Angry at irreverence during Mass

[OhMalley]

So tell me, Mary…would you say that your husband (or father or brother) should wear a tux? You can get them for $70…same as a suit.

I am editing to add that I would admit to changing my mind, so please don’t be so quick to judge. I have changed my mind a few times in debates…especially in other (non religious) forums.

I used to usher now and then at this parish. All the ushers were great guys and they dressed nicely enough for Mass – slacks, dress shirts, sweaters, etc. yet there were those who constantly derided us because we did not wear ties and coats.

For big feasts we started wearing morning dress – one of the ushers was a habadasher:

http://www.knize.at/popup/p_stil/images/p_3_4.jpg

Everybody loved it – EXCEPT those who were already making comments about our clothes…

 

[OhMalley]

This argument is really blowing my mind. We are actually arguing over whether we should dress decently to appear before our Lord and Saviour. You know, it is only in the Catholic church that people dress like they are going to work in their back yards. You see other people going to church, and they are dressed in the “Sunday best” (remember that phrase? I guess it doesn’t have any meaning to some of you). Yet we in the Catholic church are the only ones who actually have Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. The others are just meeting in buildings, but they dress better than we do.

I guess this question will be fully answered when we appear before the Lord after our death.

Mary

I’m not arguing that. I’m arguing who has the right and reponsibility to define what is “decent?” Certainly not secular society.

The “Sunday best” comes from a period where people dressed very simply/frugally during the week due to finances. Their Sunday best clothes (as defined by popular culture at that time) were often dresses/suits/coats/ties, etc. People still try to equate that model to the “Sunday best” definition today. Not only has the definition changed over time it’s also become largely irrelevant.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

This argument is really blowing my mind. We are actually arguing over whether we should dress decently to appear before our Lord and Saviour. **You know, it is only in the Catholic church that people dress like they are going to work in their back yards. ** You see other people going to church, and they are dressed in the “Sunday best” (remember that phrase? I guess it doesn’t have any meaning to some of you). Yet we in the Catholic church are the only ones who actually have Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. The others are just meeting in buildings, but they dress better than we do.

I guess this question will be fully answered when we appear before the Lord after our death.

Mary

Actually this is not at all true. In many of the ‘seeker-friendly’ protestant communities people are encouraged to come “as they are”. In most of the mainline protestant denominations these days you will see the shorts, sandals, etc that we see in the summer also. The Christian exceptions will be in the more traditional Southern Baptists type communities. In non-Christian communities, I have no idea how folks dress for services.

 

[Gertabelle]

Throughout all these discussions, I always wonder how the people dressed when they heard Christ speak? How did they dress when they met in homes for mass after Christ died ? Why do we, in this society, care so much? How superficial we have become!!

I just read this yesterday morning before mass. It is from the section “The Sacrament of the Eucharist.” No, the Vatican has not issued exactly what we should wear to mass, but we are told to dress with a certain attitude.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1387
To prepare for worthy reception of this sacrament, the faithful should observe the fast required in their Church.220 Bodily demeanor (gestures, clothing) ought to convey the respect, solemnity, and joy of this moment when Christ becomes our guest.

Look, I can’t judge anyone’s appearance or behavior at mass. As another poster said, I’m just glad they’re at mass. But those of us who are seeking perfection, as the rich young man in the gospel (Mark chapter 10?) did, may need a conversion of fashion to accompany our conversion of heart.

At the same time, we are commanded by Christ not to judge. I have to avoid attending mass at one parish near my home because the seniors treat the sanctuary before and after mass like the senior center visiting area. I had no choice but to go there this morning before work, and two things happened: 1) I realized that although my day is full of non-stop noise and activity, for a lot of these elderly folks, their days are lonely and sad; and 2) I got to offer up my petty distractions and inability to focus for the salvation of souls.

Yes, the Church tells us “to convey respect, solemnity, and joy” in our dress. But it is not now, and will never be my place to judge the heart of another.

OTOH, if one of my friends dresses or behaves inappropriately at mass, I will tease them mercilessly – 'cuz that’s what friends are for

Gertie

 

[sharmin]

I’m not arguing that. I’m arguing who has the right and reponsibility to define what is “decent?” Certainly not secular society.

The “Sunday best” comes from a period where people dressed very simply/frugally during the week due to finances. Their Sunday best clothes (as defined by popular culture at that time) were often dresses/suits/coats/ties, etc. People still try to equate that model to the “Sunday best” definition today. Not only has the definition changed over time it’s also become largely irrelevant.

I agree with this post. It sums up what I have been (inadequately) trying to say.

 

[sharmin]

I just read this yesterday morning before mass. It is from the section “The Sacrament of the Eucharist.” No, the Vatican has not issued exactly what we should wear to mass, but we are told to dress with a certain attitude.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Look, I can’t judge anyone’s appearance or behavior at mass. As another poster said, I’m just glad they’re at mass. But those of us who are seeking perfection, as the rich young man in the gospel (Mark chapter 10?) did, may need a conversion of fashion to accompany our conversion of heart.

At the same time, we are commanded by Christ not to judge. I have to avoid attending mass at one parish near my home because the seniors treat the sanctuary before and after mass like the senior center visiting area. I had no choice but to go there this morning before work, and two things happened: 1) I realized that although my day is full of non-stop noise and activity, for a lot of these elderly folks, their days are lonely and sad; and 2) I got to offer up my petty distractions and inability to focus for the salvation of souls.

Yes, the Church tells us “to convey respect, solemnity, and joy” in our dress. But it is not now, and will never be my place to judge the heart of another.

OTOH, if one of my friends dresses or behaves inappropriately at mass, I will tease them mercilessly – 'cuz that’s what friends are for

Gertie

Gertie, your post made me smile.

 

[pnewton]

Actually it has nothing to do with not being understanding. It has to do with planning ahead. On those weekends I work, I plan the Friday night and even wear a dress to work if I’m not going to have time to change (we usually wear jeans) I can speak for circumstances here where I live and the issue is not wanting to take time out from play, not out of necessity. I’m not saying there aren’t times that I get home and really don’t have times to put a dress on and have to go to Mass in jeans, I’m saying that on those occasions, and it isn’t every weekend, when someone is acting as EM, they should take the extra time necessary to dress appropriately and short shorts and halter tops on young women at Mass is never appropriate no matter what excuses are made.

It is good that you do. Not everyone can. I assure you that I do not have the option always of dressing up to go to work, even when I have to go straight to Mass and have to serve.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Yes, he does. What does God consider our best, though? DO you really think he has clothes in mind? Again, my best of what I have to offer is not my clothing.

Good – and yes clothing is an offering. In it we offer the best of what we have to present.

I give God my respect and my best. I never read anything in scripture that indicates that God wants us to dress a certain way for him.

Well, Jesus does exhort us to not be slovenly in Matthew 6. Certainly, if rags are the very best clothing you have then God won’t be snobbish that you are wearing rags to Church. But, wearing shorts and other casual clothing (it is called casual for a reason) when you possess better clothing (and yes, a suit is better clothing than jeans) is a sign of disrespect.

 

[sharmin]

Good – and yes clothing is an offering. In it we offer the best of what we have to present.

Well, Jesus does exhort us to not be slovenly in Matthew 6. Certainly, if rags are the very best clothing you have then God won’t be snobbish that you are wearing rags to Church. But, wearing shorts and other casual clothing (it is called casual for a reason) when you possess better clothing (and yes, a suit is better clothing than jeans) is a sign of disrespect.

Well, I agree with you that people shouldn’t go to church in smelly, unkept clothes, but that is simply for hygenic reasons. You say jeans are better than shorts, but a suit is better than jeans. By that reasoning, since we offer the best to God, shouldn’t men always wear tuxedos??

 

[brigid12]

This would bother me quite a bit, too. However since what is being taught in RCIA, Rel. Ed, etc. is that the Eucharist is simply a community meal - well, why not.

 

[JReducation]

You know . . . sometimes we can beat a horse to death. And if we don’t let it die and burry it, it can begin to smell very badly. This is the case with dress code for mass.

Now, . . . don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that there should not be a dress code for mass. But the point is bigger than that. Sometimes we’re very narrow minded in our discussions on these threads. I tend to think that Catholics often suffer from microscopic vision.

If you notice, . . . and I ask you to really stop and think before you throw tomatoes at me. If you notice kids don’t know how to dress for school. How many kids go to school with pants around their bum with their boxers exposed. And look at the girls who go to school with their neckline and hemline about to meet.

Walk into a supermarket and you’re going to find someone with a t-shirt with a message on it, one that can’t be repeated in polite company, but it is on some yoyo’s t-shirt. And it’s worse when the yoyo is 50 years old. I can almost see how a teenager would think that a finger giving others the birdie is funny. But an adult is not a teenager, at least not chronologically.

I was in the hospital for a few weeks and I noticed that the nurses in the were wearing white. I was surprised. It had been a long time since I had seen nurses in white. I had gotten used to them in scrubs and sneakers and colored tops. When I was feeling better I asked the nurse who was taking care of me about the white. She rolled her eyes, as if to say that she was upset or frustrated and told me that the hospital had passed a dress code for nurses and doctors.

Then I remembered that the school that we run has a uniform and that we run after the boys all day long to pull up their pants, wear belt, tuck in their shirts, take off the ear rings, and wear the right shoes. The most difficult task that we have is impressing upon parents that kids don’t need cell phones and iPods in school.

The point I’m making is that we are looking through a microscope. The problem is not the mass or the parish. The problem is America. Americans are losing our good manners. We’re rude. We dress inappropriately, we speak inappropriately, we walk into public places speaking loudly on the cell phone, we hold a conversation while listening to an iPod.

C’mon, give me a break. Let’s call a spade a spade. America is becoming one of the most rude societies in the world. Where is the beginning of the problem . . . in the home.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[sharmin]

You know . . . sometimes we can beat a horse to death. And if we don’t let it die and burry it, it can begin to smell very badly. This is the case with dress code for mass…The point I’m making is that we are looking through a microscope. The problem is not the mass or the parish. The problem is America. Americans are losing our good manners. We’re rude. We dress inappropriately, we speak inappropriately, we walk into public places speaking loudly on the cell phone, we hold a conversation while listening to an iPod.

I agree with this post!

 

[OhMalley]

This would bother me quite a bit, too. However since what is being taught in RCIA, Rel. Ed, etc. is that the Eucharist is simply a community meal - well, why not.

Maybe in your arch(diocese) – but certainly not in mine.

 

[mullenpm]

I must agree with the posters who are upset (I am outraged) at the attire of some people coming to Mass. My church is historic so during the summer we have many tourists who attend Mass and the clothing styles are awful; short shorts, low cut blouses, men in t-shirts with all kinds of messages emblasoned thereon, etc.

One of the female cantors even wears blouses with no sleeves and she waves her arms around while leading the congregation in responses. The sight of the low neckline and bare arms waving around near the altar is really offensive to me.

I have changed the time I attend Mass; instead of the very crowded 10:45 a.m. Mass on Sunday morning I now attend the 4:00 p.m. Sunday evening Mass. I arrive at 3:00 p.m. and have that whole hour to pray my Rosary, have silent time with Our Lord in the Tabernacle, and I even carry my pocket-sized NT and read that. It is wonderful. The Church is almost silent; and there are a number of other people who also come early.

I sit in the second pew on the right so I may receive Holy Communion from the Priest. Every week two men sit in the first pew - one elderly and one young (a friend of the elderly man). This past Sunday the elderly man showed up late, in fact, just as the Epistle was being read. He immediately started to talk to the young man next to him. The Priest was glaring down at them so I leaned forward and gently flicked each one on the shoulder, one with my right hand the other with my left hand, at exactly the same time. It just happened, I don’t know why I did it (I think the angels made me do it).:yup:

Neither knew I had flicked the other one and both sat up straight and immediately fell silent.

Neither of them said anything to me about it after Mass because, I imagine, each of them thought I had flicked only him. I walked out with both of them as friendly as ever.

 

[mullenpm]

I must agree with JReducation’s post; as usual he makes perfect sense.

brigid12, where are you located (PNW); I cannot believe that the
RICA classes in your area (or any area, in fact) teach that the Eucharist is “simply a community meal”. Do you know that for a fact?

 

[dieselsubvet]

In reply to the post on “angry at irreverence during Mass”, my only change in the heading would be to the word “angry”. I will say “disgusted” at the irreverence during Mass. First, I have to give you all a brief personal background on myself . I was an altarboy in the early 1950’s at Latin Mass. My wife and I were both educated beginning in the late 1940’s at Catholic schools. With regard to the subject being discussed, I have told my wife on numerous occasions after Mass, that “we are from another planet.” This is not much of an exaggeration. The shocking lack of modesty in dress at Mass is only one example of the lack of reverence with many modern Catholics who present themselves before the Blessed Sacrament. As a possible parallel analogy, I would say that everyone in our American society is being affected to a greater or lesser degree by the secularism that has invaded our country. Again, I can look back over half a century ago, and see how our society has turned away from God to a worship of materialism and pleasure, and say that I feel I’m from another planet.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Well, I agree with you that people shouldn’t go to church in smelly, unkept clothes, but that is simply for hygenic reasons. You say jeans are better than shorts, but a suit is better than jeans. By that reasoning, since we offer the best to God, shouldn’t men always wear tuxedos??

Not many men own tuxedos. Also, tuxedos have the connotation today of only being worn for weddings – it has become a single purpose garment, just like the wedding dress.

C’mon, are you really so ignorant and and lacking in common sense that you can’t tell the difference between casual, profane clothing that is fine for a ballgame and clothing which specific purpose is to present ourselves respectfully and formally.

 

[MercyMia]

A few months back, I was in a pew behind a 3 very chatty teenage girls. They were all wearing shorts that were way too short and pressing buttons on their cells phones when they weren’t giggling. More than being angry, my heart wept for them. They were in the confirmation class, so they maybe were 15, 16? I think they were there as part of a requirement for Confirmation. I am only 25, so I can remember being that age and I will admit, the mass was not at the top of my list of awe-inspiring things. But now, at 25…well I barely make it through the concecration with dry eyes
I prayed so hard for those girls. I prayed for God to let them “get it” someday. I prayed for them to realize the treasure they have been given before they go off to college or onto a career and become too influenced by the world without the lifeline of the mass. They giggled during the concecration. I thought of all the people going through RCIA who burn with anticipation of getting to partake in the Eucharist. I prayed and prayed and I haven’t seen them in church again (we have a big church and I don’t always sit in the same spot) but I think of them and I hope more than anything for them that they “get it” someday, that God just plants himself in their hearts and they get all of it.
Well, during the concecration as they giggled, this old guy with a cane walks up the isle to them and scream “You outta be ashamed of yourselves.” I agreed with him, yes, but I was shaking at the sound of his voice. The girls looked mad. They went up for communion anyways. But as he said the words to them “You outta be ashamed of yourselves” - something echoed back into my head “You outta be ashamed at yourselves” meaning this gentleman and I. Why? Because maybe we aren’t doing all we can. Maybe nobody has ever really sat them down and explained whats going on to them (I mean, I didn’t get much out of CCD myself, I learned it all afterwords thanks to great apologetics). Maybe I should have tapped those girls on the shoulder and told them about the concecration. Maybe after the incident I should have taken them aside and asked for their email addresses so I could sent them some great essays.

 

[sharmin]

C’mon, are you really so ignorant and and lacking in common sense that you can’t tell the difference between casual, profane clothing that is fine for a ballgame and clothing which specific purpose is to present ourselves respectfully and formally.

I was enjoying a nice debate with people in a respectful manner. Insinuating (and I am using that word to be charitable) that I am ignorant and lack common sense is rude and insulting. I expect much more when debating with Christians. I am bowing out of this thread. Don’t bother to apologize…I won’t be returning to this thread. Incredible. I’d rather see teenagers with shorts on in church who are there to hear God’s word than to see you in your suit, name calling in your spare time.

 

[JMJ_coder]

I was enjoying a nice debate with people in a respectful manner. Insinuating (and I am using that word to be charitable) that I am ignorant and lack common sense is rude and insulting. I expect much more when debating with Christians. I am bowing out of this thread. Don’t bother to apologize…I won’t be returning to this thread. Incredible. I’d rather see teenagers with shorts on in church who are there to hear God’s word than to see you in your suit, name calling in your spare time.

Nothing to apologize for – I meant every word.