Another Koran-kissing moment

[Redbandito]

Then your Church would contradict scripture;
2 John 1:9 " Whosoever transgresses, and** abideth not in the doctrine of Christ**, hath not God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son."

1 Jn.2:22-23 “**Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ He is anti Christ **who denies the father and the Son, **Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either, he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” **

See, this is where the breakdown in communication occurs. The verbage differs so much, at times, between Catholics and others, that these types of misunderstandings occur. This has already been addressed above, but you clearly have misunderstood what it is the CCC teaches.

For starters, your verse states, “who denies the father.” This would represent an active rejection of the Gospel. Denial is an act of the will. Ignorance of the Gospel is not spoken of here. The degree to which a person has had the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel is up for GOD ALONE to judge.

Secondly, Paul states very clearly, “For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares” (Rom 2:13-16).

And your first verse must also be taken in context. What do you think John means by the “doctrine of Christ?” Don’t just prooftext. Explain how you “understand” these verses.

Finally, Christ "is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 Jn 2:2). In other words, GOD ALONE will judge a man’s heart and grant the grace of salvation. However, JESUS is the “atoning sacrifice” for “the whole world.”

So, in light of the Scripture, I think the position laid out in the CCC is quite “Scriptural.”

 

[Randy_Carson]

Then your Church would contradict scripture;
2 John 1:9 " Whosoever transgresses, and** abideth not in the doctrine of Christ**, hath not God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son."

1 Jn.2:22-23 “**Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ He is anti Christ **who denies the father and the Son, **Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either, he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” **

Nice. Very nice. However, I note that you have failed completely to interact with the scriptures I quoted earlier, so I’ll give them to you again:

"While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and “sinners” came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and ‘sinners’?” On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Matthew 9:10-12)

“Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.” (1 Corinthians 9:19-22)

The Pope is on the razor-edge of world tension here; it’s pretty easy for someone of ill-will such as yourself to take potshots from the safety of your easy chair.

His Holiness seeks to “win as many as possible.” Therefore, he may become “like one under the Koran” in order to win those who are under the Koran. He may “become all things to all men so that by all means possible [he] might save some.”

How long do you think you would last on Muslim soil using your approach to evangelism?

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

“Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.” (1 Corinthians 9:19-22)

Just a gentle reminder from the Word of God for my “Bible Only” brethren.

This is why the Holy Father kissed the Qur’an.

Instead of being a loud-mouthed, bible-thumping Evangelical (like how I used to be) the Holy Father was being gentle, with the hope of opening a door to the Gospel.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

The Pope is on the razor-edge of world tension here; it’s pretty easy for someone of ill-will such as yourself to take potshots from the safety of your easy chair.

His Holiness seeks to “win as many as possible.” Therefore, he may become “like one under the Koran” in order to win those who are under the Koran. He may “become all things to all men so that by all means possible [he] might save some.”

How long do you think you would last on Muslim soil using your approach to evangelism?

This arrogant, I am a “true” Bible-Christian is one reason why I left the Fundamentalist movement to join the Church of the Lord Jesus.

I used to be another arrogant Evangelical, and God resisted my pride and humbled me.

Oh, how I love Him!!!

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Better to Kiss the Koran and show the world the Pope isnt anti Muslim (maybe anti Islam but not Muslim.) Then to open a rift that can never be closed.

Exactamento!!!

 

[Jennifer_J]

Romans 8:7-9: “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.”
QUOTE]

Perhaps taking scripture out of context isn’t such a good idea. Of all people in the world, I would imagine the POPE has the spirit of God dwelling within him.

 

[geraldffff]

In a mosque? with the muslims? as a sign of respect to what the bible calls anti-christ?

Thanks martian for your answer, on my question where to find the article. Is it not true that the anti-christ is a seclular personality who denys all gods. If that is so then (it, he,she) cannot be equated with an islamists and there is far more potential of finding this person in the USA or Europe.

 

[geraldffff]

I wouldn’t kiss the Koran any more than I would kiss
the Vedas or the Book of Mormon or a copy of The Watchtower magazine. And there is “partial” truth in all three of the above, but still I couldn’t bring myself to kiss them.
I hope John Paul did that merely as a sign of thanks and respect to the person who gave the book to him.

Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)

What you suggest is rather revolting like picking a maggot cover invalid off the streets of a city street. Soul saving for the Lord Jesus sometimes requires us to hold our noses and proceed. If only it was that simple to rescue my bloodbrother from the JW brainwashing.

 

[genotob]

Since when is praying to God a sin or wrong in any way? Just because he was at a mosque, he should not pray? I don’t get it.

Do you think you would ever see a Muslim Cleric praying while facing the Holy Eucharist?

 

[genotob]

Since when is praying to God a sin or wrong in any way? Just because he was at a mosque, he should not pray? I don’t get it.

Would a Muslim Cleric ever pray while facing the Holy Eucharist"?

 

[marci]

"…Indeed, Modernists do not deny, but actually maintain, some confusedly, others frankly, that all religions are true. That they cannot feel otherwise is obvious. For on what ground, according to their theories, could falsity be predicated of any religion whatsoever?

Certainly it would be either on account of the formula pronounced by the mind. Now the religious sense, although it maybe more perfect or less perfect, is always one and the same; and the intellectual formula, in order to be true, has but to respond to the religious sense and to the believer, whatever be the intellectual capacity of the latter.

In the conflict between different religions, the most that Modernists can maintain is that the Catholic has more truth because it is more vivid, and that it deserves with more reason the name of Christian because it corresponds more fully with the origins of Christianity. No one will find it unreasonable that these consequences flow from the premises.

But what is most amazing is that their are Catholics and priests, who, We would fain believe, abhor such enormities, and yet act as if they fully approved of them. For they lavish such praise and bestow such public honor on the teacher of these errors as to convey the belief that their admiration is not meant merely for the persons, who are perhaps not devoid of a certain merit, but rather for the sake of the errors which these persons openly profess and which they do all in their power to propagate…"

Saint Pius X
On the Doctrines of the Modernists 1907

 

[geraldffff]

Would a Muslim Cleric ever pray while facing the Holy Eucharist"?

Probally not with intention but given the fact The Holy Eucharist is everywhere you cannot be pointed in any direction with out facing it except maby into outer space.

 

[tequilamac]

The kissing of the Koran and praying in a common manner with a religion of satan are both very very wrong and send the wrong message… I was quite proud of your Pope for having the onions to speak up against the muslims a month ago. But if this is true it sure seems all for nothing.

So when you go to your neighbor’s house to visit- you expect your neighbor to do things your way rather than his. We see.,

 

[kms29]

None of us can possibly know what it is like to go into a muslim country when your life is being threatened by muslims.I think we all know where B16’s loyalties lie…God bless our german sheppard!

praise be Jesus Christ

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Building bridges between the one true religion, and a false religion!? Doesn’t St. Paul say there can be no fellowship between light and darkness, between Christ and Belial?

Since you’ve mentioned St. Paul, here are some of his interesting verses…

“Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ send you their greetings.” Ro. 16:16
“All the brothers here send greetings. Greet one another with a holy kiss.” 1 Co. 16:20
“Greet one another with a holy kiss. All of God’s people send you their greetings.” 2 Co. 13:12
“Greet all believers with a holy kiss.” 1 Th. 5:26

I wish JPII had taken time out of his busy schedule of appeasing false religions and writing ambiguous encyclicals to do something about all of those pedophile priests in the U.S.

Wow! Talk about changing the subject. Pedophile priests is such an important topic, it is worthy of a new thread. Don’t mix it in here… This thread is too difficult already.

You honestly believe the God they pray to and the true God are one in the same?

JPII has always said we believe in the same God; Whether we worship Him in a pleasing manner is the question worthy for debate.

Their God is satan the great deciever.
One God! our Creator

They probably don’t know that, because they have been deceived. Who is going to save them?

Anyway… many years ago, I remember people saying the Catholic Church was the work of the Devil; It’s so easy to hate.

 

[Church_Militant]

In a mosque? with the muslims? as a sign of respect to what the bible calls anti-christ?

What Bible are you using man? Mine nowhere specifies the Islamic faith as either Satanic, or anti-Christ.

I think that John Paul II and Benedict XVI are both great examples of Christian lights to the whole world, who because they witness most strongly by example, charity, respect, and compassion, (in much the same way as St. Francis of Assisi also did with the Moslems of his day!) and that if the Muslims are ever converted, a great many of them will be because they saw the compassionate image of Our Lord Jesus Christ in them, (and God willing, us as well!). I don’t think they will be converted with vitriolic rhetoric that calls them Satanic and anti-Christ.

I know that I personally do not respond well to that same sort of rhetoric when applied to my holy Catholic faith by certain n-C/a-C individuals, so I can readily identify.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Genesis315]

What Bible are you using man? Mine nowhere specifies the Islamic faith as either Satanic, or anti-Christ.

I think that John Paul II and Benedict XVI are both great examples of Christian lights to the whole world, who because they witness most strongly by example, charity, respect, and compassion, (in much the same way as St. Francis of Assisi also did with the Moslems of his day!) and that if the Muslims are ever converted, a great many of them will be because they saw the compassionate image of Our Lord Jesus Christ in them, (and God willing, us as well!). I don’t think they will be converted with vitriolic rhetoric that calls them Satanic and anti-Christ.

I know that I personally do not respond well to that same sort of rhetoric when applied to my holy Catholic faith by certain n-C/a-C individuals, so I can readily identify.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

I agree with you and St. Paul who tells us:

Titus 3:2 To speak evil of no man, not to be litigious, but gentle: shewing all mildness towards all men. 3 For we ourselves also were some time unwise, incredulous, erring, slaves to divers desires and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: 5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost; 6 Whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour.

 

[Church_Militant]

I agree with you and St. Paul who tells us:

Titus 3:2

To speak evil of no man, not to be litigious, but gentle: shewing all mildness towards all men. 3 For we ourselves also were some time unwise, incredulous, erring, slaves to divers desires and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: 5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost; 6 Whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour.

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: Both you and St. Paul!

 

[dalcent]

Is martyrdom now a bad thing? Personally, I think great graces would be obtained from holy priests and nuns dying for the Faith. Anyway, what makes you think that Muslims have converted to Catholicism through “dialogue”? Jesus Christ was pretty blunt in the Gospels, no? Christ’s Church is a teaching Church, and it has authority from God Himself to go out and teach all the nations. Christ did not command His Church to sit down and dialogue with false religions, but to teach “as one who has authority” like Christ Himself did. Dialogue has gotten us nowhere, except possibly further away from the Truth. Why are so many “orthodox” Catholic afraid to admit this? Dialogue and ecumenism are merely practices of the current Church leadership, they are not doctrines, much less infallible dogmas. They either produce fruit or they don’t. I think it’s time we all stop pretending that ecumenism and dialogue are effective (or even that we know what those words mean!) and call for a return to the immemorial practice of the Church and Christ Himself in calling on all nations to repent and believe in the Gospel!

You have my blessing to bravely take a one-way plane journey to Mecca with your soapbox. Give it 'em straight!
Saudi Arabian Airlines
It’ll be a shortcut to heaven for sure !!!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Do you think you would ever see a Muslim Cleric praying while facing the Holy Eucharist?

No. They must be very principled.

Similarly, you would never expect to hear a Muslim cleric advocate flying planes into buildings…oh, wait…