Another Koran-kissing moment

[Brian_C]

catholicexchange.com/node/7855

You all need to read the Catholic Exchange article on it.

When the two reached the “mihrab” niche that points the way toward Mecca, the mufti turned to Benedict and said he was going to pray. (Whether the pope knew in advance that the mufti was going to do this, is not clear.)
“In this space everyone stops to pray for 30 seconds, to gain serenity,” the mufti said.
And then the mufti closed his eyes and began to pray.
The pope stood alongside him, bowed his head and, for a moment, waited, silent, motionless.
And then he began to move his lips, just a bit.
Silently.

But you also need to keep THIS in mind…

Some analysts are beginning to argue that the threat Benedict opposes is more modern secularism than Islam. That is, Benedict opposes a society with no religious faith at all, no sense of the transcendent, the holy, more even than a society with a very different religious faith and law, if that society still has a profound sense of the holy and the transcendent. (Recall that much of Benedict’s September 12 Regensburg talk was a call to the secularized West to return to a religious faith and a conception of the transcendent that it has abandoned over the past two or three centuries.)

If you read B16’s works, secularism is his main worry.
In this day and age a war over religions is better to have than a war against religion. The Muslims and we at least BELIEVE in GOD!

Yes, Islamic extremism is a grave threat to the West and Europe. But…Europe’s secular society is what allowed Islam to take a foothold and is what Islamic extremists have the most disgust toward. Sure, maybe they’d just kill the righteous Christians second, but…

 

[Marauder]

Suppose this is the Pope kissing the koran. How many countrys did he visit and kiss the ground when he arrived, dose this “offend” you? Not me. Dose this injure your faith in Jesus and his earthly mission ? not mine!
John 6: 61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”

I guess you miss the fact that I am actually defending the Pope against the OP and gave a link that mentioned that even IF he was kissing the Koran it wasn’t a big deal, but whether on not he was kissing the Koran was never verifyed as fact.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

but far far closer than your comment.

Would you like to delete that post now before I report you?

(Edited by Moderator) I should explain that, when I ask if Jesus would do that and they comment on JP instead that is a big difference, this is biblical…

Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
Romans 8:7-9: “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.”
Ephesians 2:3b: "[We] were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

 

[UKcatholicGuy]

Estimate the body count if he had said that. Do we need any more Catholic priests beheaded, nuns shot dead or Western contractors kidnapped and murdered in the Middle East.

It’s not as if the sophisticated major world religions would suddenly convert if we were that blunt with them. Many Catholic missionaries have laboured long and hard in foreign lands often with little fruit.

Is martyrdom now a bad thing? Personally, I think great graces would be obtained from holy priests and nuns dying for the Faith. Anyway, what makes you think that Muslims have converted to Catholicism through “dialogue”? Jesus Christ was pretty blunt in the Gospels, no? Christ’s Church is a teaching Church, and it has authority from God Himself to go out and teach all the nations. Christ did not command His Church to sit down and dialogue with false religions, but to teach “as one who has authority” like Christ Himself did. Dialogue has gotten us nowhere, except possibly further away from the Truth. Why are so many “orthodox” Catholic afraid to admit this? Dialogue and ecumenism are merely practices of the current Church leadership, they are not doctrines, much less infallible dogmas. They either produce fruit or they don’t. I think it’s time we all stop pretending that ecumenism and dialogue are effective (or even that we know what those words mean!) and call for a return to the immemorial practice of the Church and Christ Himself in calling on all nations to repent and believe in the Gospel!

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

The reason it is an IF he kissed the Koran is because there is no proof on what exactly he is kissing. All you have is a green book being kissed by the Pope in front of someone wearing traditional headress. It could be a book of Gospels presented as a gift. There has never been any proof that it is in fact the Koran.

I do not think that is a koran. I think it is a Bible.

 

[Jaypeeto3]

I wouldn’t kiss the Koran any more than I would kiss
the Vedas or the Book of Mormon or a copy of The Watchtower magazine. And there is “partial” truth in all three of the above, but still I couldn’t bring myself to kiss them.
I hope John Paul did that merely as a sign of thanks and respect to the person who gave the book to him.

Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)

 

[geraldffff]

http://www.bible.ca/catholic-pope-kissing-koran.jpg
if?

could you please direct me to this picture you have posted here origiated.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I do not think that is a koran. I think it is a Bible.

former Chaldean patriarch–Raphael Bidawid–was present at the meeting where the event occurred, and in an interview with the press service FIDES, he said the following:
On May 14th I was received by the Pope, together with a delegation composed of the Shi’ite imam of Khadum mosque and the Sunni president of the council of administration of the Iraqi Islamic Bank. There was also a representative of the Iraqi ministry of religion. I renewed our invitation to the Pope, because his visit would be for us a grace from heaven. It would confirm the faith of Christians and prove the Pope’s love for the whole of humanity in a country which is mainly Muslim.

At the end of the audience the Pope bowed to the Muslim holy book, the Qu’ran, presented to him by the delegation, and he kissed it as a sign of respect. The photo of that gesture has been shown repeatedly on Iraqi television and it demonstrates that the Pope is not only aware of the suffering of the Iraqi people, he has also great respect for Islam [SOURCE].

 

[myfavoritmartin]

could you please direct me to this picture you have posted here origiated.

jimmyakin.org/2006/04/jp2_and_the_qur.html

 

[jpusateri]

Quick comment. If any of you has read “Spirit of the Liturgy” by Pope Benedict XVI, you’d know that he advocates facing east during Mass! The old basilicas were all architected that way and he would LOVE to see that renewed.

Take a look!

 

[myfavoritmartin]

From the CCC:
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” :bowdown:

Then your Church would contradict scripture;
2 John 1:9 " Whosoever transgresses, and** abideth not in the doctrine of Christ**, hath not God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son."

1 Jn.2:22-23 “**Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ He is anti Christ **who denies the father and the Son, **Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either, he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” **

 

[st_ignatius110]

“Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has expressed the view that the symbolism of the priest as the one ordained to offer this sacrifice of the Mass on behalf of the congregation and in persona Christi is more clear and effective when the priest faces “liturgical east” the altar of sacrifice with the people.”

 

[myfavoritmartin]

“Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has expressed the view that the symbolism of the priest as the one ordained to offer this sacrifice of the Mass on behalf of the congregation and in persona Christi is more clear and effective when the priest faces “liturgical east” the altar of sacrifice with the people.”

In a mosque? with the muslims? as a sign of respect to what the bible calls anti-christ?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

In a mosque? with the muslims? as a sign of respect to what the bible calls anti-christ?

At least the Catholics at Christianforums would agree this wasn’t well thought out on B16’s part…Seriously! well some anyway.

 

[6glargento]

Then your Church would contradict scripture;
2 John 1:9 " Whosoever transgresses, and** abideth not in the doctrine of Christ**, hath not God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son."

1 Jn.2:22-23 “**Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ He is anti Christ **who denies the father and the Son, **Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either, he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” **

no, what the CCC says is correct. notice it says “the plan of salvation includes the muslims”

this is true because christ’s sacrifice redeemed the whole world, every human being is part of the PLAN of salvation but this doesn’t nessesarilly mean that they HAVE salvation

 

[Andrew_in_Idaho]

If you go to a Mormon and say:

Because you belive in a False God and that you were confused by a quack and everything you ever learned there is false how many will follow you?

But if you come to them and slowly awnser questions and follow there customs you will convert many more.

If I had the statistics I would show you to missionary families that tried to convert indians in the early 1800s.

One family was very anti indian and only gained one convert.

Another family (who were friends wit hthe first) were very opening and welcome to the ceremonies and traditions of the idians and gained 40 or 50 convers the first year alone.

The other family was killed eventually by the idians themselves.

Better to Kiss the Koran and show the world the Pope isnt anti Muslim (maybe anti Islam but not Muslim.) Then to open a rift that can never be closed.

 

[carol_marie]

If you go to a Mormon and say:

Because you belive in a False God and that you were confused by a quack and everything you ever learned there is false how many will follow you?

But if you come to them and slowly awnser questions and follow there customs you will convert many more.

If I had the statistics I would show you to missionary families that tried to convert indians in the early 1800s.

One family was very anti indian and only gained one convert.

Another family (who were friends wit hthe first) were very opening and welcome to the ceremonies and traditions of the idians and gained 40 or 50 convers the first year alone.

The other family was killed eventually by the idians themselves.

Better to Kiss the Koran and show the world the Pope isnt anti Muslim (maybe anti Islam but not Muslim.) Then to open a rift that can never be closed.

I agree.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. ~ Mathew 5:9

 

[Redbandito]

Is martyrdom now a bad thing? Personally, I think great graces would be obtained from holy priests and nuns dying for the Faith. Anyway, what makes you think that Muslims have converted to Catholicism through “dialogue”? Jesus Christ was pretty blunt in the Gospels, no? Christ’s Church is a teaching Church, and it has authority from God Himself to go out and teach all the nations. Christ did not command His Church to sit down and dialogue with false religions, but to teach “as one who has authority” like Christ Himself did. Dialogue has gotten us nowhere, except possibly further away from the Truth. Why are so many “orthodox” Catholic afraid to admit this? Dialogue and ecumenism are merely practices of the current Church leadership, they are not doctrines, much less infallible dogmas. They either produce fruit or they don’t. I think it’s time we all stop pretending that ecumenism and dialogue are effective (or even that we know what those words mean!) and call for a return to the immemorial practice of the Church and Christ Himself in calling on all nations to repent and believe in the Gospel!

You treat it likes it an either/or. Ecumenism is the means in which we share the truth in love. What are you calling for? Without dialogue, how are we to “call on all nations to repent and believe”? I think you are making a false dichotomy here. We must practice ecumenism in a way that never abandons or compromises the truth. However, the truth must be preached in love, or it ceases to be truth. Ecumenism does not always me overly gentle dialogue. Sometimes it calls us to be direct. BUT, we must always do it in LOVE! Never out of self-righteousness. For those who attempt to do so, the truth is lost.

 

[Redbandito]

At least the Catholics at Christianforums would agree this wasn’t well thought out on B16’s part…Seriously! well some anyway.

Pope Benedict XVI might be the most well thought out man on the face of this planet. People all act as if this guy is an idiot and just flies by the seat of his pants. Did you ever consider that the reason you’re scandalized by this is because you want to be? Sometimes I can’t believe what people will attempt to make an issue out of. If you want to talk about the Priest sex scandal, OKAY! If you want to talk about fallen away Catholics, OKAY! But this is just nonsense, and I think you know it.

 

[DianJo]

While I understand that some may automatically cringe over this - as I almost did, it is a good thing that our Pontiff did in that mosque. Before I made any rash judgements, I read this article (see below). It is a wonderful article and the Pope did nothing wrong - he did right in trying to show an example of loving peace.

He not only went to the Blue Mosque but before that he attended a 3 hour Mass in the Byzantine Rite with the Orthodox and Patriarch Bartholmew, went to the Hagia Sophia (such a shame it’s not a place of worship any longer) and then went to the mosque with “top” mufti for a tour. The mufti stopped to pray, as he said all who enter there stop to pray. As the mufti prayed, our Pope said a silent prayer as well - no doubt it was for peace and unity.

Go here: catholicexchange.com/node/7855
If the link doesn’t work, go to catholicexchange.com home page and the article will be right in front of you - front and center!

Happy reading!