see your point. OTOH you lately have taken to placing identical posts in more than one thread which does make it somewhat confusing.
 
Greetings, CrusaderNY,
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CrusaderNY:
It was again in the spring of 1896 when this holy Pontiff appointed a Commission to re-examine the whole question of the “validity” of Anglican “orders”. In September of that year, he decreed a most important and Infallible Judgment, called “Apostolicae Curae”, showing that Anglican Orders, according to the Ewardine Ordinal had in those Three centuries, regarded the Catholic Apostolic Church as Null and Void. The re-examination of this Anglican Ordinal proved that the Sacrament of Holy Orders no longer existed in the Anglican Church.
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Well, that’s certainly a spirited statement of the RCC position in AC, to be sure. And I’m certain it proved it to the RCC, generally.

You got a good idea why the commision was appointed? I mean, what raised the issue? And AC is infallible, not ex cathedra, but …how? I’m familiar with Cardianl Ratzinger’s reiteration
This decree of Leo XIII, as might be expected brought forth howls of anger from the Anglicans! Responding to this reaction the Cardinal and Bishops of the Province of Westminster wrote a “Vindication of the Bulla of Pope Leo XIII.”
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Not familiar with howls, but am familiar with *Saepius Officio *

I got a habit of mentioning Father John J. Hughes’ 2 books on AC, ABSOLUTELY NULL AND UTTERLY VOID and STEWARDS OF THE LORD, explaining the Anglican position, and (then) Father Francis Clark’s ANGLICAN ORDERS AND DEFECT OF INTENTION, for the best scholarly exposition of the RCC position. I got feeling that I haven’t stirred anyone to look them up. Hope springs eternal.

GKC
 
Dear Traditional Anglican and others,

Thanks for your replies. On a related note, are any of you familiar with (and using) the Anglican Breviary (a translation with slight alterations of the pre-Vatican II Breviary)?
anglicanbreviary.com/
I became “intellectually” convinced that I should jump the Tiber after reading Newman, the Catholic Catechism and the Vatican II documents, but it was through praying the Anglican!] Breviary for a year that my heart joined my mind. Through the Breviary I learned a devotion to the Blessed Virgin and began to feel what it was like to be part of a two-thousand year practice of worship.
I don’t recall the source, but Newman did say that Anglicans had made him Catholic (as opposed to Catholic apologists). He did not intend this as a slander against Catholics (and I certainly do not) but rather as a recognition that God had used Anglicanism to bring him into the fullness of Christianity. Though I can hardly wait to enter into full communion with the Bishop of Rome and the Roman church, I will always be thankful for God’s graces that I received as an Anglican.

Blessings to you all,
Boethius

p.s. I understand that the TAC Bishops will be meeting in Rome this summer. Might there be a special announcement at that time?
 
CrusaderNY:

In your #143, you said ÒApostolicae CuraeÓ (which was a Papal Encyclical and NOT a Papal Bull spoken Ex Cathedra on a Matter of the Faith) is to be used as a weapon against fellow Christians (“this false new Montinian Rite”):

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=425920&postcount=143

I just googled (“Montinian Rite”). This is what I found:

Vatican II Rites – Are they valid?
by Eugene A. W. HowsonSurrey, England

Given here is a brief explanation of the Roman Pontifical for the ÒordinationÓ of bishops as revised by decree of the Second Vatican Council, and published under the ÒauthorityÓ of (false) Paul VI. Then follows an explanation of the Decree of Pope Leo XIII (Apostolicae Curae) where he defines for all time his judgment against Anglican orders as being totally ineffective. What Leo XIII says in the ChurchÕs binding judgment on the Anglicans can equally be applied against the defects inherent in the Vatican II Òordinations.ÓÊ

truecatholic.org/v2invalidrites.htm

It was one thing to have problems with the LIBERALISM & Unbelief that has afflicted many sectors of the Catholic Church. It is quite another to state that a Demonstrated Prophet (see the Fulfilled Prophecies of “Humanae Vitae”) is a FALSE POPE!

Now, back to the ORIGINAL TOPIC.

Our Lord himself, on the night in which he was betrayed, prayed for us to be ONE:

“And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are…so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one.”

John 17:11,21-22.

catholicapologetics.org/ap070300.htm

And you pray weekly, if not daily at each Mass you offer:

Priest: Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles: I leave you peace, my peace I give you. Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church, and grant us the peace and unity of your kingdom where you live for ever and ever.
All: Amen.

myweb.lmu.edu/fjust/Mass.htm

Pope Leo was telling Anglicans that, because of defects of the 16th and 17th Century Anglican Ordinals (which I’ve previously discussed) they needed Unity with the Catholic Church (and reordination by valid Bishops of the Catholic Church if they wanted to participate in the Grace of the Sacraments.

Since then, many Anglican priests and Bishops have received ordination and consecration from valid Bishops of the Catholic Church (this is esp. true of those in the "Continuoum’).

And, in the case of the Traditional Anglican Communion, soon to be the Anglican Communion church in UNITY with the See of Peter, our desire for UNITY with the Catholic Church (as evinced by my statements here and by Archbishop Hepworth’s statements in various publications and venues) is MANEFEST.

These seem to fulfill the desires of Pope Leo as expressed in ÒApostolicae CuraeÓ, and are consistent with the prayer of Our Lord in Gethsemane and that offered at the Mass.

To continue as you are is worse than folly. it is disobedience to the stated will of God.

Blessing.

In Christ, Michael
 
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GKC:
Greetings, CrusaderNY,

Well, that’s certainly a spirited statement of the RCC position in AC, to be sure. And I’m certain it proved it to the RCC, generally.

You got a good idea why the commision was appointed? I mean, what raised the issue? And AC is infallible, not ex cathedra, but …how? I’m familiar with Cardianl Ratzinger’s reiteration

Not familiar with howls, but am familiar with Saepius Officio
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**## See this link 🙂 to the document aforesaid: **http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgbmxd/saepius.htm
Regrettably, the 1898 “Vindication of the Bull” seems not to be on-line. ##

**
I got a habit of mentioning Father John J. Hughes’ 2 books on AC
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, ABSOLUTELY NULL AND UTTERLY VOID and STEWARDS OF THE LORD, explaining the Anglican position, and (then) Father Francis Clark’s ANGLICAN ORDERS AND DEFECT OF INTENTION, for the best scholarly exposition of the RCC position. I got feeling that I haven’t stirred anyone to look them up. Hope springs eternal.
GKC**
**## Are they both still in print in hardback ? **
**About “Apostolicae” - I thought it was an example of a dogmatic fact that the Bull was correct; but that the Bull was not in fact infallible. **
**If Anglican clergy should end up being validly ordained - validly from a Roman POV that is - the Bull would presumably lose its force and become a relic. **
**One way of drawing the teeth of the Bull might be to ask whether it can be regarded as having the weight claimed for it. If Byzantine-Rite Catholic Churches have the same theology as their separated brethren of the same Rite, would that not mean that they placed as little weight on canonical concepts such as validity as those Christians of the same Rite ? And if that is so, what is there to stop Catholics of that Rite being as prepared to maintain the validity of Anglican Orders as at least some of the Orthodox ? If that in turn were so, it looks as though the Bull might become a declaration of a part of the Catholic Church alone - of the Latin Rite and Church - dependent for its force on an understanding of Orders which was not that of the whole Church in union with the Pope. **

Or is this completely wrong-headed and ignorant nonsense ? ##
 
Traditional Anglican,

“In your #143, you said ÒApostolicae CuraeÓ (which was a Papal Encyclical and NOT a Papal Bull spoken Ex Cathedra…”

I’ve seen it referred to as an Apostolic Letter, and a Bull (Clark and Hughes refer to it as a Bull), but not as an Encyclical. But a Bull is not necessarily ex cathedra.

GKC
 
Gottle,
Are they both still in print in hardback ?
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Sadly, neither of Hughes’ books are in print, nor are Clark’s works. Accordingly, it takes a little effort to become historically informed on the question. Luckily, I was in the out of print book business once. Hughes’ ABSOLUTELY NULL is fairly easy to find, his STEWARDS is not. Clark falls between those extremes. It has been a while since I looked, but the most recent in print books on the subject I can recall were Tavard’s A REVIEW OF ANGLICAN ORDERS, and the collection of essays edited by Franklin, ESSAYS ON THE CENTENARY OF APOSTOLICAE CURAE
About “Apostolicae” - I thought it was an example of a dogmatic fact that the Bull was correct; but that the Bull was not in fact infallible./quote]
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It is my memory, subject to correction, that Cardinal Ratzinger’s reiteration of the force of AC said something of that sort. Certainly, it was not to be questioned.
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If Anglican clergy should end up being validly ordained - validly from a Roman POV that is - the Bull would presumably lose its force and become a relic.
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One way of drawing the teeth of the Bull might be to ask whether it can be regarded as having the weight claimed for it. If Byzantine-Rite Catholic Churches have the same theology as their separated brethren of the same Rite, would that not mean that they placed as little weight on canonical concepts such as validity as those Christians of the same Rite ? And if that is so, what is there to stop Catholics of that Rite being as prepared to maintain the validity of Anglican Orders as at least some of the Orthodox ? If that in turn were so, it looks as though the Bull might become a declaration of a part of the Catholic Church alone - of the Latin Rite and Church - dependent for its force on an understanding of Orders which was not that of the whole Church in union with the Pope.
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Or is this completely wrong-headed and ignorant nonsense ? ##
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It has a flaw, I think. The weak spot is assuming that both the separated and the in-communion East have the same understanding with respect to Orders. AFAIK, this is not so, in that the Eastern Orthodox look upon both Anglican and Roman Orders as the same. Equally “valid” but “empty”, in that no Orders outside of Orthodoxy can be truly “valid”. Obviously, Byzantine Catholics have a far different view…

GKC
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boethius:
Dear Traditional Anglican and others,

Thanks for your replies. On a related note, are any of you familiar with (and using) the Anglican Breviary (a translation with slight alterations of the pre-Vatican II Breviary)?
anglicanbreviary.com/
I became “intellectually” convinced that I should jump the Tiber after reading Newman, the Catholic Catechism and the Vatican II documents, but it was through praying the Anglican!] Breviary for a year that my heart joined my mind. Through the Breviary I learned a devotion to the Blessed Virgin and began to feel what it was like to be part of a two-thousand year practice of worship.
I don’t recall the source, but Newman did say that Anglicans had made him Catholic (as opposed to Catholic apologists). He did not intend this as a slander against Catholics (and I certainly do not) but rather as a recognition that God had used Anglicanism to bring him into the fullness of Christianity. Though I can hardly wait to enter into full communion with the Bishop of Rome and the Roman church, I will always be thankful for God’s graces that I received as an Anglican.

Blessings to you all,
Boethius

p.s. I understand that the TAC Bishops will be meeting in Rome this summer. Might there be a special announcement at that time?
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Boethius,

I own the Breviary, yes, By coincidence, the individual responsible for having it reprinted is also the author of a good monograph on Apostolicae Curae, HOLY ORDERS, HOLY SACRAMENTS.

GKC
 
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boethius:
Dear Traditional Anglican and others,

Blessings to you all,
Boethius

p.s. I understand that the TAC Bishops will be meeting in Rome this summer. Might there be a special announcement at that time?
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I must admit that I haven’t heard about this and wasn’t able to confirm this.

As far as I understand, there would be only ONE reason for a “TAC Bishops meeting in Rome”, esp. if it were more than just a few.

It would definitely be time for Anglicans who are fed up with the C of E, ECUSA and the Anglican Communion (Archbishop of Canterbury) to make their decisions about where they want to go and how important their “Catholicism” is to them.

I’ll be looking for confirmation, and I’ll let you know as soon as I get some, maybe by buying a new “Swimsuit”! LOL

Blessings to you and your families. Please keep praying for us.

In Christ, Michael
 
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GKC:
Traditional Anglican,

“In your #143, you said ñApostolicae Curaeî (which was a Papal Encyclical and NOT a Papal Bull spoken Ex Cathedra…”

I’ve seen it referred to as an Apostolic Letter, and a Bull (Clark and Hughes refer to it as a Bull), but not as an Encyclical. But a Bull is not necessarily ex cathedra.

GKC
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GKC:

The terms “Apostolic Letter” and “Papal Encyclical” are pretty much interchangeable, and I’ve seen this particular document, as well as several others, referred to as both.

A “Bull” is by definition ex cathedra when the Pope is writing concerning matters of Faith and Morals. The Pope will use certain language to indicate that this is and has always been the teaching of the Universal Church when writing such an instrument.

CASTI CONNUBII
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI
ON CHRISTIAN MARRIAGE

5. And to begin with that same Encyclical, which is wholly concerned in vindicating the divine institution of matrimony, its sacramental dignity, and its perpetual stability, let it be repeated as an immutable and inviolable fundamental doctrine that matrimony was not instituted or restored by man but by God; not by man were the laws made to strengthen and confirm and elevate it but by God, the Author of nature, and by Christ Our Lord by Whom nature was redeemed, and hence these laws cannot be subject to any human decrees or to any contrary pact even of the spouses themselves. This is the doctrine of Holy Scripture;[2] this is the constant tradition of the Universal Church; this the solemn definition of the sacred Council of Trent, which declares and establishes from the words of Holy Writ itself that God is the Author of the perpetual stability of the marriage bond, its unity and its firmness.[3]
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii_en.html

APOSTOLIC LETTER
ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS
OF JOHN PAUL II

*4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.*

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

I think these are good examples of the situations and the type of language I’m referring to.

An aside for CrusaderNY, I referred to the Prophesies of Pope Paul VI in HumanaeVitae:

Pope Paul VI was prophetic…
tldm.org/news4/contraception.htm

BIRTH CONTROL
Negative Consequences of the Pill and Positive Benefits of Fertility Appreciation
sycophants.info/birthcontrol.html

There’s a section in the Torah dealing with Prophecy - It says that if a Prophet’s predictions made in the Name of God come to pass, and he’s not preaching manefest false doctrine, he’s from God…

Blessings to you and your families!

In Christ, Michael
 
Traditional Ang,

Well, I’ll certainly allow the RCC to declare that AC was ex cathedra. But in the dozen or so books I have relating to it, it is expressly treated as not being so. What say the RCs on the board?

GKC
 
Do you know St. Clement’s Church (ECUSA) in Philadelphia?
Click to expand...
This wasn’t asked of me, but I’ll answer. Yes, I know it quite well; my wife and I have been communicants since just after we were married in 1991.

To address a few things which various people have said:
  1. Notwithstanding what* Apostolicae Curae* said about the state of Anglican orders in 1896, we believe that we have valid sacraments. To date, neither the Holy See, nor the C.D.F. (or the Holy Inquisition prior to the 1960’s) has addressed the issues of the “Dutch Touch.” In fact, at least two Anglican clergymen have been ordained* sub conditione* by the RCC.
  2. The liturgy in use at S. Clement’s is the English Missal, issued by W. Knott and Sons in 1950. It is a faithful translation of the* Missale Romanum* of that date. The Canon of the Mass is that of the missal; the name of the local ECUSA bishop is mentioned after the Pope’s. The sacraments are administered according to the English Ritual, a translation of the* Rituale Romanum.* The Offices are recited from the Anglican Breviary, edited to conform to the* Breviarium Romanum.*
  3. S. Clement’s has not sought alternative jurisdiction from an Anglican bishop in Nigeria (most of whom would consider us profoundly idolatrous!) or from any other bishop.
  4. I am inclined to believe that if TAC does achieve uniate status, or something similar, there will be a number of Clementines who would avail themselves of such an opportunity. The state of Anglicanism is increasingly perilous, and will almost certainly get much worse in the coming months and years (and that is probably an understatement!)
Well, that’s all I can think of. Feel free to ask any questions that you like.

–Paul
 
40.png
pgoings:
This wasn’t asked of me, but I’ll answer. Yes, I know it quite well; my wife and I have been communicants since just after we were married in 1991.

To address a few things which various people have said:
  1. Notwithstanding what* Apostolicae Curae* said about the state of Anglican orders in 1896, we believe that we have valid sacraments. To date, neither the Holy See, nor the C.D.F. (or the Holy Inquisition prior to the 1960’s) has addressed the issues of the “Dutch Touch.” In fact, at least two Anglican clergymen have been ordained* sub conditione* by the RCC.
Click to expand...
In general, I quite agree with you about the validity of Anglican Orders and sacraments. The 2 former Anglican priests I know of, who were ordained RC priests sub conditione were Fr. Graham Leonard, one time Anglican Bishop of London, and Fr. John J. Hughes, the author (after he swam the Tiber) of those 2 books outlining the Anglican position on AC that I recommend so often. Do you know of others, by name?
  1. The liturgy in use at S. Clement’s is the English Missal, issued by W. Knott and Sons in 1950. It is a faithful translation of the* Missale Romanum* of that date. The Canon of the Mass is that of the missal; the name of the local ECUSA bishop is mentioned after the Pope’s. The sacraments are administered according to the English Ritual, a translation of the* Rituale Romanum.* The Offices are recited from the Anglican Breviary, edited to conform to the* Breviarium Romanum.*
  2. S. Clement’s has not sought alternative jurisdiction from an Anglican bishop in Nigeria (most of whom would consider us profoundly idolatrous!) or from any other bishop.
  3. I am inclined to believe that if TAC does achieve uniate status, or something similar, there will be a number of Clementines who would avail themselves of such an opportunity. The state of Anglicanism is increasingly perilous, and will almost certainly get much worse in the coming months and years (and that is probably an understatement!)
Well, that’s all I can think of. Feel free to ask any questions that you like.

–Paul
Click to expand...
And greetings, Paul

GKC

traditional Anglican
 
What say the RCs on the board?
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AC basically said that all things being equal, anglican ordination is invalid. but the church recognizes that the involvement, in some anglican episcopal ordinations, of bishops of the old catholic church of the Union of Utrecht who are validly ordained.

GKC, do you believe that all ministers in ECUSA have valid orders or just those who can trace a bishop to the old catholic church or someone who was validly ordained? it is my understanding that the church recognizes the possibility of valid orders in anglicanism from outside the anglican church.
 
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