Animals / Hunting / Michael Vick

[vern_humphrey]

My friends have both woods and carrots ( a whole garden of veggies, actually), and they are now missing much of their garden due to the deer eating it! He can’t wait for hunting season, as he says he will be eating his garden veggies; however, they will be in the form of venison!!

I eat a lot of my garden in the form of venison and rabbit meat. But large scale agriculture usually means doom to woodland species.

 

[Image_of_God]

I don’t think so…God pretty much gave us dominion over the creatures. He gave us canine teeth and he created our digestive system to handle meat and in fact requires the protein that is found complete in meat.

Jesus himself ate meat at passover.

Last I checked there is no commandment prohibiting us from eating meat!

Of course not. There was no such thing as mosaic law back then.

It was not until after the Flood that God permitted the eating of meat.

Genesis 1:29
“God also said: ‘See, I give you every seed-bearing plant all over the earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit on it to be you food’”

There is no mention of meat.
Now, I’m no vegetarian, but Genesis says that it was not God’s original intention to eat meat.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Of course not. There was no such thing as mosaic law back then.

It was not until after the Flood that God permitted the eating of meat.

Genesis 1:29
“God also said: ‘See, I give you every seed-bearing plant all over the earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit on it to be you food’”

There is no mention of meat.
Now, I’m no vegetarian, but Genesis says that it was not God’s original intention to eat meat.

1 The man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have produced a man with the help of the LORD.”
2 Next she bore his brother Abel. Abel became a keeper of flocks, and Cain a tiller of the soil.

(Genesis, 4, 1-2)

“A keeper of flocks” – that is a herdsman, who kept animals for food, wool and leather.

 

[Image_of_God]

(Genesis, 4, 1-2)

“A keeper of flocks” – that is a herdsman, who kept animals for food, wool and leather.

Genesis 9:3
Every creature that is alive shall be yours to eat; I give them all to you as I did the green plants.

Not to be bickerer, but God did not give humans any meat to eat until after the flood.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Genesis 9:3
Every creature that is alive shall be yours to eat; I give them all to you as I did the green plants.

Not to be bickerer, but God did not give humans any meat to eat until after the flood.

Yet Abel was a keeper of flocks before that.

I don’t think your interepretation, while ingenious, is accurate. Certainly, I have seen no official Catholic interpretation that agrees with it. Look at the footnote to Genesis 1-26 in the New American Bible:

4 [26] Man is here presented as the climax of God’s creative activity; he resembles God primarily because of the dominion God gives him over the rest of creation.

(My emphasis)

Now, Genesis 9 deals with the earth after the flood:
1
God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them: "Be fertile and multiply and fill the earth.
2
Dread fear of you shall come upon all the animals of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon all the creatures that move about on the ground and all the fishes of the sea; into your power they are delivered.

3 1 Every creature that is alive shall be yours to eat; I give them all to you as I did the green plants.
4 2 Only flesh with its lifeblood still in it you shall not eat.
5 For your own lifeblood, too, I will demand an accounting: from every animal I will demand it, and from man in regard to his fellow man I will demand an accounting for human life.
6 If anyone sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; For in the image of God has man been made.
7 Be fertile, then, and multiply; abound on earth and subdue it."

Footnote 1 indeed says,

1 [3] Antediluvian creatures, including man, are depicted as vegetarians (Genesis 1:29-30), becoming carnivorous only after the flood.

But this is not Catholic doctrine – clearly there were carnivores before Man. Indeed, there were carnivores before mammals.

 

[Image_of_God]

Yet Abel was a keeper of flocks before that.

I don’t think your interepretation, while ingenious, is accurate. Certainly, I have seen no official Catholic interpretation that agrees with it. Look at the footnote to Genesis 1-26 in the New American Bible:

(My emphasis)

Now, Genesis 9 deals with the earth after the flood:
1
God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them: "Be fertile and multiply and fill the earth.
2
Dread fear of you shall come upon all the animals of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon all the creatures that move about on the ground and all the fishes of the sea; into your power they are delivered.

Footnote 1 indeed says,

But this is not Catholic doctrine – clearly there were carnivores before Man. Indeed, there were carnivores before mammals.

Genesis should not be taken as literal fact, I understand from you now. But, it does show that God did not intend for violence in any form. Though Abel was a keeper of flocks, it doesn’t necessarily mean that Scripture says he ate the sheep.

My point in quoting Genesis 9:3 is to show that it says God gave green plants to humans for food before he gave them meat. If you notice carefully, “give” is in present tense while “did” is past tense. That means that God is in the process of giving humans meat to eat, just as he already did with the green plants.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Why should your logic not apply to plants as well. Should we only eat plants if we need to. How about if we are strolling along as see some wild carrots. Are we only morally allowed to eat a carrot if we are in need. Why would it not be ok to have a carrot as a snack.

If it’s ok to snack on a carrot, why not venison jerky?

Hmmm. Does the broccoli scream when I bite it? Another way to think about your train of thought. What makes a vegetable any less sentient than an animal?

We all know our Lord had no issue with us consuming fishes.

Anyone here speak broccoli?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Genesis should not be taken as literal fact, I understand from you now. But, it does show that God did not intend for violence in any form. Though Abel was a keeper of flocks, it doesn’t necessarily mean that Scripture says he ate the sheep.

It has been my experience that shepards don’t keep sheep for pets.

My point in quoting Genesis 9:3 is to show that it says God gave green plants to humans for food before he gave them meat. If you notice carefully, “give” is in present tense while “did” is past tense. That means that God is in the process of giving humans meat to eat, just as he already did with the green plants.

It’s still not a tenable interpretation – any more than the creation of all the universe in six literal days is tenable. Animals ate meat long before the first man appeared, and men ate meat from the beginning – when they could get it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Hmmm. Does the broccoli scream when I bite it? Another way to think about your train of thought. What makes a vegetable any less sentient than an animal?

We all know our Lord had no issue with us consuming fishes.

Anyone here speak broccoli?

Vegetables do scream – ask my daughter. She was on TV with her class in an experiment where an oscilloscope was hooked to plants showing how they react to stimulii. The high point of the show came after the plant was “exhausted” and no longer reacted. My daughter let out a shriek that caused a reaction that pegged the needle.

 

[rlg94086]

Hmmm. Does the broccoli scream when I bite it? Another way to think about your train of thought. What makes a vegetable any less sentient than an animal?

We all know our Lord had no issue with us consuming fishes.

Anyone here speak broccoli?

No…but, I’ve been green with envy. (Buh-dum-bump…I’ll be here all week folks. )

It reminds me of a character in the Hugh Grant/Julia Roberts movie Notting Hill.

She was a fruitarian - only eating fruit or vegetables which had naturally fallen from their plant (and were therefore dead already).

“These carrots?”

“Murdered.”



Me? I prefer the shirt I saw at our local city’s fair:

“Meat is Murder!
…tasty, tasty murder”

 

[Image_of_God]

It has been my experience that shepards don’t keep sheep for pets.

It’s still not a tenable interpretation – any more than the creation of all the universe in six literal days is tenable. Animals ate meat long before the first man appeared, and men ate meat from the beginning – when they could get it.

I am not saying it is literal, but I am saying that though it is in a poetic sense, it still in a poetic sense coveys vegetarians. It is through this passage that we see God’s condemnation of violence so much that in the poem he does not permit the eating of animals.

 

[iamrefreshed]

No…but, I’ve been green with envy. (Buh-dum-bump…I’ll be here all week folks. )

It reminds me of a character in the Hugh Grant/Julia Roberts movie Notting Hill.

She was a fruitarian - only eating fruit or vegetables which had naturally fallen from their plant (and were therefore dead already).

“These carrots?”

“Murdered.”



Me? I prefer the shirt I saw at our local city’s fair:

“Meat is Murder!
…tasty, tasty murder”

I like vegetables…Tomato on my burger!

Honestly. I think we are masters of all the earth. I don’t think that give us a right to abuse it though.

 

[vern_humphrey]

No…but, I’ve been green with envy. (Buh-dum-bump…I’ll be here all week folks. )

It reminds me of a character in the Hugh Grant/Julia Roberts movie Notting Hill.

She was a fruitarian - only eating fruit or vegetables which had naturally fallen from their plant (and were therefore dead already).

“These carrots?”

“Murdered.”



Me? I prefer the shirt I saw at our local city’s fair:

“Meat is Murder!
…tasty, tasty murder”

And to those who would have us subsist on tofu, I ask, do you know where it comes from?

(Hint: Why do you think they call it Toe Foo?)

 

[melensdad]

1. I know that God gave us dominion over animals when he created them, but it is also our duty to care for them.

• Does caring for them include preventing them from overpopulating areas and allowing them to starve because they over-grazed?
• Does caring for them include preventing some species from destroying the habitat of other animal species?
• Does caring for animals include preventing an over populated species from destroying rare native plants that are “protected” class plants?
• Does caring for them include preventing them from threatening human children and family pets?
  Seems to me there are dozens of other questions to ask you. But I am a former city/suburban dweller who moved to a rural area a dozen+ years ago. The situation is different out here in the country.

In my back yard a pack of coyotes chased down a deer and killed it. Yup, we have a coyote problem out here, population is getting pretty thick and they are moving up to the suburbs and going into people’s yards and attacking their pets and while none has yet to bite a child, several children have been cornered.

Oh, and the deer. Those beautiful creatures that we all call Bambi. Well they have eaten and destroyed 2 orchards that I planted. Literally eaten the trees and killed them. Killed EVERY tree in both orchards, and every blueberry bush too. They are also over populated and get killed by cars almost at a rate of 1 per day in my part of the county.

Then there are the rabid raccoons. Like the one that would not get off my back porch last year.

Here in Indiana, not too far from Chicago, the Dept of Natural Resources has actually opened up the state parks along the southern edge of Lake Michigan and ASKED people to come in and shoot the deer because they are so over populated that they are killing the habitat of some species of squirrel and causing the squirrels to die. The deer are also eating the native wildflowers that are on the endangered species list.

So I’ve just listed a few problems and a few situations. But if we have dominion over the animals then we need to care for ALL of the species not just the “cute and cuddly” animals that Disney makes movies about.

To be blunt, we should reintroduce wolves, bobcats and black bear into the areas and then let the native species kill and control each other. There would be fewer deer, but more squirrels and native plants. The bobcats would take care of the overpopulated raccoons. The wolves & bear would control a lot of species, from little rodents to deer. They would also compete for food with coyotes and thus control that population too.

Me,** I do NOT hunt,** have no desire to do it. But I sure am not willing to claim that people shouldn’t do it. In fact I wish more people would hunt. Man has screwed up the eco-system pretty badly and we are not as efficient as the creatures that God put here. But man destroyed those creatures and wiped them out of many area. So what are we to do?

If we are to care for the animals then we darn well better look at a BALANCED approach for all animals. If you are not willing to live with coyotes, wolves, bobcats, puma, snakes, bears and other things then you better take a very hard look at the reality of nature.

 

[Image_of_God]

Sorry for the argument vern, I am just hoping that if there is an error in my thinking which I have only seen slightly, it might be corrected.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Sorry for the argument vern, I am just hoping that if there is an error in my thinking which I have only seen slightly, it might be corrected.

No problem. No harn, no foul.

But what do you think of this.

1 In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,
2 the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
4 God saw how good the light was. God then separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” Thus evening came, and morning followed–the first day.
6 Then God said, “Let there be a dome in the middle of the waters, to separate one body of water from the other.” And so it happened:
7 God made the dome, and it separated the water above the dome from the water below it.
8 God called the dome “the sky.” Evening came, and morning followed–the second day.
9 Then God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered into a single basin, so that the dry land may appear.” And so it happened: the water under the sky was gathered into its basin, and the dry land appeared.
10 God called the dry land “the earth,” and the basin of the water he called “the sea.” God saw how good it was.
11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation: every kind of plant that bears seed and every kind of fruit tree on earth that bears fruit with its seed in it.” And so it happened:
12 the earth brought forth every kind of plant that bears seed and every kind of fruit tree on earth that bears fruit with its seed in it. God saw how good it was.
13 Evening came, and morning followed–the third day.
14 Then God said: “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky, to separate day from night. Let them mark the fixed times, the days and the years,
15 and serve as luminaries in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the earth.” And so it happened:
16 God made the two great lights, the greater one to govern the day, and the lesser one to govern the night; and he made the stars.

In verse 2, the earth is there. In verse 3, there is light (from where?) By verse 4 we have day and night. By verse 12, the Earth is pretty much finished – but the sun and moon aren’t created until verses 14-16!!

 

[PeteZaHut]

Of course animals feel pain. They have nervous systems just like us, but do they experience the pain in the same way of suffering that we do? Both humans and animals have brains, but animals are unable to use their brains to rationalize.

We were destined to experience pain and suffering as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve. Would got make animals receive that punishment also for our sin?

As for the hunting, I think people who participate should ask themselves whether they are hunting for enjoyment or the food.

Jesus had to eat meat because people of that time and in the part of the earth would not have survived without meat. My notion is whether or not, in a wealthy country, people have an obligation to reduce consumption of meat as port of our obligation to care for God’s creatures, as long as they can still stay healthy. Obviously, using meat to feed the poor is a wonderful thing, and some hunting is needed to prevent overpopulation.

Lastly, most of you responded that we have the right to eat animals. That would be for our own pleasure and convenience, since it is possible to survive without eating meat. However, many many responded negatively to hunting animals purely for enjoyment. What is the different in eating for pleasure and hunting for pleasure? We eat food to survive. We eat a variety of to stay healthy, but also for our own enjoyment and pleasure. How is that pleasure different from the pleasure received from those who hunt as a sport?

 

[rlg94086]

No problem. No harn, no foul.

No ham? No fowl? Dang it Vern, now you’re messin’ with my head!

 

[britfun67]

Vegetarianism is not part of Christianity – after all, Jesus did not command it and the Apostles did not practice it. Meat, in fact, was part of the Passover meal, so Christ and the Apostles did eat meat.

There is nothing wrong with harvesting the good things that God sends us – I pick muscadines, for example, and make wine. I pick berries and gather nuts. And I harvest deer, squirrels, and other wild meats. Why should I not do it?

But the bible does say that you should not look down on those who chose NOT to eat meat. Plus in the 10 comandments it states though shalt not kill! To me that means anything that is of flesh and blood

 

[vern_humphrey]

But the bible does say that you should not look down on those who chose NOT to eat meat.

I’m not looking down on anybody.

(And I would appreciate it if they would not look down on me.)

Plus in the 10 comandments it states though shalt not kill! To me that means anything that is of flesh and blood

The Hebrew wphrase used is actually best translated as “Thou shalt not murder.”

Murder, then as now, was defined as the unlawful killing of a human being.

In fact, if you read farther, you can see where God commanded the Israelites to kill their human enemies, as well as animals.