Another Pope?

[TNT]

Oh, yes, I forgot about the other application of the EENS doctrine.

Umm, In the Conciliar documents it is called an “AFFIRMATION”.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Umm, In the Conciliar documents it is called an “AFFIRMATION”.

An affirmation of another application to the EENS doctrine? Or just an affirmation that everyone in good conscience goes to heaven?

 

[TNT]

An affirmation of another application to the EENS doctrine? Or just an affirmation that everyone in good conscience goes to heaven?

Oh, yes, I forgot about the other application of the EENS AFFIRMATION.

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Look it up in the Conciliar Catechism.

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[paramedicgirl]

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Look it up in the Conciliar Catechism.

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Is it referenced under affirmation or dogma or doctrine?

 

[paramedicgirl]

I think I found it under “unity.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

 

[paramedicgirl]

---

Look it up in the Conciliar Catechism.

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847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

 

[TNT]

See? That wasn’t so hard.
**CCC
**
** “Outside the Church there is no salvation” **
**846 ** How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too **may achieve eternal salvation.

So, who needs** to "know his church?
[lower case his…like that?]
No one at all.

 

[paramedicgirl]

See? That wasn’t so hard.
**CCC
**
** “Outside the Church there is no salvation” **
**846 ** How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too **may achieve eternal salvation.

So, who needs** to "know his church?
[lower case his…like that?]
No one at all.

OK, now I see why Rome hasn’t felt the need to issue a statement about the Conclavists being a danger to their own and others’ salvation. If it’s all in good conscience, then there is no danger. Right?

 

[MTD]

I think I found it under “unity.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation

My, isn’t this confusing. The Church has always taught that in order to be saved, one must enter the Church by necessity of means. So how is it even possible for other “Churches and ecclesial communities” to be used as means of salvation? Isn’t this a contradiction???

Maria

 

[BobP123]

paramedicgirl:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Didn’t we have 19 of those consciences run into World Trade Centers?

 

[TNT]

Didn’t we have 19 of those consciences run into World Trade Centers?

The question now becomes:
Since they gave the last ounce of blood for their “faith”;
Should we pray for them, or to them?

 

[TNT]

My, isn’t this confusing. The Church has always taught that in order to be saved, one must enter the Church by necessity of means. So how is it even possible for other “Churches and ecclesial communities” to be used as means of salvation? Isn’t this a contradiction???

Maria

You must read my sig to understand (ie have the Gnosis):
To wit:
Liberalism :A mental disorder wherein the Illogical becomes completely logical with no lasting effect on the conscience.

 

[adrift]

I found it interesting that he was ordained a Bishop by a person he ordained as Bishop.

Lucian Pulvermacher

Pulvermacher attempted to obtain episcopal orders by consecrating Bateman to the episcopate and then having Bateman consecrate him in turn. Whether or not a simple priest can, with the Pope’s authorisation, consecrate another man as a bishop is a disputed question: some firmly dismiss the notion, while others point to alleged historical precedents for such an action. Of course, this theological question becomes important only if one accepts that Pulvermacher is the Pope: his episcopal orders otherwise fall to be considered invalid.

 

[paramedicgirl]

My, isn’t this confusing. The Church has always taught that in order to be saved, one must enter the Church by necessity of means. So how is it even possible for other “Churches and ecclesial communities” to be used as means of salvation? Isn’t this a contradiction???

Maria

You would think so… but it’s in the CCC

 

[paramedicgirl]

Didn’t we have 19 of those consciences run into World Trade Centers?

They could be in heaven if they were in good conscience at the time, though.

 

[TNT]

I found it interesting that he was ordained a Bishop by a person he ordained as Bishop.

Lucian Pulvermacher

Sounds like the Mormon Joseph Smith wherein the vision told them to ordain each other of his cohorts into the Aronic (or was it Ironic) priesthood.

 

[BobP123]

Should we pray for them, or to them?

Or even worse, WITH them?

 

[BobP123]

They could be in heaven if they were in good conscience at the time, though.

And if they said a good act of contrition. Oh, wait, they were told by God to destroy. Then never mind with the contrition.

 

[TNT]

Or even worse, WITH them?

Too, late, those 19 are in…gosh where did they go?
Anyway, wherever they are they ain’t here with us no more.

 

[MTD]

You must read my sig to understand (ie have the Gnosis):
To wit:
Liberalism :A mental disorder wherein the Illogical becomes completely logical with no lasting effect on the conscience.

Well, I suppose your sig makes sense then… However, I’m accustomed to thinking of liberalism with a different definition; i.e., that of Liberalism Is a Sin, which says the fundamential dogma of liberalism is the absolute sovereignty of the individual. Thus, the tenets of the Faith are not believed because God has revealed them and the Church has proposed them for belief but because the individual in his sovereignty has decided, based on his own superior reason, that said tenets are worthy of belief. And because of this sovereignty, he can accept or reject tenets as he sees fit. His liberty is supreme.

You would think so… but it’s in the CCC

It makes one wonder…

Maria