Another priest "promoted from within" to Bishop

[Orionthehunter]

frommi:

I think using buisness type models is dangerous when it comes to the catholic church and can obscure the mission of the church.

Healing the sick, helping the poor, etc…these are not things that are financially advantageous, for example.

The drift toward corporate models in the church should be fought at every turn.

And while I don’t think bishops need a lot of time to be brought ‘up to speed’, I can see the wisdom in drifting back towards the original model of the church which meant popular elections of bishops (not sure we will ever go that far back), but selecting shepherds who know the hopes and dreams of their flocks can hardly be a bad thing.

Now, it can be perceived as a bad thing to those who call themselves “authentic” catholics and spend years praying for new leadership because they don’t like the current leadership…but to bow to those types of whims would be dangerous to say the least.

The objective of a business is to make a profit. The objective of the Church is the spread the Good News and perform the temporal ministries I highlighted above. I was only using an analogy but let me be more clear. If a diocese is a well-oiled machine at realizing its objectives, promotion from within may be appropriate. If the diocese is having problems, promotion from without is the better choice.

Regarding the “knowing the hopes and dreams” of the flock comment, I think the primary mission of all Bishops is to further the transcending hope and dream of eternity in heaven. This is the first, second, third and 100th consideration for the right Bishop for a flock. Everything else is insignificant.

The reason that the Church had to rely on selecting bishops by means other than direct papal appointment was a consession to travel and communication limitations. That is no longer a necessity now. I think that the current system whereby there is local (name removed by moderator)ut on names submitted to the Pope for consideration is the limit of local (name removed by moderator)ut. I trust the Holy Father to make a properly inspired selection for all Dioceses.

 

[frommi]

Orionthehunter:

I trust the Holy Father to make a properly inspired selection for all Dioceses.

That could be some misguided trust. JPII was notorious for promoting bishops for some odd reasons. At one point he wanted to put Bp. Kurt Krenn in charge of a high profile see, and it was Cardinal Ratzinger who blocked the move.

Pope’s are not above reproach in their appointment of bishops. And to be honest, the Congregation of Bishops has lost a little credibility with me since Cardinal Law continues to be a member, thus continuing to pull the puppet strings of the episcopacy in this country.

 

[Orionthehunter]

frommi:

That could be some misguided trust. JPII was notorious for promoting bishops for some odd reasons. At one point he wanted to put Bp. Kurt Krenn in charge of a high profile see, and it was Cardinal Ratzinger who blocked the move.

Pope’s are not above reproach in their appointment of bishops. And to be honest, the Congregation of Bishops has lost a little credibility with me since Cardinal Law continues to be a member, thus continuing to pull the puppet strings of the episcopacy in this country.

I believe that I am inadequate to judge the fitness of Bishops. I trust that the Holy Father has a greater charism and insight into the fitness of a particular judgment and any incorrect choices are between the Holy Father and God. I won’t presume to second guess God or His emissary on Earth.

I will faithfully submit with charity and humility to whomever the Holy Father gives me as my Bishop as it serves the Church. If I err or suffer as a result of my submission and obedience, I trust in God’s mercy and wisdom to see the errors of my ways were grounded in Love and Trust.

Once one gives up on the Congregation of Bishops (even in their imperfection) as being Holy instruments of God, one comes dangerously close to the judgment of Luther.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

frommi:

I mean the book “Catholics for Dummies” was written by two priests with no theological background…which seems questionable to me.

I don’t know much about that particular book, but it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that any priest ordained in the U.S. has at least an M.Div.

 

[ekindermann]

Andreas Hofer:

I don’t know much about that particular book, but it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that any priest ordained in the U.S. has at least an M.Div.

Yes, I thought the same when I read that criticism of the Dummies book. I own it. It is straightforward catechesis for folks who might know very little about the faith or for those who just want to read it put simply.

How a man can be a priest and have

no theological background

was a puzzle to me, but of course I am of an unegeecated lot me’self.

By the way what do all the letters after their names stand for?
Rev. John Trigilio Jr., PhD, ThD and Rev. Kenneth Brighenti, PhD

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

frommi:

Well, I think one of the big problems is we only have bishops nominating potential bishops thesedays, but I digress…

Don’t we have to look beyond the whole “orthodoxy” debate?

Mass attendance isn’t any higher in Nebraska than Michigan according to some recent studies…

Regardless, I think using local candidates who are known to the community is a better model than importing bishops who seem as though they come in with orders to “fix things”. Even if that is not the case…

Then again, some bishops in the past made a strong case that bishops should not be transferred diocese to diocese for some strong theological reasons.

I agree the current nomination process is flawed, but I think one of the few systems that could be more flawed is one in which the laity choose their bishops. The American Catholic laity is often more screwed-up than its bishops and priests.

As to “looking beyond” the orthodoxy debate, that’s simply impossible. An unorthodox bishop is a bad bishop. Period. And even if he gets butts in the pews, he’s only getting them there to hear an unorthodox message, and he often pulls them in by disobeying the Church or precisely because he is unorthodox. There is no possible way that an unorthodox bishop can serve well as bishop. He may accomplish certain good things, but on the whole he is always a failure.

The current American church sustains its numbers of Catholics in large part by marking non-Catholics down in the Catholic column. Estimates always vary, but I like Fr. McCloskey’s guess that roughly 20% of “American Catholics” hold and practice the Catholic faith. Mass attendance may get you a rough idea of “practice,” but shows nothing about “hold.” I went to school with “Catholic” theology majors who did neither, and are going to be teaching their own personal faith to the next generation of “Catholics.” If the Church is going to take a long-term goal with eternal perspective, she needs bishops who will be orthodox and show that, despite the modern fear of meaning, the word “Catholic” actually does mean something, and the “unorthodox” don’t fall in that definition.

By the way, I think the theological reasons are good both for promoting from within and not transferring bishops. For the longest time in the early Church, a bishop could not become pope because a bishop was married to his diocese and could not transfer sees, so there’s definitely a strong precedent. What is the best model? I have no idea. But I think that promoting strong candidates from wherever they happen to live is currently preferable to promoting from within.

 

[frommi]

Andreas Hofer:

I don’t know much about that particular book, but it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that any priest ordained in the U.S. has at least an M.Div.

Having an M.Div does not make you a “theologian” per se.

The church has a lot of priests, not a lot of thelogians. I personally think that book is short-sighted and has the tinge of an agenda within it.

 

[frommi]

Orionthehunter:

Once one gives up on the Congregation of Bishops (even in their imperfection) as being Holy instruments of God, one comes dangerously close to the judgment of Luther.

Even Pope Benedict XVI has made the point that the holy spirit is not often involved in these selections because we have had “several popes that the holy spirity would not have chosen”.

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why would the Holy Father or the Congregation of Bishops be qualified to make all of these selections in such a way?

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

frommi:

Having an M.Div does not make you a “theologian” per se.

The church has a lot of priests, not a lot of thelogians. I personally think that book is short-sighted and has the tinge of an agenda within it.

I agree that an M.Div. does not necessarily make one a theologian. I did, however, find it uncharitable to describe priests with probably a half-decade more formal theological training than the vast majority of Catholics as having “no theological background.” That’s like saying a general practitioner has “no medical background” because he didn’t study eye surgery for another few years. On the record, BTW, I think there are plenty of apologists without theology degrees who are much better theologians than some of our doctors of theology in America.

I think we only started turning to “theologians” when we realized we couldn’t trust our priests to level with us about Church teachings. We went to people with more extensive “credentials.” The problem is that “theologians” on the whole don’t seem any more honest than priests. You just have to know who you’re talking to. Like I said, I have never encountered the particular book mentioned, so I’m not commenting on that speciific case, just a general state of affairs.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

frommi:

Even Pope Benedict XVI has made the point that the holy spirit is not often involved in these selections because we have had “several popes that the holy spirity would not have chosen”.

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why would the Holy Father or the Congregation of Bishops be qualified to make all of these selections in such a way?

I side with His Holiness on this one. I think if a prayerful attempt is made, the people in charge will have a great shot at properly discerning God’s will, but I don’t think we have any guarantee beyond the decision-makers’ personal holiness and prudence that we will get good bishops out of the process.

 

[frommi]

Andreas Hofer:

I agree that an M.Div. does not necessarily make one a theologian. I did, however, find it uncharitable to describe priests with probably a half-decade more formal theological training than the vast majority of Catholics as having “no theological background.” That’s like saying a general practitioner has “no medical background” because he didn’t study eye surgery for another few years. On the record, BTW, I think there are plenty of apologists without theology degrees who are much better theologians than some of our doctors of theology in America.

I think we only started turning to “theologians” when we realized we couldn’t trust our priests to level with us about Church teachings. We went to people with more extensive “credentials.” The problem is that “theologians” on the whole don’t seem any more honest than priests. You just have to know who you’re talking to. Like I said, I have never encountered the particular book mentioned, so I’m not commenting on that speciific case, just a general state of affairs.

That’s a fair criticism of my statement…I should have said it was written by authors who are not thelogians.

 

[Orionthehunter]

frommi:

Even Pope Benedict XVI has made the point that the holy spirit is not often involved in these selections because we have had “several popes that the holy spirity would not have chosen”.

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why would the Holy Father or the Congregation of Bishops be qualified to make all of these selections in such a way?

I admit that there have been choices contrary to the choice of the Holy Spirit. However, Christ promised that He would be with His Church always. Even in our sin and sinful choices, God has the power and will to work with the “instruments” we give Him.

Because I take Christ’s promise seriously, I trust that more often than not the choices made by Popes and Bishops is influenced by the Holy Spirit (this is one of the Teachings of the Church regarding Ordination) and even in the absence of total conformance to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, God does work through and with these fallen men.

 

[frommi]

Orionthehunter:

I admit that there have been choices contrary to the choice of the Holy Spirit. However, Christ promised that He would be with His Church always. Even in our sin and sinful choices, God has the power and will to work with the “instruments” we give Him.

Because I take Christ’s promise seriously, I trust that more often than not the choices made by Popes and Bishops is influenced by the Holy Spirit (this is one of the Teachings of the Church regarding Ordination) and even in the absence of total conformance to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, God does work through and with these fallen men.

However…we also believe that the holy spirit works through the whole people of God…not just the hierarchy.

God works through more than just the congregation of bishops…when the litmus tests of men become the requirements for membership on the congregation or the gateway to episcopal ordination…one has to assume that the net is not being cast widely enough.

 

[ekindermann]

ekindermann:

By the way what do all the letters after their names stand for?
Rev. John Trigilio Jr., PhD, ThD and Rev. Kenneth Brighenti, PhD

Doesn’t “ThD” stand for Doctor of Theology?

 

[Illini]

It seems like the bigger trend is not “promoting from within,” but rather the appointment to diocesan bishop of priests who are not yet bishops.

 So far, Benedict XVI has appointed bishops for Fort Worth, Honolulu, Sioux City, Marquette, Nashville, and Reno who were not bishops before their current appointment. Only Grand Rapids and San Francisco received ordinaries who were already bishops. (Also, only Nashville and Marquette's new bishops were from the clergy of that diocese.)

  One effect of this is that bishops chosen by Benedict XVI will quickly make an impact on the USCCB.

-Illini

 

[frommi]

ekindermann:

Doesn’t “ThD” stand for Doctor of Theology?

Where are the scholarly works by the two authors? I think the only thing that qualified them for writing such a book is that they have a tv show on EWTN…

 

[frommi]

Illini:

It seems like the bigger trend is not “promoting from within,” but rather the appointment to diocesan bishop of priests who are not yet bishops.

 So far, Benedict XVI has appointed bishops for Fort Worth, Honolulu, Sioux City, Marquette, Nashville, and Reno who were not bishops before their current appointment. Only Grand Rapids and San Francisco received ordinaries who were already bishops. (Also, only Nashville and Marquette's new bishops were from the clergy of that diocese.)

  One effect of this is that bishops chosen by Benedict XVI will quickly make an impact on the USCCB.

-Illini

I think they were running out of Bishops to move around!

Even though only two of the bishops-designates come from the clergy of their dioceses, it might be the first time it’s happened since Bishop Hubbard was ordained in the 1970s.

 

[geezerbob]

frommi:

Where are the scholarly works by the two authors? I think the only thing that qualified them for writing such a book is that they have a tv show on EWTN…

Education may count as a qualification…and maybe not. Even published authors had to start somewhere, so, what’s wrong with these authors? New doesn’t necessarily equal bad.

 

[grotto]

Promoting a priest to Bishop within a diocese is completely above my pay grade for an opinion - I go with the Holy Father! It appears that the system suffered a break in the chain of command when you look at the Bishop Lefebre (sp?) and his choosing four bishops. Also, closer to home in the Saginaw Diocese, back when Bishop Reh nominated or put forward Ken Uentner’s name for Bishop, the announcing preceeded the approval, also the rush to celebrate in a stadium rather than the Cathedral was grandstanded. Sort of like the invitation being given to the guest after his arrival! IMO, an example of “promoting from within” gone haywire.

 

[ekindermann]

frommi:

Where are the scholarly works by the two authors? I think the only thing that qualified them for writing such a book is that they have a tv show on EWTN…

So according to just one definition I found of ThD:
The ThD in Theology has a double emphasis on accumulating historical knowledge of philosophical and systematic theology within Christianity, and on building constructive skills needed to formulate and argue for theological positions. The doctoral programs in theology are designed to prepare students to understand and assess theological issues, and to pursue truth concerning them, in conversation with religious or secular traditions that might take an interest in them, or in which they might be interested. The ThD in theology has a special concern to connect theological issues with concerns of the Christian traditions.
a ThD is a degree in theology, but apparently that is not quite up to YOUR standards? They haven’t written enough or been published enough according to your fine high standards? Or perhaps the priests cited just don’t support YOUR agenda? So therefore they are not “theologians per se”.

Perhaps you’d like to again rephrase yourself as you did here:

That’s a fair criticism of my statement…I should have said it was written by authors who are not thelogians.

Just a reminder of how this topic even came up: YOU brought up the “agenda” of said books (because the one you quoted was suspect) and you proposed Catholicism for Dummies, which is an entirely different book, written for an entirely different purpose than the one you cited, to be a book written with an agenda. Then to add insult to injury, you insult the authors by questioning their qualifications to write such a book.

amazing self confidence you have! your self esteem is healthy!