Another Gospel

[edmondhall]

St. Paul mentions in I Corinthians 15:29 that baptisms for the dead were occurring, but he hardly develops it as a doctrinal point. He mentions slavery in various epistles too, but that hardly counts as a doctrinal justification for the practice. Why do LDS have baptisms for the dead? What’s the doctrine behind the practice?

 

[arieh0310]

edmondhall:

St. Paul mentions in I Corinthians 15:29 that baptisms for the dead were occurring, but he hardly develops it as a doctrinal point.

Notice that Paul is careful to use the pronouns “they” “their” “people”, etc. when talking about this activity. Whereas, elsewhere throughout the chapter he uses the pronouns “we”, “me”, “you”, etc. to describe orthodox practices.

 

[Zakuska]

arieh0310:

The Shepherd of Hermas is pretty weak evidence since it is an anonimous work written at an unknown date. Although the Shepherd may have been in vogue it was controversial from the beginning and was quickly labeled non-inspired.

There are serious problems all over the Shepherd of Hermas. The Holy Spirit is called the Son of God and the Holy Spirit became Jesus at the Incarnation. The Shepherd also warns that anger comes from evil spirits yet when Hermas expresses some doubt as to his ability to keep the commandments that have been revealed to him the Shepherd himself rebukes Hermas in what clearly appears to be an outburst of extreme anger. Hermas gives his own account of this: “He [the Shepherd] said these things to me very angrily, which confused me and I feared him greatly, for his appearance was changed so that a man could not endure his anger.” It is only after the Shepherd sees how distressed Hermas is by his anger that he becomes more composed and his anger subsides. In Hermas’ dialogue with the Shepherd, among the many instructions that are given to him, the issue of post-baptismal sin is discussed. It is revealed to Hermas that anyone who sins after baptism is given the opportunity to repent only once. Any sin that is committed afterwards is viewed extremely dismally and the implication is given that such an individual will no longer be able to obtain forgiveness.

You might as well quote from gnostic gospels to prove your points, they were popular too.

Hmm Shows how much you know your Bible.

Rom. 8: 9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

1 Cor. 10: 4
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that
spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1 Cor. 15: 45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

2 Cor. 3: 17
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Not to mention that Christ is Identified as the Spirit who speaks to the Churches in Revelation!

Rev. 2: 17
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden bmanna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

I mean here is Christ he has a body of “Flesh and Bones” and he’s being called a Spirit! What is the freakn deal with that!

Luke 24
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

 

[Zakuska]

arieh0310:

Notice that Paul is careful to use the pronouns “they” “their” “people”, etc. when talking about this activity. Whereas, elsewhere throughout the chapter he uses the pronouns “we”, “me”, “you”, etc. to describe orthodox practices.

Ah the old ‘we’ vs ‘they’ English symantec Game.

The we and they are not there in the greek people! Thus there are tranlastions such as these.

1 Corinthians 15:29 (New International Version)

29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

As history has shown the Jews did proxy washing rituals for their Kindred Dead. Paul was a Jew. Why would he use a false practice to prove a truth?

You can continue relying on week arguments if you like… but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

 

[Zakuska]

edmondhall:

St. Paul mentions in I Corinthians 15:29 that baptisms for the dead were occurring, but he hardly develops it as a doctrinal point. He mentions slavery in various epistles too, but that hardly counts as a doctrinal justification for the practice. Why do LDS have baptisms for the dead? What’s the doctrine behind the practice?

Shall we let the Lord speak for himself through a Prophet of God in the 19th Century?

D&C 124
29 For a baptismal font there is not upon the earth, that they, my saints, may be baptized for those who are dead—
30 For this ordinance belongeth to my house, and cannot be acceptable to me, only in the days of your poverty, wherein ye are not able to build a house unto me.
31 But I command you, all ye my saints, to build a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me.
32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.
33 For verily I say unto you, that after you have had sufficient time to build a house to me, wherein the ordinance of baptizing for the dead belongeth, and for which the same was instituted from before the foundation of the world, your baptisms for your dead cannot be acceptable unto me;
34 For therein are the keys of the holy priesthood ordained, that you may receive honor and glory.
35 And after this time, your baptisms for the dead, by those who are scattered abroad, are not acceptable unto me, saith the Lord.
36 For it is ordained that in Zion, and in her stakes, and in Jerusalem, those places which I have appointed for refuge, shall be the places for your baptisms for your dead.
37 And again, verily I say unto you, how shall your washings be acceptable unto me, except ye perform them in a house which you have built to my name?
38 For, for this cause I commanded Moses that he should build a tabernacle, that they should bear it with them in the wilderness, and to build a house in the land of promise, that those ordinances might be revealed which had been hid from before the world was.
39 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your bbaptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.
40 And verily I say unto you, let this ahouse be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;
41 For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times.
42 And I will show unto my servant Joseph all things pertaining to this house, and the priesthood thereof, and the place whereon it shall be built.
43 And ye shall build it on the place where you have contemplated building it, for that is the spot which I have chosen for you to build it.
44 If ye labor with all your might, I will consecrate that spot that it shall be made aholy.
45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my aservants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.
scriptures.lds.org/dc/124

There is also a promise Given to Obadiah by the Lord for vicariuous works for the dead.

Obad. 1: 21
21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD’s.

Catholics hold a very similar doctrine… purgatory and the prayers of the saints releasing loved ones from there. (Then you have the stint with indulgences )

Is not God the god of the dead and the living?

Mormons beleive the same Ordinances must be administered for either to enter the Kindgom (John 3:5). For the dead it is by Proxy, by one who is Living. The Shepard agrees.

Catholics used to as well.

 

[arieh0310]

Zakuska:

Hmm Shows how much you know your Bible.

I could say the same for you. In Luke 24 Christ’s disciples were terrified that He was a ghost and Jesus used as proof that he wasn’t a ghost because he had flesh and bones. Revelations 2, what is so convincing about that, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son.

And anyway, who is denying that Christ has a spirit, a divine nature? We are described in Scripture as having a spirit, does that mean that we are the Holy Spirit incarnate as well? Christ was fully divine and fully human and one with the Father. However, even in the LDS version of the trinity, the Holy Spirit did not become the Son (at the Incarnation or at any other point). Jesus isn’t the fleshly manefestation of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Zakuska]

arieh0310:

I could say the same for you. In Luke 24 Christ’s disciples were terrified that He was a ghost and Jesus used as proof that he wasn’t a ghost because he had flesh and bones.

Exactly… context dictates we interpret “Spirit” in this context as “Ghost” (ie a Disembodied breath of life) Thats why its called the Holy Ghost. So it can dwell in you. It has not a Body of Flesh and Bones.

But Christ the very Christ with Flesh and Bones is called by Paul “that Spirit”. Notice the Capital ‘S’ there. Spirits do indeed have Bodies of Flesh and bone. But no blood.

Heres what Beloved Cahtolic Theologian Dr. Brown has to say about John 4:24.

I got the Raymond Brown reference from Eugene Seaich’s book : Anchient Text andMormonism page 26 para #1 which says in resgards to John 4:24 -

" This is not an essentian definition of GOD, but a description of GOD’S dealing with men; it means that GOD is spirit toward men because he gives the spirit [xiv 16] which begets them anew".

Seaich also points out that :

“There are in fact two other such descriptions in John’s writtings, " GOD is light” " 1 John 1:5, GOD is "Love"1 John 4:8, thou no one has argued that GOD is a light or a species of Love. In short,one must worship the Father through the spirit which he has given to the Church John 14:16,** there being no hint that he himself is “a spirit”**.

The sisteen indeed holds a picture of Gods body.
christusrex.org/www1/sistine/4b-Adam.jpg

 

[PaulDupre]

Zakuska:

Shall we let the Lord speak for himself through a Prophet of God in the 19th Century?

No we shall not, for that man was not a prophet. He was a child-raping, money-grubbing, power-seeking, delusional con man whose “revelations” were unfailingly self-serving.

 

[Zakuska]

PaulDupre:

No we shall not, for that man was not a prophet. He was a child-raping, money-grubbing, power-seeking, delusional con man whose “revelations” were unfailingly self-serving.

What kind of like Joseph the Carpenter… marying Mary at 14? Before God stole her away?

Peter and Paul were quite the money grubbers themselves.

2 Cor. 11: 8
8 I robbed other churches, taking bwages of them, to do you service.

Look at these two… they went into tithing settlement and came out dead.

Acts 5
1 BUT a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Man don’t mess with the Christian God Fathers!!!


You where saying something about self serving?

 

[arieh0310]

Zakuska:

Exactly… context dictates we interpret “Spirit” in this context as “Ghost” (ie a Disembodied breath of life) Thats why its called the Holy Ghost. So it can dwell in you. It has not a Body of Flesh and Bones.

But Christ the very Christ with Flesh and Bones is called by Paul “that Spirit”. Notice the Capital ‘S’ there. Spirits do indeed have Bodies of Flesh and bone. But no blood.

:whacky:

 

[Zakuska]

What… cant wrap your head around the truth?

 

[PaulDupre]

It is obvious, Zakuska, that you are not an orthodox LDS. No LDS in communion with SLC believes that spirits have flesh and bone.

That explains a great deal about you and your posts.

 

[arieh0310]

Flesh and bones, but not blood…what???

Zak the Eisegete!!

 

[PaulDupre]

Resurrected beings, according to the LDS, have flesh and bone but no blood (they have spirit in their veins), but LDS spirits do not have flesh and bone.

Zakuska is apparently an apostate. Boyd K Packer’s goons should be knocking on his door any minute now.

 

[Zakuska]

Lets see Packer go against the bible.

2 Cor. 3: 17
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Christ is a “spirit” who just happend to have a body of flesh and bones. He’s not a body of flesh and bones who has a spirit.

 

[majick275]

He’s done it before. Remember LDS disregard any part of the bible that disagress with them as “incorrectly translated”.

Your horrid comments about Joseph, Peter and Paul demonstrate a ridiculous disregard for context. Joseph never had sex with Mary. Paul in corinthians is letting one church know that the money he spent for their needs came at the expense of other churches. He wants them to use it wisely and appreciate the generosity of others.

Ananias and Sapphira were not punished for non-payment of tithes, they were punished for their deceit and fraud. They attempted to gain the benfits of having all thingas in common while withholding their own assets and lying about it. The scripture tells us that they could have been truthful and God would have spared them.

Where in any of these was it self-serving for Peter or Paul?

Look at the lectures on faith as published in the LDS book of commandments and you will see JS changing doctrine on this subject of spirit v. body.

Wether or not Dr. Brown is truly a “Catholic theologian” is debatable but also irrelevant. Once again we don’t need to suffer the confusion of LDS doctrine because we have a catechism. It documents the official position and tells you how it was derived.

Do you claim Michelangelo Bounarotti is a doctrinal authority? Please… Art was used in the early church to teach through visual symbols because books were rare and expensive and most folks were illiterate anyway. The sistine chapel painting does not in any way demonstrate a Catholic belief in God having a physical body.

Baptisms for the dead are necromancy which fits in quite well with the other masonic rituals that exists in the LDS Temple. Why just look at the endowment itself and notice the prominent posiion of Satan in it. How nothing he says is ever refuted and the apron that he gives folks is worn the entire time OVER the clothing the Lord provides. (the symbol of power and priesthoods) Notice how in the LDS temple SATAN answers Adams prayers, never God. Eve convinces Adam that following Satan was better! withcraft from a false prophet that every so often gets a facelift so that over time the endowment seems less “kooky”.

Now THERE’S another Gospel!

 

[bones_IV]

The mormons believe also that the Lord Jesus was a “spirit brother” of Lucifer. Which is not found in the holy scriptures.

 

[arieh0310]

This is a great thread, thanks to majick for that great post. The more and more I learn of mormon theology, the smaller and smaller the Father and Son appear in their teachings. I am glad we serve a great big God.

 

[Zakuska]

bones_IV:

The mormons believe also that the Lord Jesus was a “spirit brother” of Lucifer. Which is not found in the holy scriptures.

Was not lucifer a “son of the morning”?

Satan was a son of God before he fell. Thus he was a “spirit brother” of Christ as where we all.

Eph 3
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the aFather of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole afamily in heaven and earth is named,

 

[Zakuska]

Joseph never had sex with Mary.

Matt. 1: 25
25 And knew her not TILL she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

According to her Gospel she was 14 when Joseph brought her home from the temple. 9 months makes her a 15 year old when Christ was born. According to you Joseph must have been a pedophial!

Ananias and Sapphira were not punished for non-payment of tithes, they were punished for their deceit and fraud. They attempted to gain the benfits of having all thingas in common while withholding their own assets and lying about it.

…

Where in any of these was it self-serving for Peter or Paul?

They had covenanted to give “all their money” to the Church and they ended up dead, because they where caught in a lie.

Acts 5
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

What was Christs continual command to the rich? “Sell ALL that you have… give the money to the poor… pick up your cross… and come follow me”.

Can you imagine what the people standing out side the Door thought when the deacons came out carrying a body bag?

No wonders this verse is in there?!

11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

The scripture tells us that they could have been truthful and God would have spared them.

Well this goes with out saying… If they would have obeyed Gods commanment and given all of the money the story wouldn’t have made it into the bible now would it?