Annulment Support

[Seatuck]

Here’s my question. What if one married a non-Catholic, never lived with her, and divorced nine months later. Now, the other person is Catholic. He, however, was very lapsed in the Church and didn’t know all the rules. He didn’t know that an annulment was necessary. In the meantime he civilly remarried. So, that marriage would be invalid and the two would be living in mortal sin? If an annulment were granted would they have to have a wedding ceremony in the Church or a convalidation?

Questions such as this should always be taken to a living breathing priest to get the accurate answers and get things moving to correct them.

All Catholics are required to meet certain obligations in order to be married and have that marriage seen as valid. Both people must be free to marry, marriage preparation must take place, the ceremony must take place in a suitable place etc.

If any of those were not done then most likely the marriage is not valid but an anullment case must be opened and the paper work done anyway. It seems that from the information above this is a simple documentary case . The second marriage is also invalid and yes , apperars to be leading to mortal sin. I would encourage this person to go to a Priest and start things rolling.

There may be other issues that need to be addressed as well such as confirmation.

 

[Seatuck]

Brothers/Sisters

The preface I had here disappeared. And I am to exhausted to redo it. So I have just laid out the “facts” below. From it you can hopefully tell that the two questions I need answered are: Am I barred from the Sacraments and; must I place the either/or question to my current wife. Any and all help would be so greatly appreciated. Praying for Gods Grace, Perfect Love and, Infinite Mercy . . . fallguyOIF.

BTW, this was submitted to the AAA forum but received know response as it was probably either to long, convoluted or both. Praying I did a better job

I left the Church long ago. I now know that was very wrong. I want to return to the Church and the Sacraments (Reconciliation & Communion) but, while I was gone, I married a non-Catholic woman in a civil wedding. That marriage was dissolved in a civil divorce. I am currently married (for 28 years in Feb.) to another non-Catholic woman, again in a civil ceremony. I now understand that my 2nd marriage is not valid until I seek and receive an annulment from my first marriage (I believe it can be proved that at least some of the essential elements for a valid marriage were lacking) AND then have my current marriage blest (?convalidation?) by the Church. So far, probably doable, though there are some doubts by my Presbyterian wife.
But, I have now heard from more than one priest and a learned RCIA instructor that I may even have a bigger problem, as my non-Catholic wife was twice previously married to, non-Catholic men. I’m not sure that the religions of my wife or her Ex’s makes that much of a difference, but what does make a difference is that the Church does not recognize the divorce/?divorces? from her first (or first and second) husband(s). The implications appear to be that before I can even have a chance of returning to the Church and Sacraments, I must EITHER ask my wife to seek an annulment(s) from her first (or first and second) husband(s) OR I must ask my wife for a divorce.
I think I understand what is going on here. I committed adultery when I slept with a woman other than my first wife, even though divorced under “Caesars” law. And while I may/did/do commit adultery against my divorced wife when/if I sleep with my current wife I’ve compounded the whole mess because I continue to also commit adultery against my wife’s divorced husband(s). I know that ignorance is no excuse for Sins against Gods or mans law. I am constantly asking for Gods mercy and forgiveness for these and the many other Sins I have committed since I turned away from God over 40 years ago. I am so terribly sorry for all of those wrongs and I pray that I will have the strength to make the necessary amends. In my heart and Soul, I do believe that God forgives me and look so much for the day when the Church to can give me absolution.
The answer I so much need right now is whether or not I need to put the question: annulment or divorce to my wife in order of having any chance of returning to Gods Church and the Holy Sacraments. The proposition is almost unbearably painful, especially as I think I might know what her response will be. An option to try and forget the whole thing is not even on the table. I say the Apostles Creed every day and I truly believe every single word I say from it. I just keep reminding myself that the pain that I suffer now and may even suffer more dearly if/when I put the question, would really be very small price to pay for what I would ultimately receive from doing so. But before I do, I just want to know that these are questions that must be asked.

You are correct all the attempted marriages on both sides must be examined for validity. The first step is of course to go seek out a Priest.

You seem to know what you must do and you should pray and I will pray for the grace and fortitude to see this through. There may be some pastoral options for you along the way that only your priest/confessor can offer you. Such as living as brother and sister etc.

You might consider calling the Apologists Line on a day Father Serpa is there. But in reality , the best thing to do is get thee to your Catholic parish and make an appointment to see the priest. You could also begin attending Mass every Sunday but of course do not present yourself for the Eucharist.You may get strength from this. You are correct about not being able to recieve absolution at present but as I said there may be some pastoral solutions for you depending upon your marital situation.

Peace be with you and Be Not Afraid as the previous Holy Father was fond of saying.

 

[dulcissima]

Do definitely talk to a priest to get the ball rolling on this fallguyOIF. From my take on what you have presented…you can talk to your priest about how to seek a nullity for your first marriage based on lack of form, since you were a Catholic who didn’t marry in the Church. That is fairly simple and straight forward. Your wife’s situation is more difficult, but still something that you and she should be able to work your through. If you know the particulars of your wife’s previous marriages, especially the first, your priest can give you a good idea if there are likely grounds for an annulment there. You might also want to ask your priest about the internal forum solution…that might be a solution for your present situation until the validity of previous marriages becomes known.

 

[rpp]

On Friday, I received the letter from the Tribunal. It was the first instance judgment. They determined that my marriage was not valid.

Another diocese tribunal must review this. This is known as the second instance. If they agree, then my marriage will be declared null.

I submitted my documentation in early March of 2006. At that time, I was told it would take 18 to 24 months. I am surprised that I received the first instance decision so quickly. I am also more than a little relieved.

I noticed a factual error, probably a typo, in what I posted.

Note the date in bold above. The correct date is March 2007. Sorry about that.

 

[rpp]

rpp -
I want to say congratulations, but that doesn’t seem quite right. (It is just hard to be “happy” about annulment!) But, given the circumstances, it is great news that the first judgement has determined that your marriage was not valid. As you said, I’m sure this is a great relief. I will keep you in my thoughts as your petietion goes to the second tribunal. Your “light at the end of the tunnel” is drawing ever closer.

I, too, have received news since my first post. Basically, the letter I received from the tribunal notified me that my case is “on the judge’s desk”. I’m not really sure what that means but it is another marker that my case is moving forward, which is all I can ask for at this point. I have hit the one year mark since submitting my petition, so I hope to be close to the end.

It seems as though annulment statistics are the cause of much debate. I wonder if there is any information floating around about the difference between first and second judgements. I know that nothing is ever absolute, and annulments are not a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination, but I wonder what the statistics would show about second judgements being in-line (or not) with the first judgement.

I will keep you in my thoughts.

Yes, congratulations is not correct, yet it is not wrong either. Kind of hard to explain my feelings.

As for the the times that the second instance was different than the first, I have no information. I suspect it is fairly uncommon. I would be curious, in an intellectual way, to know, however.

One thing that is important to state about annulments. As long as the petitioner or the respondent (former spouses) do not lie or ask their witnesses to lie, then whatever judgment the tribunal reaches is the responsibility of the tribunal. The former spouses carry no guilt, even if the tribunal arrived at the decision incorrectly or even illicitly.

Now, if someone does lie or withhold important information, then that person would carry the guilt not just for the lie, but the ultimate consequences of what happens after the tribunal makes its judgment.

 

[fallguyOIF]

For your responses to my (fallguyOIF) post:

Thank you Seatuck and dulcissima for your kind and thoughtful answers. I had been talking to my Mom’s parish Priest about returning when I learned about our “validity” problems. I then told him about what I had found. He didn’t respond DIRECTLY to my concerns, but rather Blest me and said, I want you first to pray long and hard (I asked if 40 days and nights in the desert might work, to which he said, that might do it ) as I will be praying, too. Second, you need to watch out (or be very careful?) because the Devil knows he is at risk of losing a Soul and he (here I use the little “h”) will pull out all of the stops to get you to ?turn your head again? (or something like that) and we would talk again when I came down to see my Mom again.

Praying I have, praying I am, Praying I will and anyone who will Pray for or with me is forever appreciated. Because, Father Bob was right on in his warning; since I’ve been back from my Mom’s, everything that can go wrong has gone wrong (every time a “wrong” thought tries to wedge itself into my mind, I say a Hail Mary and given the number of times I’ve had to say this Prayer, well, they don’t make Rosaries with that many beads). I hope you pardon me for the apparent levity, but these are really some of my darkest days and even darker nights.

Again, thank you all. I am not giving up. There is still one part of my question that no one has directly addressed. Putting all else aside for a moment: Will I have to leave my wife (ask her for a divorce) if she refuses to seek an annulment(s) from her former husband(s)???
God Have Mercy

 

[dulcissima]

There is still one part of my question that no one has directly addressed. Putting all else aside for a moment: Will I have to leave my wife (ask her for a divorce) if she refuses to seek an annulment(s) from her former husband(s)???
God Have Mercy

I mentioned the internal forum solution, which is something you should discuss with your priest. Here is the best description I have seen, which comes from the blog of a CAF member:

itsjustdave1988.blogspot.com/2005/05/internal-forum-solution-instead-of.html

You and your wife can count on my prayers! It sounds like you have the right frame of mind.

 

[Seatuck]

For your responses to my (fallguyOIF) post:

Thank you Seatuck and dulcissima for your kind and thoughtful answers. I had been talking to my Mom’s parish Priest about returning when I learned about our “validity” problems. I then told him about what I had found. He didn’t respond DIRECTLY to my concerns, but rather Blest me and said, I want you first to pray long and hard (I asked if 40 days and nights in the desert might work, to which he said, that might do it ) as I will be praying, too. Second, you need to watch out (or be very careful?) because the Devil knows he is at risk of losing a Soul and he (here I use the little “h”) will pull out all of the stops to get you to ?turn your head again? (or something like that) and we would talk again when I came down to see my Mom again.

Praying I have, praying I am, Praying I will and anyone who will Pray for or with me is forever appreciated. Because, Father Bob was right on in his warning; since I’ve been back from my Mom’s, everything that can go wrong has gone wrong (every time a “wrong” thought tries to wedge itself into my mind, I say a Hail Mary and given the number of times I’ve had to say this Prayer, well, they don’t make Rosaries with that many beads). I hope you pardon me for the apparent levity, but these are really some of my darkest days and even darker nights.

Again, thank you all. I am not giving up. There is still one part of my question that no one has directly addressed. Putting all else aside for a moment: Will I have to leave my wife (ask her for a divorce) if she refuses to seek an annulment(s) from her former husband(s)???
God Have Mercy

This is one of those things that you will guidance and pastoral consultation on. I did get at this with my live as brother and sister comment. You may yourself get convicted that you need to separate but I don’t think the church would insist on it.

 

[Seatuck]

I mentioned the internal forum solution, which is something you should discuss with your priest. Here is the best description I have seen, which comes from the blog of a CAF member:

itsjustdave1988.blogspot.com/2005/05/internal-forum-solution-instead-of.html

You and your wife can count on my prayers! It sounds like you have the right frame of mind.

I admit at first I was distressed you brought this up. I hear so much abuse of it that it just reminds me that some topics are really dangerous for laymen to take it upon themselves to discuss. However the explanation you provided is a good one. Whew!

 

[Chatter163]

Reviews by courts of second instance are, for the most part, summary reviews intended to catch procedural or other glaring oversights. In most cases courts of second instance issue their judgments within thirty days.

 

[NoelFahey]

I’m going through the annulment process with the Diocese of Arlington, VA. It has been more than 2 years of waiting. I’m waiting at this point of the Defender of the Bond to write a brief. The amount of time it has taken, is a cause of frustration. Yet, I know that God has my good in mind and I trust His plan. I’m glad to see that other people have been willing to share their experiences. You are in my prayers.

 

[OmniDIYer]

FNS:

I live in Maryland and petitioned the Archdiocese of Washington for an annulment in late March 2006. My declaration of nullity was granted on 23 December 2006–just about 10 months.

During that time, the priest to whom my case was assigned as my advocate had a stroke and there was a LOT of confusion about the process of the case.

What I can tell you is that I called EVERY WEEK–the receptionist knew me by voice after a while–to inquire politely about the status. When I got a letter from the priest in charge of the Tribunal that suggested I had the right to withdraw my petition and submit it one of the other two venues (Raleigh, NC, where we were married, or San Diego, CA, where the ex now lived with his mistress), I called the Bishop’s office and asked if someone could explain to me what the process for this was. I got calls back from the Tribunal office promptly and was scheduled for an interview a week later.

Among the things that make the process take a long time:

• Ex who can’t be contacted/reached (he has to sign for the certified letter they send, inviting him to participate in the process);
• Ex who refuses to participate (which requires a 30-day waiting period before the process can continue)
• Ex who wants to participate but doesn’t keep appointments;
• Witnesses that don’t keep appointments or otherwise are hard to reach;
• Witnesses who don’t know enough to be of help;
• YOUR failure to respond promptly when they contact you.

When I went in for my interview, I was told that the “hold up” was that my ex had been contacted and they had to give him 30 days to respond–which he didn’t do. He had told me he was going to participate, to attempt to derail the annulment to keep me from “saying awful things about him.” When I got scheduled for my interview, I notified my witnesses and asked them to be available by phone. One of my witnesses is a surgeon in a city across the country from mine, and she had to clear her appointment calendar for an hour and notify her secretary to allow ONLY this call to come in. After two of my three witnesses had been contacted, the priests came back to me and said, “We’ve just set a new land-speed record here. We’ve never been able to have witnesses available so readily and be so articulate and cooperative in helping us establish what we need to know.”

My interview was supposed to last two hours. The priests interviewed me and two of my three witnesses and decided they had what they needed in FORTY-FIVE MINUTES.

So, part of the reason for the delay is certainly caseload, but part of it is your ability to make things happen promptly when they are ready to proceed. You have to take responsibility for moving this process along–being proactive is certainly why my annulment took less than the typical year that I was told to expect.

Feel free to contact me directly if you would like additional information about my experience.

Omni

 

[agp2176]

Hi everyone

I am happy to find a place to discuss the annulment process. I’m looking for some support, advise, etc about everything that is about to transpire. Let me begin with some background/ facts.

My wife and are were married last year in a civil ceremony
She is from Canada, I’m from the USA.
She was previously married in the 80s and divorced in the 90s, and then lived with someone for 10 years
Her first marriage was NOT in a Catholic church
She was baptised Anglican and became a Catholic in 2007
Her ex-husnband was not baptised and is an atheist
I am a cradle Catholic
I was married in 1994, but not in the Catholic church. I did NOT seek dispensation from form. I was divorced in 1996.
We are living celibately.

So those are the facts. I understand that mine will be summary in nature. I have presented my advocate with my baptismal certificate, record of first marriage, and divorce decree. How long should mine take?

In my wife’s case, the advocate has said that he may need to see if the period of time she spent living with someone is considered a common law marriage. If so, I woud assume that it would be a summary annulment also. However, our biggest concern is the annulment of the first marriage. She does not have an address or phone number for her first husband. We will try to use his parents address. There is the very real possibility that he will do one of two things a) refuse to co-operate and not return any of the forms, or b) return the forms with a huge expletive written on them or be otherwise rude.

Now I realise that I am just seeking informed opinion and that no one here (well maybe no one) is a canon lawyer, so I just wonder what we can expect.

We both seek your prayers

In Christ’s Love

Tony

 

[nypiegirl]

I guess I really have a lot more catching up to do than I thought.

I was born and raised in a catholic family. I attended service regularly until the age of 14; at which point I simply stopped attending, aside from Christmas and Easter. I am currently 26 years old and a graduate student in New York City.

Before I moved here in August of 2007 I separated from my husband who was an adulterer, as well as someone who had concealed his drug use from me for the 5 years we had been together (including the three we were married). Since our separation we have subsequently divorced. Although I have no plans for marriage in the immediate future, I would hope that someday I could remarry. My first marriage ceremony was an outdoor one attended by a minister of the Seventh Day Adventists. This Minister was the uncle of my ex-husband. My ex-husband also led me to believe he was more religiously faithful than he actually was. When I asked him to attend regular mass, or even a holiday mass, he would always decline, citing his disbelief in God. Additionally, and to make matters worse, he did not want to welcome children into our family and instead of coming out and telling me this, he would avoid intercourse alltogether. This went on for months and years until it was more prudent for him (at least he felt) to sleep with another woman.

As a Catholic, I should have known better than to go along with being married anywhere else other than the church, but I was young and my ex-husband was very adamant about being married by his uncle. Regardless of all this, I do honestly believe that he deceived me in many, many ways.

I guess the question I have to pose here is this: Where do I begin the process of anullment? Since I am now living away from my home parish I assume that I must formally join a parish here in New York. However, whom do I speak with regarding taking the proper steps to annul my previous marriage? I am quite sensitive about the subject as I feel rather embarrassed about so much of it, but in particular my absense from the church for so long. This year I couldn’t even bring myself to attend mass during Christmas, as I felt as though I didn’t deserve to be there after failing in my marriage (even though I do recognize the problems were mainly my ex’s doing).

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[dulcissima]

Talk to the priest of your neighborhood parish. From what you describe here, if you were a Catholic and married outside the Church without a dispensation, then you most likely would have a lack of form case which would be quite easy to annul. Your priest can help you with this. Don’t be emabarrassed. If you go to him, this is just the kind of thing he would love to help you with so that he can welcome you back home.

 

[janw]

I hope this has not been covered in this thread.

What about a couple who have been married over 20 years, both with previous marriages when thay were very young. God leads them to the CC. Should they not continue with a sexual relationship in their marriage while the annulment is pending?

I really don’t understand why it takes so long to get the annulment.

 

[Ruthie]

Should they not continue with a sexual relationship in their marriage while the annulment is pending?

It depends. Which is more important to them - sex, or being together in Heaven? Seriously. My DH and I chose each other’s souls over our desires.

I really don’t understand why it takes so long to get the annulment.

Well, the divorce rate in the Church is the same as the average. Each Marriage Tribunal has a ***lot ***of cases to deal with. Add to that, the response time of the witnesses, which can be long. Add in a little procrastination on your part, and it can take two years, like mine did. (Mine was especially difficult, as there was only one witness, and I was lucky to find him. I was also lucky to find my ex! There were 36 years between my first wedding and my conversion!)

Ruthie

 

[mja2]

Catholic (light)- missing Mass, rare confessions, and the big one>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ANNULMENTS. …Til death do us part, remember that one?.. even if you are a drunk, and adulterer, infirm, psychotic, impotent, shiftless and lazy, et cetera… for better or for worse… oh wait I made a mistake… if you wan’t an annulment become a protestant… Catholic… THE HARD RELIGION… (pre Vatican 2) of course.

 

[JulianN]

Catholic (light)- missing Mass, rare confessions, and the big one>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ANNULMENTS. …Til death do us part, remember that one?.. even if you are a drunk, and adulterer, infirm, psychotic, impotent, shiftless and lazy, et cetera… for better or for worse… oh wait I made a mistake… if you wan’t an annulment become a protestant… Catholic… THE HARD RELIGION… (pre Vatican 2) of course.

I’m confused; are you saying that you disagree with the church’s teachings on annulments?

 

[mja2]

no annulments period! Catholic… it means something.