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4elise
Guest
I didn’t see any connection to PETA with the video?
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4elise
Guest
This is so beautifully expressed - I am always confused when people seem to think that God gave us hearts and minds that are limited and that we can only care for the unborn - I for one - and I know many, many more, who care deeply and pray and act to bring an end to abortion and for moral and spiritual reasons don’t eat meat. Some may not have seen this type of treatment of animals and therefore don’t believe it happens - this seems a narrow response - if you can access meat that has been treated well, good for you - most people are only able to purchase meat from factory farms. Thank you Marfran for posting this!
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4elise
Guest
I will certainly pray for her.
Just FYI - a vegan diet can be healthy or not healthy, (in fact there are many overweight vegans!). Is it possible that the poor girl has an eating disorder?
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4elise
Guest
A vegetarian expectant mother has the responsibility to their unborn child to ensure they are getting enough protein and vitamins - and it is easily done.
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Marfran
Guest
I have no idea how you made the connection with the original post (agribusiness practices that cause suffering to livestock), to a disregard and disrespect to your fellow posters. If you have something to contribute, that is contrary, you can still present your views in a respectful way. We are all members of God’s house. My reference to the blessing of animals–is to illustrate how your comments were inappropriate to the discussion.
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Marfran
Guest
Wild chimpanzees eat roughly 60 per cent fruit and 35 per cent leaves, and 5 per cent miscellaneous (including a small amount of termites). There have been numerous studies on the chimpanzee diet–that have sprung up out of Jane Goodall’s research. JG was probably the first to observe wild chimpanzees killing, in particular, colobus monkeys. At the time that she brought this to the attention of the scientific community–her observations were doubted. Subsequent studies have verified that some communities of chimpanzees do in fact kill monkeys.One of the main findings about hunting by chimpanzees was that it appears to be seasonal (Stanford et al. 1994a). In one study it was determined that approx. 40 % of the kills of colobus monkeys occurred in the dry months of August and September. This was a seasonal time of food shortage in the forest. And even in these communities of chimpanzees that did resort to hunting and eating colobus monkeys–the colobus monkeys only comprised approx. 3 per cent **of the diet.
In times of food shortage animals must adapt to survive. This is most likely the very reason that man became a hunter as well.
I am quite sure that chimpanzees do not factory farm, debeak live chickens, use farm machinery, or cook their 3 per cent of meat.
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Gertabelle
Guest
I lived on a farm with animals we raised and ate. We also sold our cows and steers to others. I helped render (cut up) one of the steers who had just been shot. Just part of the cycle of life.
Our animals (except for the llamas) were completely free-roaming, in fields that were between ten and nineteen acres. There were trees for shade, watering troughs, and salt licks. Most of the steers and all of the cows had names. We also had sheep, llamas, and chickens, countless barn cats, and a few ducks who called our barnyard home until we called them “dinner” one Christmas. We fed them, then they fed us. Just part of the cycle of life.
We “rescued” a number of calves from a veal farm where they were treated inhumanely. We raised them and then ate the males when they were grown. We cared for them, then they gave back to us. Just part of the cycle of life.
Not a single cow or heiffer had to go into treatment for the “humiliation” of being artificially inseminated. Not a single cow or heiffer (or sheep or llama) sued for abuse when we reached into her birth canal to fix a breech, or to turn a hoof, or in any other way to save her life by helping her deliver. We only lost one sheep due to our treatment of her, because we waited too long to have the sheep sheered one spring, and bugs had started breeding in one ewe’s wool and skin.
We paid the vet bills, we paid for the corn seed, we grew and harvested the corn and alfalfa hay, we paid for the oats, we paid for the land on which they roamed freely, we paid to bring them to our farm, and we paid to have them killed and to help us with the rendering. It’s the cycle of life.
Yes, there are inhumane conditions out there, and these farms are indeed very much the norm – but coming into these forums using the Word of God as the club for crushing anyone who disagrees with the “eating-meat-is-satanic” mentality does nothing but make people want to dig in their heels and order a steak.
When the anti-meat activists grow up enought to realize that there are, in fact, opinions other than theirs that are equally valid, they may have a chance at changing the world. But the attitudes of many of the vegans on this thread are uglier than the crimes of which they are accusing the meat-eaters here.
I’ll be praying for your growing from adolesence to adulthood.
Gertie
Our animals (except for the llamas) were completely free-roaming, in fields that were between ten and nineteen acres. There were trees for shade, watering troughs, and salt licks. Most of the steers and all of the cows had names. We also had sheep, llamas, and chickens, countless barn cats, and a few ducks who called our barnyard home until we called them “dinner” one Christmas. We fed them, then they fed us. Just part of the cycle of life.
We “rescued” a number of calves from a veal farm where they were treated inhumanely. We raised them and then ate the males when they were grown. We cared for them, then they gave back to us. Just part of the cycle of life.
Not a single cow or heiffer had to go into treatment for the “humiliation” of being artificially inseminated. Not a single cow or heiffer (or sheep or llama) sued for abuse when we reached into her birth canal to fix a breech, or to turn a hoof, or in any other way to save her life by helping her deliver. We only lost one sheep due to our treatment of her, because we waited too long to have the sheep sheered one spring, and bugs had started breeding in one ewe’s wool and skin.
We paid the vet bills, we paid for the corn seed, we grew and harvested the corn and alfalfa hay, we paid for the oats, we paid for the land on which they roamed freely, we paid to bring them to our farm, and we paid to have them killed and to help us with the rendering. It’s the cycle of life.
Yes, there are inhumane conditions out there, and these farms are indeed very much the norm – but coming into these forums using the Word of God as the club for crushing anyone who disagrees with the “eating-meat-is-satanic” mentality does nothing but make people want to dig in their heels and order a steak.
When the anti-meat activists grow up enought to realize that there are, in fact, opinions other than theirs that are equally valid, they may have a chance at changing the world. But the attitudes of many of the vegans on this thread are uglier than the crimes of which they are accusing the meat-eaters here.
I’ll be praying for your growing from adolesence to adulthood.
Gertie
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Sunflower15
Guest
Except that nobody I know eats baby seals…it’s just for their fur…which is a waste of animal, when we can clothe ourselves with other materials…
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Sunflower15
Guest
Funny that you mention that. I’ve been a veggie for 16 yrs. and have a 12 yr old boy. When I was pregnant everyone told me that I HAD to eat animals… well…when he was born late at night, he was the largest baby of the 25 born that day at the main hospital for childbirth in Orlando. I had nurses parading through my room, until I began to get concerned and asked why. I was told that I had become famous because very tall, big boned women had tiny babies, while I who am pretty small-framed [5’3" and 125 lbs] had the largest baby [who was born 2 wks ahead of schedule!]…I explained it was because I’m vegetarian.
Large animals tend to be, especially the “work” ones that need endurance, such as horses, cattle, and even others as hippos, rhinoceros, elephants…etc. Your midwife seems very biased…at least when it comes to size…it just doesn’t apply in terms of humans or animals. The carnivores are much smaller animals that aren’t as suitable for heavy work.
Also, in terms of strength, I was told once by a boxing trainer that usually boxers eat a lot of soy to become strong, the protein per weight was better…at least that’s what he said - I’m no nutritionist. I just know I feel SO much better and healthier than when I used to eat poultry, pork and beef.
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Sunflower15
Guest
The description you give of the life of these animals is night and day from what the posters are talking about in this thread. I’m trying to understand why you would disagree with them in the sense of animal cruelty. It seems your family did not abuse the animals, even if eventually they ate them.
I am trying to understand why you consider vegetarianism as infantile…oh well…
So, do you believe that vegetarians have valid arguments? [Since you accuse them of not seeing the validity in the views of meat-eaters]
One thing I haven’t seen posts on in here is the fact that raising an animal for food takes up enough grain that would otherwise feed a family for a few months. One of the best arguments for vegetarianism for me is actually pro-people, not animals, it fights poverty and famine by better distribution and utilization of farming to raise children, not animals…we could end hunger if we gave up eating meat for a while…
btw --Did you eat the llamas? I have eaten llama jerky…it stinks but is not bad tasting…**
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Sunflower15
Guest
I sure hope you aren’t consuming any animal blood! It is forbidden…you know…in the Bible. It is one of the very few food restrictions we still have as Christians. Jews and Muslims cannot consume animal blood either. I believe animal blood, drowned/asphyxiated animals and animals sacrificed to idols, where the only prohibitions left.
I know someone who liked their steaks “blue”. He preferred the “Drill Manual” method of cooking: Drop on the grill - TWO, THREE - flip - TWO, THREE - remove.
“I want my steak rare. Very rare. I want it so rare that a skilled vet can resuscitate it. Not even flame-kissed, just barely flame-acknowledged. Just show it a picture of a fire. As a matter of fact, just cut its throat, wipe its ***, and slap it on the plate.”
I’ve had uncooked beef twice: once at a barbeque, I ate some beer-marinated beef that had yet to be cooked. It was chemically “cooked” by the action of the beer, but heat-wise was raw.
I have also had beef sashimi at a Japanese restaurant. Nice.
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GottaKnow
Guest
Actually, you are wrong. Kudo’s for your humane treatment of the animals you raised for slaughter. That is very good.
But, that is not the issue. You see, Veganism is what the world is coming to. It is headed that way out of necessity. It is the logical conclusion to a sustainable future. You can resist and rant and accuse and deny and even lie if you want. But, it does not change the fact that we are in a terrible mess because of the human lust for animal flesh. the facts are in the news and all over the web. Good, verifiable facts from reliable, reputable and fairly prestigious sources.
But, of all the issues that concern me more than the treatment of animals and even the neanderthal lust for meat is the biohazards created by the factory farms. All the food recalls that you here about in the media are because of animal waste in the food. The media is in the pockets of the meat and dairy industries and they downplay the epidemic so that the companies don’t look bad.(rat droppings… what a load of HOOEY!)
Being a Vegan, my concern is how YOUR food is contaminating mine. I don’t want your second hand smoke; and I don’t want your salmonella and such in my food.
It also takes my food away to feed it to your food. Your food takes 1000 times as much food to eat to produce it, and as much water and then poops it out into waste which in turn becomes a biohazard. Hence, the infamous swine flu and bird fly, etc.
So, while you are praying for us to grow up, we are praying for you to stop killing us.
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Sunflower15
Guest
You know…I was holding back from saying this but it’s true. Animals are killing their predators with all sorts of diseases [mad cow syndrome, bird flu, salmonella, e-coli…and the list goes on, even with huge industries trying to cover it up].
And, not to speak of high cholesterol, high blood pressure…well… carnivores after a certain age know that they’ll get all kinds of health issues thanks to their diet. Those things are uncommon in vegetarians and vegans, at least not in the same numbers and degree.
What concerns me is that things that don’t belong to produce, such as organisms that don’t thrive in produce [salmonella, e-coli] are getting in the lettuce, the spinach, etc, because of the rampant infestation in animals…especially those raised by those “other” farms that mistreat animals.
And, all along carnivores think they are eating “healthy”
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Jamison97
Guest
Just because he is an environmental activist doesn’t mean he can’t be a Catholic. Cheese and rice, I’m an environmental activist and a Catholic. Are you calling me un-Catholic?:bighanky:
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Sunflower15
Guest
Actually, we are all supposed to be! Shame on us! Not for nothing God called St. Francis to reform His Church…and St. Francis would be condemned [if not burnt at the stake] by most of the posters in this forum…
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Abbadon
Guest
Veganism is not the future. We are omnivores and will remain that way. Also the amount of higher proteins and minerals contained within meat takes far less resources to grow and consume than it would the equivalent amount of relative plant matter. Without daily supplements vegans are very weak and lacking several key minerals and proteins, even with these supplements they are still so.
The future is growing meats in bulk through cell replication and growth insertion without the requirement of an animal. Trails are proceeding very well and within a few decades should be a reality. This will allow for far more sustainable production and remove ethical quams with the process of acquiring meat. and require FAR less resources than either agriculture and conventional methods.
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Abbadon
Guest
Okay this is just retardedYou know…I was holding back from saying this but it’s true. Animals are killing their predators with all sorts of diseases [mad cow syndrome, bird flu, salmonella, e-coli…and the list goes on, even with huge industries trying to cover it up].
And, not to speak of high cholesterol, high blood pressure…well… carnivores after a certain age know that they’ll get all kinds of health issues thanks to their diet. Those things are uncommon in vegetarians and vegans, at least not in the same numbers and degree.
What concerns me is that things that don’t belong to produce, such as organisms that don’t thrive in produce [salmonella, e-coli] are getting in the lettuce, the spinach, etc, because of the rampant infestation in animals…especially those raised by those “other” farms that mistreat animals.
And, all along carnivores think they are eating “healthy”
Bacteria and viruses are not symbiotic organisms of our thier hosts (most of the time, lysogenic viruses are but can enter the lytic cycle and still continue to destory the host cell). They are parasites to the animals just as much as they are parasites to us.
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4elise
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I believe the OP was addressing the inhumane conditions - not the ones you noted you were associated with - I also believe that the strong response from some vegans is generally not to something so well stated or respectful as your post but rather a response to the others who post so strongly as to attack anyone who would consider omitting meat from their diet.
You - who have raised and eat meat are able to acknowledge that in fact “inhumane conditions out there, and these farms are indeed very much the norm” - others who raise animals in a pastoral setting don’t seem willing to even consider that this happens, or that it is the ‘norm’.
I think there is a lot of growing up to be done by posters on both sides of this issue, and I haven’t read a single word by the OP’er Marfran that anyone could consider anything but a faithful and kind response. I believe Marfran has tried very hard to keep this discussion a discussion of the issue.
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GottaKnow
Guest
HORSEHOCKEY!!! You have no clue as to what you are talking about. Ignorant talk like this is one of the factors perpetuating the very lie you are a victim of.Go tell that to the folks in THIS forum.veganfitness.net/forum/index.php?sid=b1f4be67e7545f9e74627a44bd81d9f2 You might find it educational.Oh and tell it to Mac Danzig,too. Or Bruce Lee if he was still alive.
Which is just sick. But, at least it could ease some of the unnecessary suffering of the animals. The only question is what effect will it have on future generations when the genetically mutated strain of fake meat begins to bond with the DNA of our children and grandchildren? and it will.There is a truth to “you are what you eat”. Besides, how will you determine the cuts of meat you ogres drool over? Or will it all be hamboogers and snotdogs?
I cannot believe how deliberate you people are in your ignorance. You are killing everyone around you and you are fighting to maintain your sin. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? What part of “WARNING” do you not understand?
You are like the guy in the old joke that says,“Lord, why did you not save me?” to which Jesus replied,“I sent you three boats and a helicopter… What else did you expect?”
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Marfran
Guest
Gertie: I am glad that you bring your personal experience to the table and present it in a respectful way. The intent of the original post was to address the inhumane treatment of animals in* large-scale *agribusiness. I think that “omnivores” should be aware of these practices, as well as the vegetarians/vegans–that it affects them (omnivores) even more than it does the persons who do not partake in the consumption of animal products.
It is good to hear from a farmer who respects and treats their animals well. This post is concerned with agribusiness practices that are not humane–it does not promote a omnivorous*** or ***a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle–though many posters bring their preferences and choices to the table. I think that you CAN EAT MEAT and ***still ***be concerned for how animals are treated in factory farm conditions.
I do take issue with some of your references to vegans being satanic, however, and your term anti-meat activist. I understand that you take a defensive position to your occupation and feel that your livlihood is threatened by people who choose not to purchase your products (for whatever reason).
I ask you to step back a little, and just ponder the original intention of the post. It merely asks if this treatment of animals is OK and acceptable–not* your *treatment of *your *animals–the treatment of the animals in this video.
And as a personal aside to you Gertie: I am not an adolescent and I suspect that I am even older than you!!! I grew up as an omnivore, and spent several decades as a vegetarian, and for numerous HEALTH and ethical considerations, have taken the plunge to veganism. It has absolutely wonderful HEALTH benefits, including a fantastic effect on my blood sugar!!! Ironically, many older persons are turning to a plant-based diet to manage a multitude of HEALTH conditions. For anyone who is not up to date on plant-based diets, I recommend doing a little reading. There are a lot of myths and misconceptions out there.
One really fantastic book is ***Defeating Diabetes ***by Brenda Davis. Even if you do not have diabetes or pre-diabetes you can learn much from this book about the benefits of a plant-based diet.
And Gertie, not to pick on you, but I find your sentence: It’s the cycle of life. to be innaccurate. What we do to animals is not the cycle of life–it is what we ***choose ***to do to animals, and has nothing to do with a cycle, and it actually disruptive to ***natural cycles ***of life.
Gertie, You sound like a wonderful consciencious person, and I do not want you to feel like you are under attack here. I would hope that ALL of the participants in this discussion bring heartfelt, well thought, and educated opinions to the table.
PLEASE EVERYONE–think twice before you make a HOT-HEADED response, call another poster names, or just respond in a mean or nasty way. This IS a Catholic forum, is it not???
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