Anime Thread #2

[Kamaduck]

I think most of the mistreatment of Tsunderes to other people is mainly slapstick violence. The “realistic” interactions are the verbal and non-verbal cues that don’t involve hitting people with sticks and wooden swords… Tenofovir did a good job describing these characters.

Asuka is a proto-tsundere. Developed way before these characters became popular, so the focus is different. The Rebuild movies Asuka has some elements of the post Shana Tsunderes though.

Whoops. I kinda forgot that Evangelion was, well, Evangelion. It’s probably not much help in this conversation.

So according to Tenofovir (unless I misunderstood him, which is always possible), the appeal of the tsundere archetype lies in her ability to “reciprocate to the strongest degree”, the fact that even though she acts mean, or nasty, or cold, she can be sweet to those who win her over. It’s hard to earn her trust and respect, but once you earn it, it’s worth it, because she won’t ever desert you. When she does allow herself to love, she loves passionately.

Is that correct?

 

[suko]

Personally, I think the majority of men (not all, of course) simply find tsunderes appealing because

1. they look cute
2. because of #1, just about everything they do is cute, especially the rare moments when they do allow themselves to act tenderly towards the male protagonist.

 

[Kamaduck]

Personally, I think the majority of men (not all, of course) simply find tsunderes appealing because

1. they look cute
2. because of #1, just about everything they do is cute, especially the rare moments when they do allow themselves to act tenderly towards the male protagonist.

But that doesn’t make any sense. All kinds of characters are cute and sweet, many of whom are not tsunderes in any sense. There has to be an appeal beyond that. I mean, if it’s purely the cute and sweet aspect of the archetype that gets people, why bother making her harsh on the outside? Why not just have her be sweet all the time? There has to be more than that, otherwise the archetype wouldn’t be so popular.

I’m still thinking about which portions of the archetype are female-specific. I’m thinking the male equivalent would be a Jerk with a Heart of Gold (to borrow the term in use on TV Tropes- JWAHOG is usually male, while tsundere examples are usually female, but there is some overlap).

The thing about Jerk with a Heart of Gold characters is that they’re awesome when done right. They need to be fleshed out. They need to respect or grow to respect other people. They need to be held accountable for the bad things they do. They shouldn’t be overly violent, certainly not towards people who can’t or won’t defend themselves. Their stories also tend to work best when they’re partly influenced by friends, rivals, colleagues, and other people who are not love interests. If somebody writes that, I will watch it, and I will more than likely enjoy it. (I mean, no promises. But a well-written and balanced Jerk with a Heart of Gold can make for a more interesting protagonist or love interest than a hero without such obvious flaws.)

If someone writes a JWAHOG who doesn’t fit those parameters- one who is violent or spiteful to those who can’t defend themselves, one whose flaws are simply excused rather than dealt with, one who is entirely won over by a single girl who somehow transforms him through the incredible power of eros- yeah, I’m probably not going to be impressed. Overplay the “jerk” aspect, and they become unlikable or abusive.

Still figuring out what I think of this whole “mean but then also really sweet” thing. I’m going to need to think about this some more.

 

[Tenofovir]

Whoops. I kinda forgot that Evangelion was, well, Evangelion. It’s probably not much help in this conversation.

So according to Tenofovir (unless I misunderstood him, which is always possible), the appeal of the tsundere archetype lies in her ability to “reciprocate to the strongest degree”, the fact that even though she acts mean, or nasty, or cold, she can be sweet to those who win her over. It’s hard to earn her trust and respect, but once you earn it, it’s worth it, because she won’t ever desert you. When she does allow herself to love, she loves passionately.

Is that correct?

Haha. I can’t say what the appeal for others is, but for me it’s something like this: the character’s has an angry, petulant, capricious, histrionic, nasty, aloof, short tempered, etc. facade. This makes her cute already. The facade sometime breaks down temporarily when she’s exposed to certain things. This is intriguing. There is some mystery to this girl. This facade is there because of some “trauma” she endured. Like the creature in Nausicaa which bites Nausicaa, the hero can let her bite and convince her that well he’ll endure it for her sake. To draw the real out one has to show kindness and there of course has to be some genuine attraction between the hero and the character, because this is more than just platonic healing but a romantic element is also present. The tsundere learns about herself, overcomes whatever holds her back and is able to be there for the really important things - such as when choosing to save someone’s life or saving a “most precious thing” to her. (Gosick ref).

Take Victorique for instance, I’ve been rewatching some episodes lately, she has a reason to act the way she does, and the inspector-with-hairstyle is a really incredibly jerk.

Of course we don’t want her tsundere side to disappear entirely. It provides great comic relief. The process of regaining the other person’s trust is a long one. But it’s endearing to see that happen.

 

[Tenofovir]

Note that the hero has to show kindness and endure pain for the tsundere. This is not mere throwing of platitudes. The tsundere is not won over by chocolates and flattery, but is won over by true expression of love including actual hard work - practical examples of the hero doing things for her - such as risking his life or less serious but hard to endure sacrifices. Likewise for the hero, there is a prospect of winning the girl. It’s a challenge.

 

[Tenofovir]

Yes, Bones is awesome! You can almost expect high quality stuff from them! Still haven’t seen FMA (or Eureka 7 which they produced, too) yet for some reason, lol, so my favorite from them is probably Xam’d, just slightly more than Gosick; Only a little bit, though, since Xam’d, for me, had this epic, larger than life, kind of journey throughout which I really liked, coupled with such an awesome ending as well, even better than that of Gosick’s. ^.^ Although, I know that’s debatable since some people I don’t think liked or rather, understood the ending to Xam’d.

Bones is the anime producer though. Endings often depend on the author of the series, no? I guess adaptations can change that but usually even there the author gives (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Kamaduck]

Bones is the anime producer though. Endings often depend on the author of the series, no? I guess adaptations can change that but usually even there the author gives (name removed by moderator)ut.

The guarantee with Bones is that the anime will at least look amazing. The story might leave something to be desired, but the animation won’t.

I’m still thinking about Tsundere characters. I’ll get back to you guys on that, but your responses were very interesting, Tenofovir.

 

[suko]

the character’s has an angry, petulant, capricious, histrionic, nasty, aloof, short tempered, etc. facade. This makes her cute already.

But that doesn’t make any sense. All kinds of characters are cute and sweet, many of whom are not tsunderes in any sense. There has to be an appeal beyond that. I mean, if it’s purely the cute and sweet aspect of the archetype that gets people, why bother making her harsh on the outside? Why not just have her be sweet all the time? There has to be more than that, otherwise the archetype wouldn’t be so popular.

Lol, sorry, I was being a little facetious, but I think Tenofovir pretty much just nailed it here in what I quoted! There’s something about those traits that’s just really, really, really appealing for most guys, lol. It is because it just is, lol. I guess after all the hundreds of animes that have been created throughout the years, there’s a good understanding of how men think, lol, and what combination of not only personality traits, but physical traits as well, that are appealing to most guys. That’s really all there is to it, imo. And those combination of traits are what we see in the different archetypes of characters. That said, I think they do still need a nice-looking character design (to maximize their overall appeal). I don’t believe it would work very well if they had an appearance that was less than appealing, so I think it starts from there.

 

[jilly4ski]

The guarantee with Bones is that the anime will at least look amazing. The story might leave something to be desired, but the animation won’t.

I’m still thinking about Tsundere characters. I’ll get back to you guys on that, but your responses were very interesting, Tenofovir.

LOL, I am actually surprised at how much either an older style or poor animation will actually turn me off an anime.

I am not sure I can p(name removed by moderator)oint any Tsundere characters to make a judgement. Would Okami from Okami-san and her seven companions count?

In that case the violence is limited to punches on the head arm or in the nose. Nothing too bad, and a lot of it inadvertent. I guess what makes it interesting, is that these characters seem to have this tough and rough exterior, but generally nice people. But their vulnerability around the hero or male romantic interest makes them over react or act without thinking. So in essence the violence or yelling, or cold treatment is their defense mechanism to their feelings of vulnerability. Story lines which explore the why and when their defense mechanism gets triggered are the more interesting Tsundere characters and story lines.

 

[Kamaduck]

Lol, sorry, I was being a little facetious, but I think Tenofovir pretty much just nailed it here in what I quoted! There’s something about those traits that’s just really, really, really appealing for most guys, lol. It is because it just is, lol. I guess after all the hundreds of animes that have been created throughout the years, there’s a good understanding of how men think, lol, and what combination of not only personality traits, but physical traits as well, that are appealing to most guys. That’s really all there is to it, imo. And those combination of traits are what we see in the different archetypes of characters. That said, I think they do still need a nice-looking character design (to maximize their overall appeal). I don’t believe it would work very well if they had an appearance that was less than appealing, so I think it starts from there.

I doubt that a childlike or “cute” appearance is “appealing to most guys”, since standards of beauty have changed over time. What we consider beautiful seems to be partly biological/inherent and partly a social construct that changes with time and place. I’ve never really understood physical beauty in the first place, though, so I can’t really talk about it beyond a partial, weirdly academic understanding. Sorry.

Although I know that tsundere characters are always attractive (and often cute or childlike in appearance), I was under the impression that it was mainly a personality archetype. A tsundere who didn’t act cold or mean sometimes wouldn’t be a tsundere at all.

Some of what Tenofovir is saying makes sense to me- like, I understand why it’s appealing to watch one person gain another person’s trust over time, and why a character with an air of mystery or a tragic past to overcome is intriguing.

I don’t really get how “angry, petulant, capricious, histrionic, nasty, aloof, short tempered, etc.” = “cute”, or what the difference is between a constant facade and an actual personality. But honestly, that’s not bad for how things usually go. My understanding of romance may be a little overly analytical.

Maybe you guys can help me with this much- I know when my female friends like “bad boy” characters (or the Jerk with a Heart of Gold discussed upthread), they never like them because they’re rude or bad. When it isn’t purely physical, they seem to like them because of other traits- their sarcasm/rebelliousness (often in the face of illegitimate authority), their determination in the face of a tragic past, or their devotion to another character. Sometimes they’re paradoxically more sensitive and understanding than the other characters, maybe because they know what it’s like to be hurt themselves.

My question is, is the tsundere archetype like that? That you like the character because she’s able to keep going despite her past, or because of her devotion to the male lead, or because of how vulnerable she is under her exterior? Or is there something about her ineffectual anger and nastiness (even if it’s an act) that is appealing in and of itself?

 

[Kamaduck]

LOL, I am actually surprised at how much either an older style or poor animation will actually turn me off an anime.

I am not sure I can p(name removed by moderator)oint any Tsundere characters to make a judgement. Would Okami from Okami-san and her seven companions count?

In that case the violence is limited to punches on the head arm or in the nose. Nothing too bad, and a lot of it inadvertent. I guess what makes it interesting, is that these characters seem to have this tough and rough exterior, but generally nice people. But their vulnerability around the hero or male romantic interest makes them over react or act without thinking. So in essence the violence or yelling, or cold treatment is their defense mechanism to their feelings of vulnerability. Story lines which explore the why and when their defense mechanism gets triggered are the more interesting Tsundere characters and story lines.

I haven’t seen the series, but according to TV tropes she’s a textbook example. I think we’re mostly discussing what TV tropes calls “type A” (default harsh) here- I know they define “tsundere” more broadly on that site, including “type B” (default sweet) characters like Winry Rockbell and Kagome Higurashi. TV tropes doesn’t even claim the trope is female-specific (or that it only exists in anime, for that matter). What we’re discussing here seems to be much more specific though, bordering on Shana Clone.

Warning! Kamaduck does not take any responsibility for the hours upon hours you may waste on TV tropes! Click the links at your own risk!

I agree that exploring a tsundere’s past is often a worthwhile endeavor. I don’t really mind them, as long as their actions aren’t painted as acceptable. As far as violence goes, I mostly just don’t like treating violence like a joke. I usually only find it funny if there’s weird timing or something else humorous. Otherwise, I’ve never been a fan of slapstick. Clearly others disagree, though, and who am I to spoil their fun?

 

[CesarAugustus]

I doubt that a childlike or “cute” appearance is “appealing to most guys”, since standards of beauty have changed over time. What we consider beautiful seems to be partly biological/inherent and partly a social construct that changes with time and place. I’ve never really understood physical beauty in the first place, though, so I can’t really talk about it beyond a partial, weirdly academic understanding. Sorry.

Although I know that tsundere characters are always attractive (and often cute or childlike in appearance), I was under the impression that it was mainly a personality archetype. A tsundere who didn’t act cold or mean sometimes wouldn’t be a tsundere at all.

I have read that the attractive in child-like characteristics and features in women have a biological basis. Is called neoteny.

I think a big part of the appeal of the tsundere, is how the character gradually drops the aloof and capricious exterior to show a kind and tender personality. The melting process were we see her true personality reveal, after the male character wins her over.

Physically, there are at least two types of Tsunderes, the pre-Shana ones, like Eri Sawachika, that are tall, and attractive in a more mature way, and the post-Shana ones, that are small and some of them with complexes regarding their appareance, so they compare themselves with taller and more adult-looking girls. Taiga, from Toradora for example.

Whoops. I kinda forgot that Evangelion was, well, Evangelion. It’s probably not much help in this conversation.

So according to Tenofovir (unless I misunderstood him, which is always possible), the appeal of the tsundere archetype lies in her ability to “reciprocate to the strongest degree”, the fact that even though she acts mean, or nasty, or cold, she can be sweet to those who win her over. It’s hard to earn her trust and respect, but once you earn it, it’s worth it, because she won’t ever desert you. When she does allow herself to love, she loves passionately.

Is that correct?

Yes, is correct.

Asuka is an interesting case too, as an example of proto-tsundere, although her case is different. More traumas involved.

Some of what Tenofovir is saying makes sense to me- like, I understand why it’s appealing to watch one person gain another person’s trust over time, and why a character with an air of mystery or a tragic past to overcome is intriguing.

I don’t really get how “angry, petulant, capricious, histrionic, nasty, aloof, short tempered, etc.” = “cute”, or what the difference is between a constant facade and an actual personality. But honestly, that’s not bad for how things usually go. My understanding of romance may be a little overly analytical.

Maybe te cute part of these behaviors, is not these by themselves, but seeing the reactions to when these are questioned, like the blushing, denials of obvious kind gestures, etc.

Maybe you guys can help me with this much- I know when my female friends like “bad boy” characters (or the Jerk with a Heart of Gold discussed upthread), they never like them because they’re rude or bad. When it isn’t purely physical, they seem to like them because of other traits- their sarcasm/rebelliousness (often in the face of illegitimate authority), their determination in the face of a tragic past, or their devotion to another character. Sometimes they’re paradoxically more sensitive and understanding than the other characters, maybe because they know what it’s like to be hurt themselves.

My question is, is the tsundere archetype like that? That you like the character because she’s able to keep going despite her past, or because of her devotion to the male lead, or because of how vulnerable she is under her exterior? Or is there something about her ineffectual anger and nastiness (even if it’s an act) that is appealing in and of itself?

With the “bad boy” types, maybe some girls find them attractive because they want to rescue and correct these flawed characters. Also, their rude and arrogant behavior is a display of confidence.

The Tsundere archetype is different when examining the motivations of the hero, and the attractive for the audience. It could be sumed up in the process of melting. Also, the antics, blushing, comic situations they get into, are part of the attractive too.

 

[CesarAugustus]

I haven’t seen the series, but according to TV tropes she’s a textbook example. I think we’re mostly discussing what TV tropes calls “type A” (default harsh) here- I know they define “tsundere” more broadly on that site, including “type B” (default sweet) characters like Winry Rockbell and Kagome Higurashi. TV tropes doesn’t even claim the trope is female-specific (or that it only exists in anime, for that matter). What we’re discussing here seems to be much more specific though, bordering on Shana Clone.

Warning! Kamaduck does not take any responsibility for the hours upon hours you may waste on TV tropes! Click the links at your own risk!

I agree that exploring a tsundere’s past is often a worthwhile endeavor. I don’t really mind them, as long as their actions aren’t painted as acceptable. As far as violence goes, I mostly just don’t like treating violence like a joke. I usually only find it funny if there’s weird timing or something else humorous. Otherwise, I’ve never been a fan of slapstick. Clearly others disagree, though, and who am I to spoil their fun?

I was menctioning that wiki earlier, but preferred to not give the name. Is a big timewaster. Something good of that site is that they erased some sexual related pages and the descriptions of what the users found exciting. If only they would get rid of the cultural marxist and liberal indoctrination in some parts of the site…

I think the archetype is mostly female based. The male version could be the Jerk with a Hearth of Gold.

 

[Kamaduck]

I have read that the attractive in child-like characteristics and features in women have a biological basis. Is called neoteny.

I think a big part of the appeal of the tsundere, is how the character gradually drops the aloof and capricious exterior to show a kind and tender personality. The melting process were we see her true personality reveal, after the male character wins her over.

Physically, there are at least two types of Tsunderes, the pre-Shana ones, like Eri Sawachika, that are tall, and attractive in a more mature way, and the post-Shana ones, that are small and some of them with complexes regarding their appareance, so they compare themselves with taller and more adult-looking girls. Taiga, from Toradora for example.

Makes sense, although I think there’s definitely more than one body type men are attracted to. Neither gender is a monolith in that sense.

Asuka is an interesting case too, as an example of proto-tsundere, although her case is different. More traumas involved.

The whole cast was pretty much traumatized out of their minds. What I like about the handling of Asuka, though, is that her negative traits aren’t glossed over or ignored. They’re actual flaws, and while they’re understandable, they’re not really played for cuteness.

Maybe te cute part of these behaviors, is not these by themselves, but seeing the reactions to when these are questioned, like the blushing, denials of obvious kind gestures, etc.

That would make sense, yeah.

With the “bad boy” types, maybe some girls find them attractive because they want to rescue and correct these flawed characters. Also, their rude and arrogant behavior is a display of confidence.

The Tsundere archetype is different when examining the motivations of the hero, and the attractive for the audience. It could be sumed up in the process of melting. Also, the antics, blushing, comic situations they get into, are part of the attractive too.

It’s possible that I’m just hanging out with some weird girls (I don’t exactly pick my friends for their adherence to social norms ), but I’ve never heard them talk about a male character being likable for his rudeness, arrogance, or even his confidence. If you walk over to our lunch table, you’re much more likely to hear us talking about how they’re so precious and we want to give them hugs- and that can be for any character who’s gone through trauma, or who is weak in basically any way (and especially if they fight their weakness and keep standing up). Some of it is a fantasy involving mutual rescue, but on the other hand, I think we also tend to like the male characters who we can empathize with and understand. A vulnerable character, either emotionally or physically, is probably more appealing than one that doesn’t need any sort of help at all.

I mean, I don’t think girls are any more a monolith than guys are, in terms of what personalities or body types they like. But I’d be wary of the whole “girls like jerks because they’re confident” thing. I’m sure it exists, but I’ve never seen it in real life, soooo… It’s probably not as common as people think it is. And it’s definitely not the dominant force among us nerds.

 

[Kamaduck]

I was menctioning that wiki earlier, but preferred to not give the name. Is a big timewaster. Something good of that site is that they erased some sexual related pages and the descriptions of what the users found exciting. If only they would get rid of the cultural marxist and liberal indoctrination in some parts of the site…

I’m glad they cleaned it up, too. The site’s not perfect, but it’s a great place for tracking trends and techniques used in fiction. I don’t regret the hours I’ve spent on it, as it’s a much more educational and analysis-friendly site than most of the other fan havens I’ve seen.

EDIT: I mean, even if it was a waste of time, I had fun! And that’s why I do a lot of things (like watching anime) in the first place, so it wasn’t a total waste. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I think the archetype is mostly female based. The male version could be the Jerk with a Hearth of Gold.

I agree, although I could maybe see how someone like, say, Kyo from Fruits Basket could be a male tsundere who is also a Jerk with a Heart of Gold. He’s not socially confident, he’s experienced trauma and has a dark past filled with abuse, he often deals with his emotions by denying them or yelling, is easily flustered and is arguably pretty cute when it happens, and is slowly transformed through the efforts of Tohru Honda, who accepts him as he is. He may not be a perfect fit, but he’s pretty close to a male equivalent, so I can see how there could be some overlap.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Makes sense, although I think there’s definitely more than one body type men are attracted to. Neither gender is a monolith in that sense.

Neoteny tends to work more at the level of faces. Personally, I prefer the use of the word sex instead of gender, because gender ideology.

The whole cast was pretty much traumatized out of their minds. What I like about the handling of Asuka, though, is that her negative traits aren’t glossed over or ignored. They’re actual flaws, and while they’re understandable, they’re not really played for cuteness.

Yes, the moe phenomenon is not played straight in Evangelion.

That would make sense, yeah.

Yes, is not these behaviors per se, but what is around these.

It’s possible that I’m just hanging out with some weird girls (I don’t exactly pick my friends for their adherence to social norms ), but I’ve never heard them talk about a male character being likable for his rudeness, arrogance, or even his confidence. If you walk over to our lunch table, you’re much more likely to hear us talking about how they’re so precious and we want to give them hugs- and that can be for any character who’s gone through trauma. Some of it is a fantasy involving mutual rescue, but on the other hand, I think we also tend to like the male characters who we can empathize with and understand. A vulnerable character, either emotionally or physically, is probably more appealing than one that doesn’t need any sort of help at all.

I mean, I don’t think girls are any more a monolith than guys are, in terms of what personalities or body types they like. But I’d be wary of the whole “girls like jerks because they’re confident” thing. I’m sure it exists, but I’ve never seen it in real life, soooo… It’s probably not as common as people think it is. And it’s definitely not the dominant force among us nerds.

When speaking of confidence, is that confidence is what is perceived when people have behaviors in the range from just outgoing or extroverted to rude and harsh. I don’t think many people like arrogance and bad personalities in itself.

The rescuing part is what your are describing about your friends. There is the idealization of flaws too. Something many nerdy girls indulge into. Related to the popularity of contemporary villians. More on that could be explored. I see a relation, to the abandonment and dissing of virtues, but that is another topic.

About “girls like jerks because they’re confident”, is something I’ve seen in person.

Certainly with nerds there are other things going on. Like, in some cases, certain traumas, the consequences of social isolation in some parts of life, and the tendency to gravitate towards certain ideologies. A interesting topic to study. I’ve had the privilege of sorts, to interact with a varied range of people, having friends and acquaintances from various social environments, attitudes towards life and ideologies. There are certain things that I have perceived among nerds and geeks (the belief that their tastes are like High Culture being one of them) that has helped me gain insights about the influence of art and entertainment in people, and specially, the more dedicated to their entertainment or cultural interests.

As you say, in these groups the dynamics about what is appealing or attractive tend to vary a bit.

 

[Kamaduck]

When speaking of confidence, is that confidence is what is perceived when people have behaviors in the range from just outgoing or extroverted to rude and harsh. I don’t think many people like arrogance and bad personalities in itself.

The rescuing part is what your are describing about your friends. There is the idealization of flaws too. Something many nerdy girls indulge into. Related to the popularity of contemporary villians. More on that could be explored. I see a relation, to the abandonment and dissing of virtues, but that is another topic.

We can go onto other topics. For behold, this is a thread for all anime-related things, and we have free reign within it! Bwahahaha!

The idealization of flaws is a part of it, but only certain types of flaws. And it’s not entirely because of flaws, as I said before. It’s just… We like characters that feel human. I, personally, like characters that I can identify with, and that’s just as often due to negative characteristics as positive ones.

The last time I had a conversation with an IRL friend that consisted mostly of gushing about a male anime character, the consensus was that Tamaki Suoh from Ouran was the “ideal man” because he was a lovable idiot who nevertheless cared deeply about his friends and love interest. We weren’t really serious, but I think there’s a certain amount to be said for liking flawed characters who struggle to overcome their flaws. He’s an idiot who needs to be taken care of to an extent- it’s not that he’s helpless, but he certainly doesn’t always know what to do. And neither do we, but we like the idea of working together to figure it out.

Applying the idea to a more “bad boy” character- say Prince Zuko (I know ATLA isn’t anime, but it’s the first thing that came to mind)- nobody likes him because he’s proud or rude or cruel. They like him because he tries really hard to be good. Because he’s already failed once and is trying to get back up. Because his determination is admirable. And sometimes, paradoxically, because he can be really dorky and the opposite of cool. Because his flaws and awkwardness make him human, instead of being a boring “perfect” guy.

So in that sense, yeah, we definitely idealize flaws. Not always moral flaws, but that’s part of it. You know, it’s kind of funny, because on the Twilight thread they’re discussing whether women have a right to think about “perfect” men in the first place. But why would you want to read about a perfect person? You won’t be able to relate to them, nor they with you. You won’t be able to work together to solve problems, or grow stronger alongside them. You’ll always be dead weight, and I don’t think too many people like that idea.

About “girls like jerks because they’re confident”, is something I’ve seen in person.

I don’t doubt it, but that’s definitely not the only reason for liking “jerk” characters, or even villains. I guess I’m just saying that theories are fine (and good! And fun!), but this one doesn’t offer the entire picture.

Certainly with nerds there are other things going one. Like traumas, the consequences of social isolation in some parts of life, and the tendency to gravitate towards certain ideologies. A interesting topic to study. I’ve had the privilege of sorts, to interact with a varied range of people, having friends and acquaintances from various social environments, attitudes towards life and ideologies. There are certain things that I have perceived among nerds and geeks (the belief that their tastes are like High Culture being one of them) that has helped me gain insights about the influence of art and entertainment in people, and specially, the more dedicated to their entertainment or cultural interests.

Haha, well, I wouldn’t say we’re participating in “high culture”. But it is culture, or at least a subculture, and it sure is fun to analyze!

Or just gush about. However we’re feeling that day.

 

[ironchapman]

Well, I have begun my trek through the Winter 2014 anime season. I missed the debut of Space Dandy on Toonami, so I’ll have to catch it on Funimation’s website at some point. I have watched Tonari no Seki-kun/Seki-kun, the Master of Killing Time. A good short. I also watched the first episode of the new Seitokai Yakuindomo, which has very very little fanservice for all of the dirty jokes. I don’t know if I’ll continue it, though. Nobunagun is fun, but then again, why wouldn’t a show about a teenage girl firing her right arm automatic cannon at aliens while a legendary Japanese general cackles in her eyes be awesome? The ED is also awesome. Very metal.

Up next are Noragami; that show about the pilot and the girl; the Space Dandy; the new Chunibyo; D-Frag; No-Rin; Inari, Konkon, Koi Iroha; Houzuki no Reitetsu; Strange+; Witch Craft Works; Magical Warfare; the new Wooser; Engaged to the Unidentified; and Hamatora.

 

[Tenofovir]

I have read that the attractive in child-like characteristics and features in women have a biological basis. Is called neoteny.

Like the kawaii (cute) act of many Japanese women?

I think a big part of the appeal of the tsundere, is how the character gradually drops the aloof and capricious exterior to show a kind and tender personality. The melting process were we see her true personality reveal, after the male character wins her over.

That’s one part of it. But the tsundere has to be a good person inside and perhaps responding either with a facade or genuinely responding in a nasty way because that’s the only way she knows. I think the attraction is on many levels but one here is that yes there is this rough diamond who especially because of something nasty happening in the past (e.g. Victorique) is acting this way. But it’s an act or it’s an involuntary response to the love interest. It can be overcome. The more damaged the character, the more one wants her to get better. It’s not as if she’s just a capricious cow… but she can’t helping being so, or we understand why she puts up the act. (The act either being voluntary or involuntary on a subconscious level.)

Physically, there are at least two types of Tsunderes, the pre-Shana ones, like Eri Sawachika, that are tall, and attractive in a more mature way, and the post-Shana ones, that are small and some of them with complexes regarding their appareance, so they compare themselves with taller and more adult-looking girls. Taiga, from Toradora for example.

Pre-Shana ones like Naru Narusegawa? Or Ryoko from Tenchi Muyo?

Of course the short, child like tsundere is also endearing, just for being that. One can justify a child acting like a brat and one can empathise with such anime characters.

 

[Tenofovir]

LOL, I am actually surprised at how much either an older style or poor animation will actually turn me off an anime.

I am not sure I can p(name removed by moderator)oint any Tsundere characters to make a judgement. Would Okami from Okami-san and her seven companions count?

In that case the violence is limited to punches on the head arm or in the nose. Nothing too bad, and a lot of it inadvertent. I guess what makes it interesting, is that these characters seem to have this tough and rough exterior, but generally nice people. But their vulnerability around the hero or male romantic interest makes them over react or act without thinking. So in essence the violence or yelling, or cold treatment is their defense mechanism to their feelings of vulnerability. Story lines which explore the why and when their defense mechanism gets triggered are the more interesting Tsundere characters and story lines.

Yes Okami is a tsundere. Her back story is also pretty traumatic.

In Okami-san and her 7 Companions, a much under-appreciated show, that back story is explored a bit. We’re never really told what happened to her but we can imagine it was something very evil concerning the blonde/silver haired guy. We end up seeing that Okami is very weak after all yet her resolve, like the resolve of the nameless punk hero of the story (he has a name, not that I care to remember it) are worth appreciation. Some people may find response to a weakness as pity, I don’t.