Another Ask-A-Pagan thread

[SteveVH]

I guess that would depend on what kind of pagan you are. If i die in some sort of battle with something or someone I will hopefully be brought up to Valhalla to feast with the gods join them in preparations for Ragnarok. If I dont gain access to Valhalla another god may well take me to their own hall, such as Ullr to Ydalir. If not that, then to the misty realm of the dead, Hel, which is not a place of torment or punishment, just the next life.

Are there any consequences for living an immoral or evil life. In other words does a mass murderer of children just pass on to the next life as a worst case scenario?

I see you’re getting fired at from about three sides right now so I’ll back off.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Heres where the mysticism gets involved and things get messy. In the physical universe in which we reside, yes, actions must have a cause. However, the Gods are not physical beings, but spiritual ones. I do not know if the laws of physics or logic extend beyond the physical universe.

Further, as a soft-Polytheist there is alwase the “Is All” present. It has alwase existed, and alwase will, a impersonal entity made up of all life and energy. So Buri, being alive, is part of the “Is All”, and the “Is All” may very well have created him, even if it is an impersonal entity. Now thats a soft-polythiest way of thinking about it, im not sure how a hard-polythiest would answer the question.

However, I think whats starting to show is that we have different concepts of what exactly a deity is supposed to be like and do. Buri is certainly different from Yhwh in that he does not create the whole universe, and he does eventually die of old age. He is not an omnipotent entity, nor are any of the other gods. The gods are a living part of existance, just like us. They are not above existence.

Well, then…I think I would have to focus my attention on the “Is All” because by definition, everything else “Is Less”.

 

[Gullveig]

Just adding a couple of points of clarification.

This is the sequence of events that the Eddas describe:

1. In the very beginning, before anything else existed, there was the primeval void, which was bounded by the primeval elements of fire and ice. The language used to describes these things implies that they are impersonal and non-sentient and that they exist previous to and outside of the universe, but still affect it.
   2)From the collision of fire and ice in the void, three beings came forth: Ymir, father of the giants; Audhumla, the sacred cow; and Buri, father of the gods. There is no implication that design of any kind was involved in this. The Eddas speak of it as a natural and un-directed occurrence.
   3)Ymir created the race of giants and Buri created the race of gods, through his son Borr and other children. The giants and the gods were always in conflict, and so the sons of Borr, Odinn, Vili, and Ve, killed Ymir and created the world from his body and bones.
   4)From Odinn descended the Aesir, which are the primary gods of the Norse pantheon, along with members of the Vanir, another family group of gods descended from Njordr. It is unclear in the lore exactly how Njordr relates back to Buri or Ymir or whether he is another “original” god.
   5)Odinn created the first human man and woman, Ask and Embla, by carving them from trees. That is why he is sometimes referred to as the All-Father. Odinn gave mankind spirit (life), his brother Vili gave us intelligence, and Ve gave us the faculties of our mortal bodies (speech, the five senses, etc).

But, we understand this to be metaphorical in many ways, it isn’t meant to be taken as 100% accurate truth. The gods gave our ancestors stories that were appropriate to their level of technology and pertinent to the point of illustrating their place and role in the world.

I’m also interested in the fact that you believe in hell.

The Norse realm of Hel and the Christian Hell have very little in common except being final destinations for dead souls. It is likely that “Hell” as the English word for the place of torment in Christian theology is borrowed from the Germanic pagan word. (Edit: Skadi beat me too it while I was typing it out. )

 

[Skadi]

Are there any consequences for living an immoral or evil life. In other words does a mass murderer of children just pass on to the next life as a worst case scenario?

I see you’re getting fired at from about three sides right now so I’ll back off.

According to one source the is a place within Hel where murderers and oath-breakers wade through rivers of poison, so I guess you could consider that some sort of eternal punishment.

 

[Gullveig]

Are there any consequences for living an immoral or evil life. In other words does a mass murderer of children just pass on to the next life as a worst case scenario?

There are a few consequences of a dishonorable and immoral life.

1. It offends your ancestors and the gods, which makes it almost certain that you will be rejected by the gods and find no peace among them in the afterlife. In the afterlife, you cannot hide your dishonor or your true nature. Everyone knows. Even if you’re not sitting in a pit of fire, imagine living in a town for all eternity with no escape where everyone knows that you’re a pedophile or cold-blooded murderer or whatever.
2. These behaviors usually have temporal consequences. Ignoring the affects that ancestors and gods are believed to have over one’s luck, a mass murder of children does not fly well in any society and their deeds are likely to come back to bite them. This is one reason why the Norse believed very strongly in justice and had a very well developed judicial system.
3. Dishonor damages one’s oorlog, parts of which are shared with one’s blood kin, family, friends, and community and which are interrelated. Harm done to one’s kindred is harm done to one’s self.

Personally, I think the fire and freezing are embellishments by Christian sources. Much of the rest of the lore indicates that this wasn’t a common thought in the Norse world.

 

[Skadi]

Well, then…I think I would have to focus my attention on the “Is All” because by definition, everything else “Is Less”.

Clever, haha:thumbsup:

But the “Is All” is an impersonal entity, of which the gods are part. So by honoring the gods, I am in fact honoring the “Is All”. The “Is All” is life and energy itself, which everything beyond the physical is made of, the gods, like ourselves, are parts of or faces ofthe “Is All”. And this by the way is totally personal, there is nothing in Germanic Mythology that says this, this is just my own personal opinion of where the Gods sit within the grander scheme of existence.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Clever, haha:thumbsup:

But the “Is All” is an impersonal entity, of which the gods are part. So by honoring the gods, I am in fact honoring the “Is All”. The “Is All” is life and energy itself, which everything beyond the physical is made of, the gods, like ourselves, are parts of or faces ofthe “Is All”. And this by the way is totally personal, there is nothing in Germanic Mythology that says this, this is just my own personal opinion of where the Gods sit within the grander scheme of existence.

But what if the “Is All” actually chose at some point to reveal Himself/Herself/Itself in some fashion to be more than just an impersonal entity?

IOW, what if the Norsemen and the Germanic tribes were on the right track, but they had an imperfect or incomplete picture of the Is All?

Plotinus, a third-century Platonist, taught that the One transcendent absolute caused the universe to exist simply as a consequence of its existence - “creatio ex deo.” His disciple Proclus stated ‘The One is God’.

 

[SteveVH]

But what if the “Is All” actually chose at some point to reveal Himself/Herself/Itself in some fashion to be more than just an impersonal entity?

IOW, what if the Norsemen and the Germanic tribes were on the right track, but they had an imperfect or incomplete picture of the Is All?

Salient point. I have no problem in understanding people who use to worship the sun. It gives us warmth, and light, and makes our crops grow; in fact, life could not exist on this planet without it, it is, therefore, life giving. It is very easy to see how one could be drawn to this belief.

But then, when it is explained that there was One who created the sun to do just the things that prompted me to worship it, I find where my true worship should lie.

This also reminds of Paul’s conversation with the Greeks concerning the temple built to the “unkown God”. Paul made known the “unknown God” by realizing that they recognized something or someone that was greater than themselves or the world around them. He then proceeded to tell them of this God who had revealed himself to mankind.

 

[Skadi]

But what if the “Is All” actually chose at some point to reveal Himself/Herself/Itself in some fashion to be more than just an impersonal entity?

IOW, what if the Norsemen and the Germanic tribes were on the right track, but they had an imperfect or incomplete picture of the Is All?

By nature the “Is All” is impersonal. It has no one will because it is made up of all of us and we all have our own separate and varied wills. I do get the theories you are advancing though.

 

[Randy_Carson]

By nature the “Is All” is impersonal. It has no one will because it is made up of all of us and we all have our own separate and varied wills. I do get the theories you are advancing though.

It just seems to me that if there is a God who has the power to create all things, He would be so far beyond our limited abilities and understanding as to be incomprehensible to us. He would have to reach out to us because we could never reach out to Him.

(I’m using the masculine pronouns as a shortcut.)

 

[Skadi]

It just seems to me that if there is a God who has the power to create all things, He would be so far beyond our limited abilities and understanding as to be incomprehensible to us. He would have to reach out to us because we could never reach out to Him.

(I’m using the masculine pronouns as a shortcut.)

Exactly, he/she/it is incomprehensible. So my relationship to the is all is through the gods and through nature, which are comprehensible. Through the gods i have a definable relationship to the rest of the universe. An explanation to the human condition, which is the point of religion after all.

 

[SteveVH]

Exactly, he/she/it is incomprehensible. So my relationship to the is all is through the gods and through nature, which are comprehensible. Through the gods i have a definable relationship to the rest of the universe. An explanation to the human condition, which is the point of religion after all.

And we’re all about salvation from the human condition, that is, our fallen nature; sin, sickness, and death.

May I ask what prevents you from believing in an all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-present divine Being who is the first cause of everything and is, above all, a personal, loving God? Do you accept the possibility?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Exactly, he/she/it is incomprehensible. So my relationship to the is all is through the gods and through nature, which are comprehensible. Through the gods i have a definable relationship to the rest of the universe. An explanation to the human condition, which is the point of religion after all.

But Skadi-

That’s kinda the point of Him reaching down to us His creation. We can’t reach Him, but He can reach us, you know?

Why, He might even choose to become one of us in order to teach us more fully.

 

[Skadi]

And we’re all about salvation from the human condition, that is, our fallen nature; sin, sickness, and death.

May I ask what prevents you from believing in an all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-present divine Being who is the first cause of everything and is, above all, a personal, loving God? Do you accept the possibility?

Is it possible? Yes, however the learning and experiences of my life have led me to believe in other possibilities.

Also, I do not believe man has a “Fallen” nature from which we need salvation.

 

[Skadi]

But Skadi-

That’s kinda the point of Him reaching down to us His creation. We can’t reach Him, but He can reach us, you know?

Why, He might even choose to become one of us in order to teach us more fully.

We can reach the “Is All” because we ARE the Is All, atleast small parts of it. But I believe that it is an impersonal deity. It is up to us to find the connection within ourselves, and by connecting with the rest of existence, including whatever particular deity we worship.

 

[Skadi]

Just stumbled across some non heavy metal Asatru music from Iceland, the head of the Ásatrúarfélagið actually helped make it.

youtube.com/watch?v=TRQ2WwiMndY

 

[PRmerger]

An explanation to the human condition, which is the point of religion after all.

No, Skadi. The point of religion is about Truth. And it is about relationship. Religion comes from religare, the Latin word for relationship, or that which binds us.

 

[PRmerger]

Ive heard this one before, and no, I dont believe they are demonic.

and my Hel is very different from your Hell. Hell with two L’s is an english word for derived from the old English Hel with one L, which dates back to the Anglo-Saxon pagan period and refers to the a goddess and location in Germanic mythology. Hell with two L’s is used to refer to the Christian afterlife for sinners, Gehenna in Greek.

So when i say Hel with one L, im talking about something totally different than you are, using a word which goes all the way back to Proto-Germanic and was used well before Christ was even born.

Do you know what is the Hebrew word for hell?

And was the Proto-Germanic use of Hel in existence prior to Judaism?

 

[Skadi]

Do you know what is the Hebrew word for hell?

And was the Proto-Germanic use of Hel in existence prior to Judaism?

Sheol is the Hebrew word for hell, however the Jewish concept of hell and the christian one are very different. The ancient Jews believed everyone went to Sheol, period.

We dont know when Proto-Germanic came into existence, sense we have no actual examples of the language, but it is know to exist as it lies at the point of convergence for all Germanic languages. Does it predate Judaism? Possibly, but we dont know. I dont know how thats important though because the English word “Hell” does not appear until the christianization of the Anglo-Saxons.

 

[PRmerger]

Sheol is the Hebrew word for hell, however the Jewish concept of hell and the christian one are very different. The ancient Jews believed everyone went to Sheol, period.

We dont know when Proto-Germanic came into existence, sense we have no actual examples of the language, but it is know to exist as it lies at the point of convergence for all Germanic languages. Does it predate Judaism? Possibly, but we dont know. I dont know how thats important though because the English word “Hell” does not appear until the christianization of the Anglo-Saxons.

What’s the Latin word for hell?