Another Ask-A-Pagan thread

[Skadi]

What’s the Latin word for hell?

Infurnus is commonly translated as hell, although latin is a very context sensitive language and that’s not the literal meaning of the word.

 

[PRmerger]

Sheol is the Hebrew word for hell,

That looks very similar to the English word, hell. Sheol. Hell.

however the Jewish concept of hell and the christian one are very different. The ancient Jews believed everyone went to Sheol, period.

Different, yes. Very different? No.

We dont know when Proto-Germanic came into existence, sense we have no actual examples of the language, but it is know to exist as it lies at the point of convergence for all Germanic languages. Does it predate Judaism? Possibly, but we dont know. I dont know how thats important though because the English word “Hell” does not appear until the christianization of the Anglo-Saxons.

Haha! Well, the English word “hell” may not have appeared until, well, English began to have the teachings of Christianity. True, dat.

But the concept of hell has been around since Judaism, and was perfected (that is, the truths revealed) when Christ gave us the Word.

 

[Skadi]

That looks very similar to the English word, hell. Sheol. Hell.

Different, yes. Very different? No.

Haha! Well, the English word “hell” may not have appeared until, well, English began to have the teachings of Christianity. True, dat.

But the concept of hell has been around since Judaism, and was perfected (that is, the truths revealed) when Christ gave us the Word.

I understand the concept of hell has been around a long time, in the orrigional post i was simply explaining that Hel and Hell, while similar in appearance, are two separate concepts. And that the english word Hell exists specifically because of its similarity to the old English word Hel.

 

[PRmerger]

I understand the concept of hell has been around a long time, in the orrigional post i was simply explaining that Hel and Hell, while similar in appearance, are two separate concepts. And that the english word Hell exists specifically because of its similarity to the old English word Hel.

Or because of its similarity to Sheol.

 

[Skadi]

Or because of its similarity to Sheol.

How many 5th century missionary in Britannia would have spoke Hebrew? considering their masses and most of their texts were in Latin. And why exactly if your going to introduce an entirely new word into a language would you not just go with the Latin word you are using already? I dont realy think its possible that the Hebrew word Shoal is the root word of the English word Hell. I honestly dont think you will find a linguist on the planet who would support that theory.

 

[Gullveig]

Linguistically, “sheol” and “hel” and their roots are extremely different and so far apart in geographical and temporal usage that the likelihood of a connection is very low. I agree with Skadi that I know of no linguist or linguistic theory that would support a connection between the two. Hades and gehenna and the latin terms would have been the more likely words used, and the word for the Christian hell in most Scandinavian languages is related to the Old Norse and Proto-Norse root “vitti” for “punishment”, with “hel” tacked on. Most Iron Age Scandinavian scholarship that I’ve read hold the theory that the Norse concept of Hel was co-opted by missionaries for a time in the same way they co-opted Hades in the Greek. The term in pagan times was understood to mean something very different. The missionaries had to qualify the term “hel” attaching it to the concept of punishment, because “hel” was not understood to mean punishment in the original language.

 

[PRmerger]

I dont realy think its possible that the Hebrew word Shoal is the root word of the English word Hell. I honestly dont think you will find a linguist on the planet who would support that theory.

Ok.

 

[ffg]

Great thread.

Skadi - Thanks for the response. Randy already answered with details about the NT authors.

The only thing I would say with the rest of your response is if your contradiction point was true, the Bible would not have made it to the printing press and there would not be a Christian religion being practiced.

It is important to understand that what is attractive in all religions is truth. Perhaps as simple as ‘be nice’ as the sole rule of a church or belief.

Contradiction in the compliment of books in the Bible (or in teaching outside of the written Word) would surely have been cause for concern for our ancestors and the religion would not have continued much past the first couple centuries after Christ.

I’m sure, as this is ‘Catholic Answers’, where you see contradiction would be a lovely topic to plow through. I would be very interested in the answers from the folks here.

 

[Randy_Carson]

We can reach the “Is All” because we ARE the Is All, atleast small parts of it. But I believe that it is an impersonal deity. It is up to us to find the connection within ourselves, and by connecting with the rest of existence, including whatever particular deity we worship.

Well, this is probably a stupid question, but how can a deity that is made of beings with a personal nature not have that same nature?

But even putting that aside, I have to come back to a previous question…

Your faith, Germanic Paganism, is transmitted to you by means of written texts and oral teaching, correct? I mean, you’re not making it up as you go along (are you?). So, at some point the beliefs were written down or handed down from someone before you. Therefore, it is not logical for you to dismiss Christianity simply because it relies Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, for these are very types of transmission that you yourself depend upon.

Now, is it possible that the “Is All” or Creator God who is behind or above all created things revealed himself differently to one group than he did to another? In other words, you believe that you know certain things to be true concerning Buri and Skadi, etc., but other peoples have not received this revelation that you have received. You know more of the truth than they do. Hurray! :clapping::extrahappy:

But if that is true, then isn’t it also possible that God, the “Is All” of your faith, has been revealed differently or even more fully to another people?

 

[Brendan_64]

In short, i came to the conclusion Jesus was not divine.

Although you decided that Woden, Thunor, Freyja, Loki and all the countless other characters in Germanic stories were? Cool stories, I’ll give you that, but on what grounds do you base your certainty of their divinities?

 

[SteveVH]

No, Skadi. The point of religion is about Truth. And it is about relationship. Religion comes from religare, the Latin word for relationship, or that which binds us.

Which always cracks me up when I hear someone say that they have a personal relationship with God but don’t need religion. Its like saying I have a personal relationship with God but I don’t need a relationship. lol.

 

[Skadi]

Great thread.

Skadi - Thanks for the response. Randy already answered with details about the NT authors.

The only thing I would say with the rest of your response is if your contradiction point was true, the Bible would not have made it to the printing press and there would not be a Christian religion being practiced.

It is important to understand that what is attractive in all religions is truth. Perhaps as simple as ‘be nice’ as the sole rule of a church or belief.

Contradiction in the compliment of books in the Bible (or in teaching outside of the written Word) would surely have been cause for concern for our ancestors and the religion would not have continued much past the first couple centuries after Christ.

I’m sure, as this is ‘Catholic Answers’, where you see contradiction would be a lovely topic to plow through. I would be very interested in the answers from the folks here.

I agree, universal truth is the great attracting factor of all religion, and Christianity has it. But i dont think Christianity’s survival over the past 2000 years is necessarily indicative that it is entirely true. Hinduism, Shinto, Taoism, and Buddhism all predate Christianity and are still going very strong. Personally i consider Christianity’s rise to dominance in the west a combination of structural advantages that aid in conversion and political factors.

 

[Brendan_64]

Personally i consider Christianity’s rise to dominance in the west a combination of structural advantages that aid in conversion and political factors.

Strurctural advantages and political factors that your gods were powerless to resist?

 

[Skadi]

Well, this is probably a stupid question, but how can a deity that is made of beings with a personal nature not have that same nature?

But even putting that aside, I have to come back to a previous question…

Your faith, Germanic Paganism, is transmitted to you by means of written texts and oral teaching, correct? I mean, you’re not making it up as you go along (are you?). So, at some point the beliefs were written down or handed down from someone before you. Therefore, it is not logical for you to dismiss Christianity simply because it relies Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, for these are very types of transmission that you yourself depend upon.

Now, is it possible that the “Is All” or Creator God who is behind or above all created things revealed himself differently to one group than he did to another? In other words, you believe that you know certain things to be true concerning Buri and Skadi, etc., but other peoples have not received this revelation that you have received. You know more of the truth than they do. Hurray! :clapping::extrahappy:

But if that is true, then isn’t it also possible that God, the “Is All” of your faith, has been revealed differently or even more fully to another people?

The Eddas and other Sagas are indeed written sources like the bible, but they are stories of the deeds of Gods and Warriors as opposed to a book of divine revelation. Nowhere does Odin sit down and lay out doctrine, its all allegory. But with the bible even if one takes parts as allegory, the new testament must be taken as literally true. Thats a much higher bar set for it than simple allegories about universal truth.

And most certainly other people also have truth. There are a group of things called universal social mores that exist, which are found in literally every culture on earth. They include bans on theft, killing without reason, and incest, especially between mother and son, as well as a few other things. Also, no developed human culture has ever been discovered without a concept of religion. But because I do not believe man to be in a fallen state I dont believe i need some one specific rout to truth that will save me from some fiery pit.

 

[Skadi]

Although you decided that Woden, Thunor, Freyja, Loki and all the countless other characters in Germanic stories were? Cool stories, I’ll give you that, but on what grounds do you base your certainty of their divinities?

Personal experience, and the fact that others too have had personal experience with them.

 

[Skadi]

Strurctural advantages and political factors that your gods were powerless to resist?

Or that the gods didnt care to resist. And organized worship of the Germanic pantheon existed into the 19th century in areas of Sweden and Iceland, albeit in secret. In Iceland to this day it children are still sometimes given copies of the Eddas as confirmation presents. If there is one pagan religion in Europe that can claim continuity from the old religion to its current incarnation its the Asatru.

But Id like to ask you the same question. According to the bible there were times when the worship of god died out completely on earth. So how is that any different?

 

[Brendan_64]

Or that the gods didnt care to resist.

Hadn’t got the stomach for a fight? Or knew when not to fight a battle they couldn’t win? Certainly out of character for them not to engage in a fight, don’t you think? Or maybe they aren’t the tough warriors, they’re portrayed as in their stories?

But Id like to ask you the same question. According to the bible there were times when the worship of god died out completely on earth. So how is that any different?

Not since the coming of Christ. The once tiny little sect has become that greatest religion on the planet. Quite amazing wouldn’t you say?

 

[SteveVH]

I agree, universal truth is the great attracting factor of all religion, and Christianity has it. But i dont think Christianity’s survival over the past 2000 years is necessarily indicative that it is entirely true. Hinduism, Shinto, Taoism, and Buddhism all predate Christianity and are still going very strong. Personally i consider Christianity’s rise to dominance in the west a combination of structural advantages that aid in conversion and political factors.

But the Catholic Church is the oldest actual identifiable, continuously operating institution in the world. Yes, there have always been other beliefs, but not in the form of an operating institution. The Catholic Church has outlived every human institution on the planet and is going strong. Add to this the fact that there is no other institution in the world that has had the effect on all of humanity that is comparable to the Catholic Church. When you consider what it has done in the areas of science, medicine, art, music, institutions of higher learning, hospitals, care for the poorest of the poor, not to mention bringing the salvation of Christ to the world, it is self-evident that man is not at the helm.

 

[Gullveig]

Or that the gods didnt care to resist. And organized worship of the Germanic pantheon existed into the 19th century in areas of Sweden and Iceland, albeit in secret. In Iceland to this day it children are still sometimes given copies of the Eddas as confirmation presents. If there is one pagan religion in Europe that can claim continuity from the old religion to its current incarnation its the Asatru.

In certain respects, this is true. I usually prefer to be more conservative and skeptical by force of habit in considering hidden worship, having heard far too many “grandmother” stories. But, as my parents grew up there and having spent a good bit of time there over the years myself, aspects of ancient paganism are clearly and obviously still alive and well in Iceland. Even though it’s an overwhelmingly secular country now, people still believe in the hidden folk. Though the lawspeaker decided to have Christianity be the public religion, it seems to have been understood that Christianity was a public face that ended at a person’s front door and few people seem to have been interested in asking too many questions about what people did behind closed doors.

 

[lovetheworld]

Wow, this is truly cool.

Skadi, I do follow many religions (belong to none) - however, I must admit, I do not know very much about Paganism…

You sparked my interested… Time for me to learn about something new

Peace
LTW

Its been a bit sense ive seen one of these threads so I figured I would throw it up again to see if anyone has questions. I am myself a former catholic now turned Germanic Pagan, but I have a pretty broad knowledge of the whole Neo-Pagan/Reconstructionist movement.

So, if people have any questions they would like to ask or things they would like to discuss feel free to post or PM me. And if by chance there is other pagan folk out there please feel welcome to join in, paganism is a remarkably diverse group.