Angry at irreverence during Mass

[benedictgal]

I was going to say, “only their actions, (selfishness, disorder and cliqueishness) not their dress.” Then I remembered that he did actually give some instruction as to head-coverings. So there is precident for the Church enforcing some rules of dress should the Holy Father ever deem such a thing is needed.

True. Even the four Papal Basilicas have a dress code.

Incidentally, Jesus certainly had a low tolerance (or, rather, no tolerance) for irreverence in his Father’s house. Look at what he did in the Temple. He took out the whips and cords and threw out those who were profaning the Court of the Gentiles, which was an area of prayer in the Temple for the prolestytes.

 

[JReducation]

True. Even the four Papal Basilicas have a dress code.

Incidentally, Jesus certainly had a low tolerance (or, rather, no tolerance) for irreverence in his Father’s house. Look at what he did in the Temple. He took out the whips and cords and threw out those who were profaning the Court of the Gentiles, which was an area of prayer in the Temple for the prolestytes.

They were not only profaning the temple, but they were also cheating the poor.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[pnewton]

I don’t think that we need the pope to teach us common sense. Even if he did, those without common sense would still not follow the rules.

Good point. Even the one line in the Catechism is enough to instruct anyone with a lick of sense, modesty and propriety. Those that lack any and all of the above would still not comply. I remember the last time I had to wear shorts, I slid in where no one was and felt like crawling under the pew. As soon as we were done, I apologized to the priest and headed over to a hotel to check in.

 

[benedictgal]

They were not only profaning the temple, but they were also cheating the poor.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

True, but, His primary concern was that they were profaning His Father’s house. Remember, while taking care of the poor is highly important and laudable, the first commandment is to love God. Loving Him means offering Him the worship that is due to Him. If we fail at that, we can love and care for the poor all we want, but, it has no basis without loving God first. Recall, too, that Jesus made the same argument when Judas was complaining that the oil that Mary bought could have been used for the poor.

Furthermore, as one of my priest friends noted in his homily, God spent significant amounts of time dictatng to Moses just how He should be worshipped. Yes, Jesus spoke about loving one’s neighbor, but, God needs to come first in the equation. When we are irreverent at Mass and treat the Holy Sacrifice as our own personal property, then, we have pretty much missed the boat.

 

[JReducation]

True, but, His primary concern was that they were profaning His Father’s house. Remember, while taking care of the poor is highly important and laudable, the first commandment is to love God. Loving Him means offering Him the worship that is due to Him. If we fail at that, we can love and care for the poor all we want, but, it has no basis without loving God first. Recall, too, that Jesus made the same argument when Judas was complaining that the oil that Mary bought could have been used for the poor.

Furthermore, as one of my priest friends noted in his homily, God spent significant amounts of time dictatng to Moses just how He should be worshipped. Yes, Jesus spoke about loving one’s neighbor, but, God needs to come first in the equation. When we are irreverent at Mass and treat the Holy Sacrifice as our own personal property, then, we have pretty much missed the boat.

I was not denying this. I was adding to the fact that they were breaking the two great commandments. There is a tendency in some traditional circles to forget the second great commandment and to make the liturgy and the worship of God as the only commandment that would cocern God, which is not the case.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[mullenpm]

Today while reading a magazine I saw an advertisement for “Tea” at a upscale hotel in Canada. The ad said proper attire was expected - no short shorts, no t-shirts, etc.

Now, why cannot a parish church put a sign at the front door saying the same thing. During Holy Hour they put a sign in the center aisle at my church asking for respect to be shown to the exposed Blessed Sacrament.

Why don’t local Priests preach from the pulpit about modesty in dress. As JR has said this is not being taught in the home anymore so the Church should step forward. I am talking about “modesty”, not “finery.”

 

[benedictgal]

I was not denying this. I was adding to the fact that they were breaking the two great commandments. There is a tendency in some traditional circles to forget the second great commandment and to make the liturgy and the worship of God as the only commandment that would cocern God, which is not the case.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

However, there is also a bad tendency among the more liberal circles to forget about the first commandment and concentrate solely on the second. That is called being horizontal., where we make ouselves the focus of everything.

Incidentally, not following the first Commandment would make all of the rest rather pointless. Remember, the Church’s life flows from the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, which is her source and summit. Get the Mass wrong and everything else is for naught. Furthermore, if you examine the OT, God spent sgnificant chunks of time dictating to Moses just how He should be worshipped, as I noted in a previous post. Thus, the notion of proper worship is very important to God, or else he would not have spent lots of time on the subject.

I understand what you are saying, but, at the same time, proper worship should not be downplayed. I also realize that you are not denying that. However, first things first. Without the Mass as a solid foundation, everything else crumbles. And, we should not be critical of folks who advocate for Tradition. I have been to liberal parishes where they may have a great St. Vincent De Paul society, but, there is a lot of irreverence at their liturgies. Some examples include completely disregarding the norms regarding the distribution of Holy Communion, adlibbing the prayers of the Mass and other strange things. Somehow, these two aspects are incompatible.

 

[JReducation]

However, there is also a bad tendency among the more liberal circles to forget about the first commandment and concentrate solely on the second. That is called being horizontal., where we make ouselves the focus of everything.

Incidentally, not following the first Commandment would make all of the rest rather pointless. Remember, the Church’s life flows from the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, which is her source and summit. Get the Mass wrong and everything else is for naught. Furthermore, if you examine the OT, God spent sgnificant chunks of time dictating to Moses just how He should be worshipped, as I noted in a previous post. Thus, the notion of proper worship is very important to God, or else he would not have spent lots of time on the subject.

I understand what you are saying, but, at the same time, proper worship should not be downplayed. I also realize that you are not denying that. However, first things first. Without the Mass as a solid foundation, everything else crumbles. And, we should not be critical of folks who advocate for Tradition. I have been to liberal parishes where they may have a great St. Vincent De Paul society, but, there is a lot of irreverence at their liturgies. Some examples include completely disregarding the norms regarding the distribution of Holy Communion, adlibbing the prayers of the Mass and other strange things. Somehow, these two aspects are incompatible.

Fortunately, you and others who folllow my posts know that I’m not given to the extremes.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[pnewton]

Why don’t local Priests preach from the pulpit about modesty in dress. As JR has said this is not being taught in the home anymore so the Church should step forward. I am talking about “modesty”, not “finery.”

A side story: My FIL is s fairly new deacon. He did speak about modesty in dress and teh need to give honor to God. He was unjustly accused of being judgemental. The appeasement-minded priest failed to back him up, chewed him out and now requires his homilies to be previewed. Of course most of the parish loved the homily, but the priest said the next complaint he got from a homily and the deacon will not be allowed ot preach any more.

Please pray for him and this situation.

 

[mullenpm]

pnewton, I will certainly add your FIL to my prayer list.

I cannot understand a Priest who would not allow a Deacon to preach on modesty in attire.

 

[JReducation]

pnewton, I will certainly add your FIL to my prayer list.

I cannot understand a Priest who would not allow a Deacon to preach on modesty in attire.

This is a touchy area, because deacons have the right to preach, but they are subject to the authority of the local pastor. Whereas a priest’s right to preach us subject to the authority of either his religious superior or the local bishop. The local pastor would have to appeal to the higher authority to stop a priest from preaching, if that priest is assigned to his parish. In some dioceses the preaching role of the deacon is not clearly defined. I’m not speaking about his right to preach vis a vis his ordination, I’m speaking about faculties to preach. The rules in some dioceses seem to be ambiguous.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[CWBetts]

Not to n(name removed by moderator)ick Benedictgal, but there iare no “lIberals” or “COnervatives” in CAtholicism. Those are political designations. There is only “orthodox” or “heterodox”

 

[George_C]

I was heartened to see that at my new parish, the Tabernacle is prominently located behind the altar — not in some other room.

 

[Brooklyn]

I am so glad to see that common sense and reverance have prevailed on this thread. I just don’t understand how anyone can try to justify dressing down when coming to Mass in the presence of our Lord and, as pointed out in previous posts, when heaven and earth are intersecting.

 

[mullenpm]

Thank you JR for the explanation about preaching Deacons. I suppose everyone must abide by the rules of superiors; still, it seems a shame to throw cold water on a new Deacon just trying to get a message across.:sad_yes:

Perhaps after awhile the new Deacon and the appeasement-minded Priest will meet at some common ground of respect.

 

[simple_soul]

I am so glad to see that common sense and reverance have prevailed on this thread. I just don’t understand how anyone can try to justify dressing down when coming to Mass in the presence of our Lord and, as pointed out in previous posts, when heaven and earth are intersecting.

I do not think anyone was trying to “justify” dressing down. I think they are just trying to point out that not everyones “idea” of dressing up is the same. I know alot of kids who paid alot of money for those desiner jeans and to them they are wearing thier best for God. I also know them to be the most compasionate, charitable and loving souls I have ever met. Just try getting to know them instead of condemning them all the time on these forums.

 

[pnewton]

Perhaps after awhile the new Deacon and the appeasement-minded Priest will meet at some common ground of respect.

That would be my hope. I suggested that he look at the review as a good way to have the priest buy into the homily. It would be hard to be disciplined for a homily that he approved.

 

[BarbaraS]

I’m glad to see my question brought up again! Still think when attending Mass one should were there best. Even if in culture nobody wear a dress to &or shirt.Somebody must there are plenty @ Goodwill.

 

[ac_claire]

Sometimes I wonder if this is payback or something for when I was irreverent during Mass once 35 years ago…

anyway, at the vigil Saturday evening Mass tonight a teen girl was wearing short-shorts, her father was dressed in shorts and served as a Eucharistic minister, and this family - the mother was wearing a camp-shirt and capris - whispered between each other in the 2 pews in front of me, and I couldn’t help but hear the conversation because they were right in front of me…

I just mentioned this in another thread…But I sat a row behind two guys once who were laughing and engaged in a loud-ish, informal conversation while they were kneeling side by side during the consecration! I was so unnerved that I did speak up, I leaned forward and asked them to please be quiet. (I’m not normally the type to come out and say things like this to strangers. ). They immediately stopped talking and looked down, obviously embarassed. Which was, I guess, much better than if they hadn’t been embarassed at all. You could tell that they just had momentarily forgot themselves. I suspect of lot of the offenders we post about here are like that. They know what they should be doing, they just let their guard down and forgot where they were for a few minutes.

Somtimes it is better to speak up, IMO. Depends on the situation.

 

[JReducation]

I just mentioned this in another thread…But I sat a row behind two guys once who were laughing and engaged in a loud-ish, informal conversation while they were kneeling side by side during the consecration! I was so unnerved that I did speak up, I leaned forward and asked them to please be quiet. (I’m not normally the type to come out and say things like this to strangers. ). They immediately stopped talking and looked down, obviously embarassed. Which was, I guess, much better than if they hadn’t been embarassed at all. You could tell that they just had momentarily forgot themselves. I suspect of lot of the offenders we post about here are like that. They know what they should be doing, they just let their guard down and forgot where they were for a few minutes.

Somtimes it is better to speak up, IMO. Depends on the situation.

I believe that you’re right. I think that many people who go to church and act as you describe are just being thoughtless, not outrageous sinners.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF