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hxcCatholic413
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Yes because the Catholic Church doesn’t give inmates the benefit of the doubt and is for the death penalty 100% of the time
If euthanasia is an intrinsic evil so is the death penalty. God Bless!
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If euthanasia is an intrinsic evil so is the death penalty. God Bless!
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shockerfan
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No irony. Abortion is intrinsically evil, the death penalty is not. No intrigue, just facts according to the CCC.
Your post said “what kind of Christian would support “legal” murder”… My scenarios are cases of the death penalty being used to protect life. In most cases, I don’t support the use of the death penalty, but its not a stretch to come up with some obvious examples.
So to respond to your reply to the first scenario, what if the bad guy just tells the Chaplain to go away? What if he doesn’t convert to Christ?
Just curious, you seem to feel there is no justification for taking a guilty life for the protection of others…what about war? Is that ever justified? Or is your definition of “legal murder” just limited to the dp?
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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You are gravely mistaken on what the Church actually Teaches in this matter.
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hxcCatholic413
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lets see Euthanasia = more or less of a suicide by helping someone to kill themselves
Death Penalty = murdering a prisoner who may or may not be guilty by means of torture
hmm interesting…
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hxcCatholic413
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"So to respond to your reply to the first scenario, what if the bad guy just tells the Chaplain to go away? What if he doesn’t convert to Christ? "
ANSWER: send me there and we’ll see what happens
“Just curious, you seem to feel there is no justification for taking a guilty life for the protection of others…what about war? Is that ever justified? Or is your definition of “legal murder” just limited to the dp?”
ANSWER:hmm good question It depends on what the war is for, who was attacked, what goal will be achieved by the war if any…etc. I suppose there is fringe cases that test the truth. Example: Dec. 7th 1941
It’s quite clear that we all have a different perspective on the DP. It’s nice to think these things out before something actually occurs in our lives. If one lost a loved one to murder they would probably have a much different view of the DP then one who is merely an onlooker; however it takes a certain amount of Grace to see the Christ in others and to look for forgiveness. This can be based upon firsthand experience or a change of heart. God Bless!
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CMatt25
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Well maybe not. But then you might have to discount a reply already given about how that part of CCC is incorrect or an opinion.
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shockerfan
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Your reply is not what the Church teaches. Suggest you read up on this. There are several subjects which are intrinsically evil, according to Church teaching, not yours or mine: Abortion, Euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research to name just three. The Death Penalty is not, as the CCC teaches there is a limited use for it. I provided you two examples. Now, you disagree, which is your right to do, however, the Church does not teach my position is sinful or wrong. Therefore, the Death Penalty is not intrinsically evil.
Again, don’t take my word for it, read up on what the Church actually teaches.
Peace.
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Fone_Bone_2001
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Untrue. Protecting society, while not the tautologically central goal of punishment, is another objective as well. Locking them up keeps us all safe, and this reason alone justifies incarcerating murderers and other criminals.
I see you chose to ignore the unimpeachably relevant point that the shift in the Church’s position on the death penalty is certainly contextually justified.
So far I’ve not seen you arguing against the Church’s current standards on when the death penalty should be implemented in any way other than by pointing out that it’s different from the Church’s previous standards on the matter.
And that’s not a reason. The death penalty is not objectively wrong - it is allowed if the circumstances justify it.
And the circumstances today (after the rise of industrialization, sophisticated technology, personalist phenomenology, etc.) make it clear that CCC 2267 should be followed in all its implications by faithful Catholics.
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Ender
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If you’re inventing your own moral code then, no, I can’t refute your reply: by definition your opinion is all that matters. If your morality is directed by what the Church teaches, however, then I can refute what you said as it is not what the Church says. I understand that you reject my position but the problem for you is that it is not merely “my” position as all of my comments are based on what the Church has taught. To refute my stance you have to show that I have misunderstood the sources I quote and that they don’t mean what I claim they mean. I’m ready to have that discussion if you are.
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CMatt25
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I still believe CCC should then be corrected where it is incorrect. Until then I guess to each his own as to what we choose to believe and what we choose to believe is opinion. God bless each of us along our faith walks. And peace to one and all as we embark upon a new year in our journeys.
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canadianguy1143
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I would remind you hxcCatholic that until you intend to follow what the Church teaches you should change your religious affiliation from Roman Catholic to Non-Catholic as you may confuse people as to what the Catholic Church may teach and it can cause scandal for others who do profess the Catholic faith.
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Ender
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I agree with this as well and believe that the content of 2267 will have to be addressed at some point because it’s a mess now.
*Catholic teaching on capital punishment is in a state of dangerous ambiguity. The discussion of the death penalty in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is so difficult to interpret that conscientious members of the faithful scarcely know what their Church obliges them to believe. *(R. Michael Dunnigan, J.D., J.C.L. - canon lawyer)
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CMatt25
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:nope: I find this unfortunately comes up often on the forum. This isn’t the first. I’m going to assume you follow everything the Church teaches though including who She considers to be Catholic.Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ
1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: “Therefore . . . we are members one of another.” Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.”
and here:
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_actus-formalis_en.html
- It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.
God bless you on your faith journey and peace be with you in the new year ahead. :grouphug:
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CMatt25
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Ender, I thought if we kept at it, at some point we would agree of sorts on something at least.
:hug1: God bless you on your walk and peace be with you into the new year.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
While the Church may define people as being in the Catholic Church, those who continually preach something that goes against the Teachings of the Church are actually in a state, at best, of incredulity or, at worst, of heresy.
Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ
1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: “Therefore . . . we are members one of another.” Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.”
and here:
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_actus-formalis_en.html
I truly hope that helps and we not confuse people as to who the Church defines as a Catholic. Sure perhaps different degrees of adherence among Her members. But of course even the most devout in practice are not void of the possibilty of sin.
- It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.
God bless you on your faith journey and peace be with you in the new year ahead. :grouphug:
2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”
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estesbob
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I am afraid you are letting yourself be dragged into another of the interminable "who is really a Catholic " semantics games that many posters are fond of starting when they realize they can not reconcile their postions with the teachings of the church…
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canadianguy1143
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From a theological perspective what you posted is correct and I affirm that. However, it would be better if hxcCatholic were to do what I suggested (as a lay person) than for me to post that he/she doesn’t always follow what the Church teaches for every post that hxcCatholic posts.
Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ
1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: “Therefore . . . we are members one of another.” Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.”
and here:
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_actus-formalis_en.html
I truly hope that helps and we not confuse people as to who the Church defines as a Catholic. Sure perhaps different degrees of adherence among Her members. But of course even the most devout in practice are not void of the possibilty of sin.
- It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.
God bless you on your faith journey and peace be with you in the new year ahead. :grouphug:
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CMatt25
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Perhaps. But my point was merely one Catholic was telling another Catholic to change affiliation to non-Catholic even though the other Catholic as defined by the Church is also Catholic. It just sometimes surprises me when someone is taking offense to what one Catholic says but then they themselves imply another is not a Catholic when the Church teaches they are. But at least you, Canadian Guy, Estesbob, hxcCatholic, and I are on the same page and all affirm from a theological perspective who can affiliate Catholic according to the Church. :grouphug: God bless and peace.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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Its as estesbob stated in his post. An attempt at a semantics game rather than talking about the real issue of following Church Teaching.
Basically, if one does not follow what the Church Teaches then they are not a Catholic even though they are part of the Body of Christ via baptism. Because, technically, anyone baptized with the Trinitarian formula recognized by the Church is baptized into the Catholic Church, so a Baptist who is baptized correctly is, then by your definition, a Catholic.
Now back to the topic at hand.
Any one who says that the death penalty is an intrinsic evil is teaching against what the Catholic Church Teaches, in that the death penalty is not an intrinsic evil.
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CMatt25
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No it was not an attempt at anything other than to clear up whom the Catholic Church defines as its members.
And wrong. They may or may not be as faithful in adherence as you. But are considered Catholic. Besides the CCC and the Pontifical Council writings I offered, I could also FAX a letter from a bishop explaining who is considered a Catholic by the Church. But I’m certain you are actually aware, as in a previous post you affirmed as well who the Church may define as being in the Catholic Church. Perhaps semantics comes into play because some perhaps have difficulty with this teaching. But indeed carry on…
God bless you along your lifelong journey of faith and peace.
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