Annulments/support group

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I just remembered that when you get an e-mail or letter from the Tribunal it will be from an important person who is processing your application. Contact that person for more information. Several people/workers are envolved in processing your annulment application.
La Lucia
 
This is an excellent topic and thank for starting it particularly as the Synod on Family Life has just concluded the deliberations of the first phase.i believe the basis for an annulment is that contractual obligations to a Marriage in a Catholic Church was not fulfilled by one party.The annulment body will take the view that the Marriage was not a valid one if those conditions are not met.I do not think that adultery by one partner is a condition for annulment and so is incompatibility.In my view the annulment body should expand the guidelines and conditions that qualify for annulment and make it more lenient. If an annulment is not granted does the Church expect the healthy young person to be celibate for the rest of his life? He or she could meet a partner fall in love and then what does he or she do. I have been following the Synod and one important aspect which came out was that we should be merciful to the sinner and how do we do that.There is a book on “Mercy” written by Cardinal Kasper from Germany who is now retired in which he advocates greater leniency. for example if a couple is unable to get an annulment and marries in a civil ceremony he says a priest should monitor the marriage for a period and if it is stable should allow them to receive the sacraments. Cardinal Kespar was one of the people who addressed the members of the Synod. Of course the Conservative Bishops rejected the proposal but Pope Francis has called him an excellent Theologian. In the light of the discussions at the Synod we could expect a more liberal approach from the Church.
 
LaLucia said:
Hello Jean, I think it is better to call the Judge’s office. You will get quick information from his office clerk. They can give you lots of information. For example the judge could be out of town on a vacation, they may be able to tell what your number is on the list, etc.
I remember how I used to get lots of info. from the person that would answer the phone. The people I talked with were very helpful. I remember one time I talked with a Nun who was very helpful. Plus, I received a better answer on a e-mail that I received.

Be prepared to ask questions on what level you are in your processing of your application.

Be sure to get that person’s name so you can stay in touch because as time passes and you keep proceeding ahead you can ask more questions on the process as you advance.

As time passes you will get new names to remember so you can call them. I remember the last person I talked with was an office clerk who was very nice and had the final information on what was the final process of my granting of my annulment.

I fit under the Canon Law code of : Defect of Consent.

A friend of mine said if you are having lots of problems and can afford a Canon Lawyer you will have a better chance of getting processed faster and possibly approved. I always think positive and I hope you get results soon before the major Holidays coming up. Holidays can slow down the process. La Lucia
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Thank you so much for your advice!
 
sheteaches said:
I’m glad that I found this thread. After all, this topic is exactly why I even came here. When I first began the annulment process, I was still in disbelief that I was getting a divorce in the first place. I couldn’t believe I had become that person. It was a huge blow to my self-esteem. This whole process is super emotional.

I fully realize that church does not HAVE to even investigate marriage validity. She could just presume all that who marry do so validly. I am grateful for the opportunity that the church is giving me by investigating and finding out if, in fact, family life is in my future. I married extremely young (21). Without going into the details, I am not here to discuss whether or not I have a valid marriage; I am more upset with the way in which annulments are processed in my diocese, and for all I know, in many of your dioceses.

Maybe it’s my personality, I don’t know, but I like to stay on top of things. This goes for all parts of my life. I’m organized and feel easily stressed when things linger. When I began this annulment process, I had no idea how silent things would be. You pour over every ounce of your life filling out the questionnaire. You prayerfully consider each question and try to elaborate and explain everything. That part of the process was so therapeutic. But once everything is sent out, days, weeks, months go by without hearing anything! I found out several months down the road that my witnesses’ testimony and my responses just sat on a desk because there were no personnel available to format the transcription. Basically, I found out there is someone who organizes all of the testimony into a certain format. MONTHS! MONTHS! MONTHS went by like this. If this is the case, I would have wanted to know. I need to know for my own sanity at what process everything is. It helps me to be patient. I e-mailed the lady at our diocese who is responsible for handling the annulments. I expressed to her that I was just wanting to know at what point in the process everything was in–had my witnesses all responded? Did I need to gently remind them to get their questions in?

She flat out ignored my e-mails at first. I e-mailed again and it was very short, to-the-point responses.

My patience dwindled.

People leave the church over stuff like this. They get frustrated, impatient, and eventually become bitter over time. I knew that I could not allow myself to become like this. I had to be patient and allow the necessary time to take place. AND, I am. I was. I did. But, this business of being the dark and ill-informed about the process is unacceptable.

This is my life. This is my future. I do not like not being able to know what is taking place. I feel like we have the right to understand our case and the process. If I want to e-mail every week (which I wouldn’t do), I should get a response.

I know that they are handling several cases. But how important is it to my diocese that I not pick up and leave because I feel so alone, so lost about what is happening in my life if they employ people who are unwilling to help me keep abreast of one of the most important decisions in my life!

Regardless of the final out, I feel like I just want to know the ball is actually rolling. And, this is impossible if you are shut out of your own case.

Am I just crazy? Am I just too high maintenance?

I’m growing very frustrated. I check the mail box everyday wanting to know SOMETHING. It’s been over a year.

I just expected more.

I won’t every leave the church, but I completely understand why some people cannot take this process.
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Thank you for your excellent post.I truly admire your patience and your faith.It must be disheartening when no one is bothered about your predicament.Is it not possible to talk to your Parish Priest and enlist his help.Surely someone in the Church hierarchy will be able to help.Annulment must be coming under the administration of a priest or a Bishop.?
 
Hello Antonabe, The reason it takes so long in getting an annulment is because there could be hundreds of cases and the Tribunal office may not have enough workers to process the paper work in a timely manner. The cases go through several offices and workers who process them.

My advise is to use the TELEPHONE to find out where the case papers are at and what is the next step. I am in Los Angeles county that works together with Orange county. Once the case gets to the Tribunal Office in Orange county it is a great sign that the person will get their case/annulment approved.
I was one of those people that would get angry and upset at how long it was taking to process my case. It took approx. almost 2yrs.

E-MAILS don’t work as well as TELEPHONES because they can be over-looked or they can be read when they feel like it or take time to answer an e-mail. With a phone call you get an answer immediately.

Priests don’t really like to get envovled because they can’t rush your case when there may be 300 cases ahead of a person who just applied. They also get stressed out by knowing they really don’t have any power to rush your case and they also feel bad for you.
My own priest wanted to cry when he heard my true sad story about my life and marriage.

People have to learn to wait months and months. That is what I had to do. LaLucia
 
Thank you for your message.It is quite likely that due to the volume of applications for annulments there is a delay. But in this era of technological advancement a system could be devised perhaps by having multiple tribunals to reduce the delay. It is a human problem as some will not be as patient as you were. The fundamentalist will tell them to come over and worship at their church and if the faith is not strong they will move over. We cannot afford to lose souls. The principal focus should be mercy for the applicant who goes through a great deal of stress first the bad marriage and then the annulment process. The answer is create a better system and simplify it .I agree with you in the present system it will take a long time. You are doing a great job I suggest that you summarise the responses received and forward a report to a person of authority in the Church perhaps the Archbishop. His Lordship Archbishop Capuch the newly appointed one is said to be very receptive and will think out of the box and devise a change in the system.
 
Oh Nic1099!!!

Get thee to VEGAS right away.
Have a nice reception later on.
Then convalidate.

Don’t let him mess you up any more!
In my prayers.
 
Deltadeliquent said:
Oh Nic1099!!!

Get thee to VEGAS right away.
Have a nice reception later on.
Then convalidate.

Don’t let him mess you up any more!
In my prayers.
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Hello,

I will conclude that you are not joking and reply: the Church would not recognize a Vegas wedding of a Catholic, or any sort of civil union. That sort of “marriage” would not impede a possible action before the Rota.

Dan
 
Oh, I am corrected.
My thinking:
She is currently free to marry because she has a decree of nullity from her first marriage,
Until the respondent re- engages the tribunal by asking for an appeal, the case is closed.

Since all marriages are presumed valid, (and this one was contracted whilst she was under a declaration of being “free to marry”) and since the respondent cannot take any action on this marriage as the he is not a party to the new marriage, I thought that she would be in a presumed valid marriage of a non sacramental nature of she married civilly.

Then, later she could make it sacramental.

She was saying that the registry office I her part of Ireland is swamped and she cannot get a date before next year. I figured she meant a civil registry. Perhaps it’s church and state are one and the same Ireland? I thought if she could get a civil marrige on the books before that she would be safe.

I guess I do canon law like I do maths…
Sorry. But still in my prayers.
 
Deltadeliquent said:
Oh, I am corrected.
My thinking:
She is currently free to marry because she has a decree of nullity from her first marriage,
Until the respondent re- engages the tribunal by asking for an appeal, the case is closed.

Since all marriages are presumed valid, (and this one was contracted whilst she was under a declaration of being “free to marry”) and since the respondent cannot take any action on this marriage as the he is not a party to the new marriage, I thought that she would be in a presumed valid marriage of a non sacramental nature of she married civilly.

Then, later she could make it sacramental.

She was saying that the registry office I her part of Ireland is swamped and she cannot get a date before next year. I figured she meant a civil registry. Perhaps it’s church and state are one and the same Ireland? I thought if she could get a civil marrige on the books before that she would be safe.

I guess I do canon law like I do maths…
Sorry. But still in my prayers.
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Natural marriage is a marriage between two people who are free to marry where one or both are not baptized. In this case, a civil marriage would be seen as valid. So would a legal marriage performed in another religious tradition.

Sacramental marriage is a marriage between two Christians who are free to marry and have been baptized in the proper form. It doesn’t matter if say one is Baptist and the other Lutheran, for example. Again, a civil ceremony or one performed by another religious tradition would be valid.

Catholics are an exception to the “all marriages are presumed valid until proven otherwise” rule. Catholics are required by canon law to marry in the Church or receive dispensation from form to marry outside of the Church. Marriages of catholics outside the Church without dispensation are not presumed valid. If the OP went to Vegas without dispensation the marriage would not be valid and she would be considered “living in sin” ,otherwise known as fornicating, until the situation was rectified by convalidating the marriage. As Dan said, this kind of marriage would not help her as far as the Rota goes since the Church wouldn’t recognize the civil marriage.

I am not familiar with how it works in Ireland, but to the best of my knowledge they’re a country that separates civil marriage from religious marriage. As in, the legal ceremony takes place in a registry office and any religious rites the couple wish to participate in take place separately.

I wonder, though, if the OP could do whatever marriage prep her Priest requires, travel to a registry office further away that has an earlier opening, marry, then have her religious ceremony immediately upon returning since she does have a completed Decree of Nullity?
 
I see…
Since she would be married civilly but without any church authority, it is not a marriage at all and her respondent can make whatever mess he can manage still. But if she was able to be married both civilly AND in church, she’s safe.

So Vegas might mean that she is civilly married, but that the church may not be able to make it a sacrament if in the respondent decides to make trouble and “wins” before she can get a convalidation. She would be stuck as far as the church goes, which is ,of course, the true end game. A disaster!

However, if she went to Vegas, and then very soon thereafter got the marriage convalidated, she would be safe. Assuming the respondent was not able to file any papers in the few days between Vegas and convalidation. She would have the Vegas marriage papers, and the “free to marry” papers (still valid because the respondents appeal hasn’t been acted upon as yet). That should allow a quick convalidation?
Not the nicest way to go about things, true, but at least it would work?
I was just substituting a quick Vegas civil marrige for the long wait Irish civil wedding. I am presuming that a convalidation ceremony or full church wedding can be done quickly.

I mention Vegas because I hear you can get married very quickly, and she wouldn’t have to wait for the Irish registry office. I was thinking that she was planning to do exactly the same thing as my Vegas idea, but it would take longer because of the Irish registry wait list.
Anyway, like I said, good thing I don’t do Law…
😊
 
Deltadeliquent said:
I see…
Since she would be married civilly but without any church authority, it is not a marriage at all and her respondent can make whatever mess he can manage still. But if she was able to be married both civilly AND in church, she’s safe.

So Vegas might mean that she is civilly married, but that the church may not be able to make it a sacrament if in the respondent decides to make trouble and “wins” before she can get a convalidation. She would be stuck as far as the church goes, which is ,of course, the true end game. A disaster!

However, if she went to Vegas, and then very soon thereafter got the marriage convalidated, she would be safe. Assuming the respondent was not able to file any papers in the few days between Vegas and convalidation. She would have the Vegas marriage papers, and the “free to marry” papers (still valid because the respondents appeal hasn’t been acted upon as yet). That should allow a quick convalidation?
Not the nicest way to go about things, true, but at least it would work?
I was just substituting a quick Vegas civil marrige for the long wait Irish civil wedding. I am presuming that a convalidation ceremony or full church wedding can be done quickly.

I mention Vegas because I hear you can get married very quickly, and she wouldn’t have to wait for the Irish registry office. I was thinking that she was planning to do exactly the same thing as my Vegas idea, but it would take longer because of the Irish registry wait list.
Anyway, like I said, good thing I don’t do Law…
😊
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I live in Michigan. We have a 3 day waiting period between when a marriage license is issued and when it can be used. For us, religious officials and civil officials can and are authorized to legally marry couples. So, we can scamper to the Justice of the Peace, a Judge, or any minister/lay person who can legally marry folks as soon as we have an appointment.

In a neighboring state, Ohio, there is no waiting period. You go to the courthouse, apply for the license, and can get married then and there as they have ministers and Judges available immediately for a small fee or free. Of course, the marriage is recognized in our home state. A lot of Michiganders do that. I was one of them when I made my poor attempt at marriage. My dad and his wife as well as my sister and her husband were married that way, too. Which is what gave me the idea for the OP to go to another place where there wouldn’t be such a wait and where she could go from legal marriage to her priest for a Church marriage.

If I’m not mistaken, the Church requires the legal ceremony to be complete in Ireland for the religious one to take place. So, as long as the priest is willing and able to marry her and she is able to get the civil ceremony taken care of quickly she’d be fine. But I am not positive as I only have an American friend who is living in Ireland and married to an Irish man to go on.

Vegas or Ohio would be a HUGE expense. But maybe she could head to another part of her country or another nearby country that Ireland would recognize as having legally binding marriages. Maybe England?
 
I was married in England. I don’t think there was any waiting time, just when they had a booking available.
 
Just jumping in with an update.

My first encounter with the deacon who was supposed to help me start the annulment process was quite disheartening. I didn’t follow up from last February until maybe late September. I have now submitted the application and it has been received and apparently accepted. I have an appointment next week with the next official (forgot her title) to take the next step.

I’m so glad to have this moving again.
 
Thanks Deltadeliquent, MJJean and Dan for your (name removed by moderator)ut and prayers.

To date, despite all the mumblings, I have heard nothing from Rome (thank God). As Dan has stated in previous posts, the fact that I have received a Decree of Nullity, it would make it unlikely that any ‘appeal’ would take place. The only options available at this point are a Plaint of Nullity and a Challenging of the Sentence. For the latter to be accepted, new and serious evidence would have to be submitted that is strong enough to overturn the Nullity decree. If this was available, I wonder why the respondent didn’t present it to the Tribunals of First and Second Instance?

For the former to be admitted, the respondent would have to prove issues pertaining to a lack of right of defence or that the judges were incompetent etc.

While I presume nothing, I would imagine that the matter is now closed. The respondent ‘married’ civilly a few years ago and I wonder what his ‘wife’ thinks regarding the fact that her ‘husband’ regards himself as still being validly married to me. I do pray for him and sincerely hopes that he finds peace or better still, goes off and marries his ‘wife’ sacramentally in the Church.

Regards
Nic
 
Hi everyone. I am new to the group and just joined the forum!. looking for some support to go about the annulment.

My fiancé and I would like to get married in the Catholic Church. We are both also Catholic. This would be my first marriage and my fiancé’s second marriage.

HIs first marriage (obviously now divorced for quite some time now), was done in the Cathoilic Church. His ex-wife is not catholic and they had to get special permission to get married in the Church, children were born out of wedlock, only got married due to pressure and “tried to do the right thing”.

Anyways, he tried to get an annulment granted, but the church denied due to lack of evidence. Do any of you have nay suggestions on what do next? Appeal?
 
lrhennessey said:
… Anyways, he tried to get an annulment granted, but the church denied due to lack of evidence. Do any of you have nay suggestions on what do next? Appeal?
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Hello,

Such a scenario requires a lot more than what can be provided in this forum. I suggest he contact a canon lawyer in the area and discuss the entire matter with him/her. I suppose you can send me a private message and we can talk about a few preliminary things…

Dan
 
Nic1099 said:
Thanks Deltadeliquent, MJJean and Dan for your (name removed by moderator)ut and prayers.

To date, despite all the mumblings, I have heard nothing from Rome (thank God). As Dan has stated in previous posts, the fact that I have received a Decree of Nullity, it would make it unlikely that any ‘appeal’ would take place. The only options available at this point are a Plaint of Nullity and a Challenging of the Sentence. For the latter to be accepted, new and serious evidence would have to be submitted that is strong enough to overturn the Nullity decree. If this was available, I wonder why the respondent didn’t present it to the Tribunals of First and Second Instance?

For the former to be admitted, the respondent would have to prove issues pertaining to a lack of right of defence or that the judges were incompetent etc.

While I presume nothing, I would imagine that the matter is now closed. The respondent ‘married’ civilly a few years ago and I wonder what his ‘wife’ thinks regarding the fact that her ‘husband’ regards himself as still being validly married to me. I do pray for him and sincerely hopes that he finds peace or better still, goes off and marries his ‘wife’ sacramentally in the Church.

Regards
Nic
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I am so happy for you!

If I were your ex’s current wife I would be very hurt and absolutely LIVID upon discovering he was arguing his previous “marriage” valid and his mischief making. I hope you have considered praying for her. And him, too. Sounds like they need the prayers! I have just recently been able to pray for my ex and his wife. I have only prayed for them a couple times, but I hope to grow as a person and Christian and be able to someday remember them in my prayers more frequently.
lrhennessey said:
Hi everyone. I am new to the group and just joined the forum!. looking for some support to go about the annulment.

My fiancé and I would like to get married in the Catholic Church. We are both also Catholic. This would be my first marriage and my fiancé’s second marriage.

HIs first marriage (obviously now divorced for quite some time now), was done in the Cathoilic Church. His ex-wife is not catholic and they had to get special permission to get married in the Church, children were born out of wedlock, only got married due to pressure and “tried to do the right thing”.

Anyways, he tried to get an annulment granted, but the church denied due to lack of evidence. Do any of you have nay suggestions on what do next? Appeal?
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Dan is awesome and his advice is invaluable. 😃 I read your post a day or so ago and was going to respond as soon as I had time. Of course, I could only think of “speak to a canon lawyer”.
dans0622 said:
Hello,

Such a scenario requires a lot more than what can be provided in this forum. I suggest he contact a canon lawyer in the area and discuss the entire matter with him/her. I suppose you can send me a private message and we can talk about a few preliminary things…

Dan
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In case it hasn’t been said in a while, thanks, Dan. You rock. We annulment seekers appreciate you!
 
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