Animals You Eat: Bad Meat!

[cathybramble]

Why is that irrelevant?Poultry houses definitely come under the “large scale” farming definition.They can house thousands of birds.
Re. “research”: Apparently living near poultry houses & knowing good Christian families who run them doesn’t count as knowledge? How many folks who contribute to this thread are involved in agriculture or live in a farming community?Or have any experience raising livestock profitably-as opposed to a hobby?
What is unethical about poultry production?
What constitutes “factory farming” in the first place? How many head of dairy cows makes a “factory dairy”?
I see posts about livestock being “shot full of drugs.” Medications are generally administered to farm animals for the same reason they are given to dogs & cats:to keep them free of parasites & protected from diseases.

why are you defending factory farms if you don’t know what they are? if you want to know what is unethical about them, please google it. otherwise it’s kind of difficult for you to contribute to this discussion in a meaningful way… or are you just here to bicker because you don’t like the topic?

 

[Marfran]

Would the phase “hen house” or “chicken coop” be less offensive, somehow? It seems as if you have deemed any farm a factory farm by continuing in this same vein. I can’t believe that your argument centers around what you call the building were chickens live in on a farm. How can “chicken coop” be offensive?

Is anyone here arguing for factory farms? Isn’t a discussion a two way street, a sharing of ideals, where is the factory farm contingent in this discussion? Besides the focus of the discussion seems to be veganism. Are you a vegan? Do you believe in veganism?

The focus of the discussion should be “Animals you eat: Bad Meat!”

The animals that I eat aren’t “bad meat” most are grown in the most organic fashion known to man and approved by God. So the premise of your side of this discussion has been disproven. Not all animals eaten are from factory farms. Since the topic doesn’t make an exception for that fact, one must conclude that not all meat is bad meat.

Sean: I am glad that you purposefully avoid meat from factory farms and instead choose meat produced from organic free-range conditions. Yes, my intention in starting this thread was to focus on the condition and the treatment experienced by factory farmed animals. Vegans/vegetarians go a step farther in their consideration of animals, and whether they should even be a part of the equation of the human diet. It is really hard to remove these opinions from the equation, I guess, for both the vegans/vegetarians and the omnivores. I think that there is absolute merit to have another thread that discusses the ethics of even eating meat at all. Or we can continue to mix it all up, and keep flinging food at each other in this fight.

 

[cathybramble]

Would the phase “hen house” or “chicken coop” be less offensive, somehow? It seems as if you have deemed any farm a factory farm by continuing in this same vein. I can’t believe that your argument centers around what you call the building were chickens live in on a farm. How can “chicken coop” be offensive?

Is anyone here arguing for factory farms? Isn’t a discussion a two way street, a sharing of ideals, where is the factory farm contingent in this discussion? Besides the focus of the discussion seems to be veganism. Are you a vegan? Do you believe in veganism?

The focus of the discussion should be “Animals you eat: Bad Meat!”

The animals that I eat aren’t “bad meat” most are grown in the most organic fashion known to man and approved by God. So the premise of your side of this discussion has been disproven. Not all animals eaten are from factory farms. Since the topic doesn’t make an exception for that fact, one must conclude that not all meat is bad meat.

i think you are here to bicker over nothing too. have fun, but i’m going to start ignoring posts that don’t contribute anything to the discussion.

 

[Marfran]

What is unethical about poultry production?

De-beaking live chickens without anesthetic so that they can be stuffed into cages that are too small for them to turn around in. They are de-beaked so that they don’t peck the other inmates to death in an effort to free themselves.

 

[Marfran]

CNN report for your viewing enjoyment!

youtube.com/watch?v=S5rd2_d4HWc

This is worth having a gander at, everyone!!!

 

[Marfran]

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?pictureid=1668&albumid=250&dl=1242279923&thumb=1

This is fabulous!!!

 

[Cracker_Mom]

De-beaking live chickens without anesthetic so that they can be stuffed into cages that are too small for them to turn around in. They are de-beaked so that they don’t peck the other inmates to death in an effort to free themselves.

This is a reference to egg production.Poultry houses are not run this way.
Would it be better for the hens to peck each other to death?
"To free themselves?"Chickens don’t pick at each other to escape. They can do it under most any circumstance & it begins even with baby chicks a few days old.Chickens are great & can be fun to raise, but they have very small brains & a taste for blood.
Hogs have more intelligence but are equally blood thirsty & will eat whatever stands still long enough, including their own young.
God gave us animals for food among other things. It gets silly when we sentimentalize them & attribute human attributes to them. They’re great & part of Creation, but they’re not children.
Meat is good for you, but everything in moderation.

 

[That_one_guy]

Would the phase “hen house” or “chicken coop” be less offensive, somehow? It seems as if you have deemed any farm a factory farm by continuing in this same vein. I can’t believe that your argument centers around what you call the building were chickens live in on a farm. How can “chicken coop” be offensive?

Have you ever seen a chicken coop? I had one .It was about 16 ft wide by 10 ft deep and 8 ft high. The hens and rooster were free to come and go as they pleased. They always returned to the same spot every night. This is a far cry from the warehouse with thousands of hens packed so tight they can’t even move. They never see the light of day. They are relegated to “egg machines”. It takes a hen about three days to lay an egg. So a dozen eggs is roughly 36 days of one hens efforts. A little cholesterol bomb for you to gulp down probably at least 3 per serving in about 5 minutes.

Is anyone here arguing for factory farms? Isn’t a discussion a two way street, a sharing of ideals, where is the factory farm contingent in this discussion?

Yes, that is an interesting twist. But, it seems that the omnivores think that if we condemn factory farms more babies will be aborted. So, they start trolling for vegans.

Besides the focus of the discussion seems to be veganism. Are you a vegan? Do you believe in veganism?

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=250&pictureid=1668

The focus of the discussion should be “Animals you eat: Bad Meat!”

The animals that I eat aren’t “bad meat” most

"most’? if that was the case then this discussion would have never began! Do a little research,Sean!

are grown in the most organic fashion known to man and approved by God. So the premise of your side of this discussion has been disproven.

Sorry![SIGN]WRONG[/SIGN]

Not all animals eaten are from factory farms.

:thumbsup:correct. But "most of them ARE

Since the topic doesn’t make an exception for that fact, one must conclude that not all meat is bad meat.

Perhaps you should go back to the top and actually read the posts …
(…just sayin’)

 

[Marfran]

I’m an omnivore. However, I don’t condemn vegetarians and vegans for choosing to eat only vegetables, fruits, and other non-meat/dairy products.

I understand why vegans/vegetarians feel that meat is a food product that has a lot of damaging effects to human health, the environment, poverty and the problems of feeding less-affluent peoples, and to the animals themselves. What I do not understand are the negative, condemning attitudes from omnivores towards vegans/vegetarians. Is it because vegans/vegetarians pose a threat to the livlihoods of omnivores, as these diet choices become more main stream???

Holly3278: How do you feel about the meat that you eat?? Does it matter how the animals are treated at the slaughterhouse, or not?? Would you be comfortable slaughtering your own meat?? Would you treat animals in the same way as depicted in the video, or would you do things differently? Do you care if the chicken that you eat, or received eggs from, was de-beaked without anesthetic and lived in a cramped cage???

 

[Marfran]

This is a reference to egg production.Poultry houses are not run this way.
Would it be better for the hens to peck each other to death?
"To free themselves?"Chickens don’t pick at each other to escape. They can do it under most any circumstance & it begins even with baby chicks a few days old.Chickens are great & can be fun to raise, but they have very small brains & a taste for blood.
Hogs have more intelligence but are equally blood thirsty & will eat whatever stands still long enough, including their own young.
God gave us animals for food among other things. It gets silly when we sentimentalize them & attribute human attributes to them. They’re great & part of Creation, but they’re not children.
Meat is good for you, but everything in moderation.

So you are a proponent of de-beaking live chickens without anesthetic??? You feel this is a good practice??? Do you do this yourself in your farming situation?

 

[cathybramble]

This is a reference to egg production.Poultry houses are not run this way.
Would it be better for the hens to peck each other to death?
"To free themselves?"Chickens don’t pick at each other to escape. They can do it under most any circumstance & it begins even with baby chicks a few days old.Chickens are great & can be fun to raise, but they have very small brains & a taste for blood.
Hogs have more intelligence but are equally blood thirsty & will eat whatever stands still long enough, including their own young.
God gave us animals for food among other things. It gets silly when we sentimentalize them & attribute human attributes to them. They’re great & part of Creation, but they’re not children.
Meat is good for you, but everything in moderation.

i see a lot of people sentimentalizing eating meat. which is more absurd?

what i don’t understand is when people justify eating meat because it’s “natural” and according to the poll here, “the way God created.” but in the process deny farmed animals everything that is natural to THEM. nesting materials, straw to lay on, contact with their young, even the ability to turn around and move freely.

and instead of seeing the obvious, that we are denying them what is natural and it stresses them out, we say they are bloodthirsty. i know people who have chicken coops… the chickens do not peck each other to death. same with pigs, i’ve seen them on real farms myself, they are kept in pastures and barns living together with no problems.

 

[That_one_guy]

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?pictureid=1668&albumid=250&dl=1242279923&thumb=1

This is fabulous!!!

[SIGN]Thanks![/SIGN]

 

[That_one_guy]

i see a lot of people sentimentalizing eating meat. which is more absurd?

what i don’t understand is when people justify eating meat because it’s “natural” and according to the poll here, “the way God created.” but in the process deny farmed animals everything that is natural to THEM. nesting materials, straw to lay on, contact with their young, even the ability to turn around and move freely.

and instead of seeing the obvious, that we are denying them what is natural and it stresses them out, we say they are bloodthirsty. i know people who have chicken coops… the chickens do not peck each other to death. same with pigs, i’ve seen them on real farms myself, they are kept in pastures and barns living together with no problems.

:tiphat
Exactly! It is almost as if these folks make this stuff up willy-nilly! I think that is called “polemics”. Just saying something because it sounds good. At least a few people have the common sense to at least have some sort of quote or link to back up their misinformation!

There was an old legend that said trolls can’t stand the sound of bells. Perhaps, if we ring some bells…

 

[Cracker_Mom]

So you are a proponent of de-beaking live chickens without anesthetic??? You feel this is a good practice??? Do you do this yourself in your farming situation?

As opposed to de-beaking dead chickens?
Most operations are performed on livestock without anesthetics.
Sure, I would remove the sharp end of the beak if a hen was cannibalizing other chickens.If done properly when the hen is young it’s not a big deal.Only the tip of the beak needs to be trimmed.When this is done badly or excessively it can make eating difficult for the hen.We’ve only raised chickens on a small scale & cutting & cauterizing beaks is more trouble than throwing the offender in the stew pot.
Horns are also removed by cutting & cauterizing.On an adult cow it’s a messy ordeal but sure beats having one cow gore another-or gore you.
Most preventative operations like debeaking, de-horning , removing tails,& castration are best done when the animal is young & there is less stress caused.We removed tails & castrated lambs & calves just using special rubber bands which cut off the blood flow.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

i see a lot of people sentimentalizing eating meat. which is more absurd?

what i don’t understand is when people justify eating meat because it’s “natural” and according to the poll here, “the way God created.” but in the process deny farmed animals everything that is natural to THEM. nesting materials, straw to lay on, contact with their young, even the ability to turn around and move freely.

and instead of seeing the obvious, that we are denying them what is natural and it stresses them out, we say they are bloodthirsty. i know people who have chicken coops… the chickens do not peck each other to death. same with pigs, i’ve seen them on real farms myself, they are kept in pastures and barns living together with no problems.

Plenty of our chickens pecked each other & would have happily eaten each other if allowed to.Ditto for hogs.Stuff happens, even on “old fashioned” farms. It’s the nature of the beasts.Crowding absolutely stresses animals, but the behaviors are already programmed into their hard drives.
Some breeds are less aggressive than others, some better mothers.Farrowing crates are not to confine the mom but to protect the piglets who the sow often crushes or sees as another food source.
But this thread’s supposed to be about consuming meat I thought?

 

[Marfran]

Exactly.
Check out St. Peter’s vision from Heaven, too:all sorts of random critters permissible to eat.Straight from God. Unless you think God would mislead us…

Please **post **your biblical quotes–posting them facilitates more fluent discussion. I think that there is great merit in discussing biblical references. There is quite a lot of wisdom in the Bible–some of the wisdom pertains to the era of history in which the authors’ lived–some of it transcends time–some of the wisdom is futuristic, meaning that it could not be understood by the peoples in that period of history, but as man evolves the wisdom comes to the surface…

Man was created in the Garden of Eden, not as an omnivore, but as a fruit and plant eater. Fast forward through numerous biblical events to the time where man now eats meat. As a matter of survival, man has been granted the permission to eat meat, and the Bible lays down a few laws about this.

*Deut 14.3-21
Clean and Unclean Foods3 You shall not eat any abhorrent thing. 4These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, 5the deer, the gazelle, the roebuck, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope, and the mountain-sheep. 6Any animal that divides the hoof and has the hoof cloven in two, and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. 7Yet of those that chew the cud or have the hoof cloven you shall not eat these: the camel, the hare, and the rock-badger, because they chew the cud but do not divide the hoof; they are unclean for you. 8And the pig, because it divides the hoof but does not chew the cud, is unclean for you. You shall not eat their meat, and you shall not touch their carcasses.
9 Of all that live in water you may eat these: whatever has fins and scales you may eat. 10And whatever does not have fins and scales you shall not eat; it is unclean for you.
11 You may eat any clean birds. 12But these are the ones that you shall not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the osprey, 13the buzzard, the kite of any kind; 14every raven of any kind; 15the ostrich, the nighthawk, the seagull, the hawk of any kind; 16the little owl and the great owl, the water-hen 17and the desert-owl, the carrion vulture and the cormorant, 18the stork, the heron of any kind; the hoopoe and the bat. 19And all winged insects are unclean for you; they shall not be eaten. 20You may eat any clean winged creature.
21 You shall not eat anything that dies of itself; you may give it to aliens residing in your towns for them to eat, or you may sell it to a foreigner. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God.
You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk. ***

The Bible says that you should not eat pig. The Bible says that you should not eat what lives in the water and does not have fins and scales. WHO HERE EATS SHRIMP OR SCALLOPS, etc.??? The Bible says that you should not eat eagles, owls, hawks of any kind. DO YOU KNOW WHY??? If man were to eat eagles, owls, and hawks he would upset the perfect balance of nature. Someone help me with the Biblical reference of NOT EATING any animal that is a carnivore–there is a Biblical reference about this. THIS GOES TO THE GUY’S POST ABOUT EATING TIGERS. You should not eat the BAT–anybody know why??? There is also a Biblical reference/warning about the consumption of alcohol and the eating of meat–if someone knows it please post it–where we are advised to stay away from these items.

Anyone know why we shouldn’t eat the VULTURE? People living in the time when the Bible was penned, could not have understood why–they did not have the base of science we now have.

There is much merit to including the Bible in our discussions!!! Some of the wisdom is obvious, some not so obvious, some is up for interpretation, some is intended for the period of history in which it was written, some is intended for future generations, and some is even mistranslated (there are disputes among scholars over translations of specific words).

In the time that the Bible was written, animals were killed and eaten, but not in the quantities that we see today. Meat eating in Biblical times was often reserved for special occassions. The way that we eat meat today is very different, and in very different quantities than in Biblical times. Animals are also not raised or killed in the same manner.

So please, anyone who has a Biblical quote to add, please post that quote to make the discussions easier.

 

[Marfran]

As opposed to de-beaking dead chickens?
Most operations are performed on livestock without anesthetics.
Sure, I would remove the sharp end of the beak if a hen was cannibalizing other chickens.If done properly when the hen is young it’s not a big deal.Only the tip of the beak needs to be trimmed.When this is done badly or excessively it can make eating difficult for the hen.We’ve only raised chickens on a small scale & cutting & cauterizing beaks is more trouble than throwing the offender in the stew pot.
Horns are also removed by cutting & cauterizing.On an adult cow it’s a messy ordeal but sure beats having one cow gore another-or gore you.
Most preventative operations like debeaking, de-horning , removing tails,& castration are best done when the animal is young & there is less stress caused.We removed tails & castrated lambs & calves just using special rubber bands which cut off the blood flow.

So you approve or dissaprove of the conditions in the video??? You seem to be saying that you only do a mild removal of the TIP of the bird’s beak–and only if that bird is a problem. What about the situation that this video depicts?? What are your feelings on that?? You are defending*** your ***experience. You are avoiding addressing the animals in the VIDEO who receive treatment, not at ***your ***hands but the hands of other farmers (who have larger operations than you).

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Please **post **your biblical quotes–posting them facilitates more fluent discussion. I think that there is great merit in discussing biblical references. There is quite a lot of wisdom in the Bible–some of the wisdom pertains to the era of history in which the authors’ lived–some of it transcends time–some of the wisdom is futuristic, meaning that it could not be understood by the peoples in that period of history, but as man evolves the wisdom comes to the surface…

Man was created in the Garden of Eden, not as an omnivore, but as a fruit and plant eater. Fast forward through numerous biblical events to the time where man now eats meat. As a matter of survival, man has been granted the permission to eat meat, and the Bible lays down a few laws about this.

*Deut 14.3-21
Clean and Unclean Foods3 You shall not eat any abhorrent thing. 4These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, 5the deer, the gazelle, the roebuck, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope, and the mountain-sheep. 6Any animal that divides the hoof and has the hoof cloven in two, and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. 7Yet of those that chew the cud or have the hoof cloven you shall not eat these: the camel, the hare, and the rock-badger, because they chew the cud but do not divide the hoof; they are unclean for you. 8And the pig, because it divides the hoof but does not chew the cud, is unclean for you. You shall not eat their meat, and you shall not touch their carcasses.
9 Of all that live in water you may eat these: whatever has fins and scales you may eat. 10And whatever does not have fins and scales you shall not eat; it is unclean for you.
11 You may eat any clean birds. 12But these are the ones that you shall not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the osprey, 13the buzzard, the kite of any kind; 14every raven of any kind; 15the ostrich, the nighthawk, the seagull, the hawk of any kind; 16the little owl and the great owl, the water-hen 17and the desert-owl, the carrion vulture and the cormorant, 18the stork, the heron of any kind; the hoopoe and the bat. 19And all winged insects are unclean for you; they shall not be eaten. 20You may eat any clean winged creature.
21 You shall not eat anything that dies of itself; you may give it to aliens residing in your towns for them to eat, or you may sell it to a foreigner. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God.
You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk. ***

The Bible says that you should not eat pig. The Bible says that you should not eat what lives in the water and does not have fins and scales. WHO HERE EATS SHRIMP OR SCALLOPS, etc.??? The Bible says that you should not eat eagles, owls, hawks of any kind. DO YOU KNOW WHY??? If man were to eat eagles, owls, and hawks he would upset the perfect balance of nature. Someone help me with the Biblical reference of NOT EATING any animal that is a carnivore–there is a Biblical reference about this. THIS GOES TO THE GUY’S POST ABOUT EATING TIGERS. You should not eat the BAT–anybody know why??? There is also a Biblical reference/warning about the consumption of alcohol and the eating of meat–if someone knows it please post it–where we are advised to stay away from these items.

Anyone know why we shouldn’t eat the VULTURE? People living in the time when the Bible was penned, could not have understood why–they did not have the base of science we now have.

There is much merit to including the Bible in our discussions!!! Some of the wisdom is obvious, some not so obvious, some is up for interpretation, some is intended for the period of history in which it was written, some is intended for future generations, and some is even mistranslated (there are disputes among scholars over translations of specific words).

In the time that the Bible was written, animals were killed and eaten, but not in the quantities that we see today. Meat eating in Biblical times was often reserved for special occassions. The way that we eat meat today is very different, and in very different quantities than in Biblical times. Animals are also not raised or killed in the same manner.

So please, anyone who has a Biblical quote to add, please post that quote to make the discussions easier.

As someone with limited time I’ll leave it to others to find the reference to St Peter’s vision. The point was he was shown by God that all foods were OK to eat under the New Covenant. As Christians, that means us.Seems simple enough.

 

[Michaeljc4]

I think people get turned off by the moralizing tone of ‘shouldn’t,’ i.e. “you shouldn’t eat meat.” May I humbly suggest that we suggest ‘wouldn’t,’ like “You* wouldn’t *want to eat that steak if you knew…” It’s about facts, in my opinion, and my hope that facts about how things are produced will lead people of good conscience to realize the true costs of most meat consumption. While there are certainly moral arguments to be made about not eating animals at all, I’d rather focus on eating less (or none) of the animals that are so costly.

I’m in no position to lecture anyone about anything. With that said, I’ve come to realize a few things that I am eager to share, and I can only hope that people are interested in dialogue. Perhaps I am naive, but I think that if enough people realized where their food was coming from–including vegetables that are harvested by workers who are treated unjustly–things may begin to change.

 

[JimG]

THIS GOES TO THE GUY’S POST ABOUT EATING TIGERS.

Well, I really must apologize. I urge everyone not to eat tigers. And to my knowledge neither Catholic Answers nor any of its staff have proposed the eating of tigers. Even John Stossel, who appears to have very few fans here, has not to my knowledge eaten a tiger. His statement at the beginning of the 7 minute video was a bit of hyperbole used to introduce the idea that species which are marketable, species which are bought and sold, do in fact prosper and grow greatly in numbers compared to those which are governmentally ‘protected.’ He makes the point that chickens, for example, are not an endangered species, though they might be if we did not eat them.