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Chellow
Guest
So no response to 1 Timothy 3:15 The church is the pillar and foundation of all truth.
Surely you are not suggesting the RC is the source of ALL knowledge.
God is the source of everything, including ALL knowledge.
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G
Ginger2
Guest
I don’t believe the word “all” is in that verse.
C
Chellow
Guest
Ok remove all, the church is still the foundation of truth.
G
Ginger2
Guest
Well we’ve come to another impass. You think the church is the RC
I know the Church is the body of the faithful - where ever they are.
Luk 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.
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Chellow
Guest
Do you know of any other Church that goes back 2000 years, that is not Catholic.
Not all Churches are of the body of the faithful. You have to remember that Christ also hastes the Nicolaitans who are Christian Revelation Chapter 2:15
Luk 9:49 is good, that’s why I do have a place in my hart for all Christian that don’t teach heated of Catholics.
J
jblake
Guest
Chellow;:
b) They would have used the texts from the Old Testament, to verify that there was no contradiction between the NT and OT. If there was, then the NT book gets labeled “questionable”, Paul’s scolding notwithstanding.
Ginger2:
xan
jonathon
a) The earliest known list of specific books that are canonical is from circa 140 AD;
b) They would have used the texts from the Old Testament, to verify that there was no contradiction between the NT and OT. If there was, then the NT book gets labeled “questionable”, Paul’s scolding notwithstanding.
If I can over-generalize, then yes, they only use the New Testament, except when looking for poor that jesus is the Messiah.
xan
jonathon
J
jblake
Guest
That should read "If I can over-generalize, then yes, they only use the New Testament, except when looking for proof that Jesus is the Messiah.
xan
jonathon.
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2ndGen
Guest
Now, where is the scripture that you got your belief from?
And, since Sola Scriptura contradicts 2 Thess 2,
aren’t you supposed to reject that teaching?
"15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. "
Well, he is the man who invented the belief you believe in.
So, the belief overrides the revealer of the belief to you?
And there was a German Bible before Martin Luther (try 1200 years before) and “it” didn’t have the word alone in it.
The only “clarity” he needed to make was to clearly change the meaning of the verse to create a doctrine that had never been taught before in Christiantiy.
So you trust your faith to a man’s doctrine who’s integrity you cannot verify?
Chapter and verses please.
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2ndGen
Guest
Ginger is correct, but the word “the” is there,
as in “the truth”, meaning the only truth that matters.
======================================
1 Timothy 3:15 >>
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
in case I’m delayed. I want you to know how people who are members of God’s family must live. God’s family is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
King James Bible
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
American Standard Version
but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how men ought to behave themselves in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Bible in Basic English
But if I am long in coming, this will make clear to you what behaviour is right for men in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of what is true.
Douay-Rheims Bible
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Darby Bible Translation
but if I delay, in order that thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God’s house, which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth.
English Revised Version
but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how men ought to behave themselves in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Tyndale New Testament
And if I come not, that thou mayst yet have knowledge how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the congregation of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth.
Weymouth New Testament
But, for fear I may be hindered, I now write, so that you may have rules to guide you in dealing with God’s household. For this is what the Church of the ever-living God is, and it is the pillar and foundation-stone of the truth.
Webster’s Bible Translation
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
World English Bible
but if I wait long, that you may know how men ought to behave themselves in the house of God, which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. Paul’s Letter to Titus
Young’s Literal Translation
and if I delay, that thou mayest know how it behoveth thee to conduct thyself in the house of God, which is an assembly of the living God – a pillar and foundation of the truth,
bible.cc/1_timothy/3-15.htm
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2ndGen
Guest
Well, it’s better said that you limit your definition of “church” to one or two meanings while the dictionary has 25 meanings.
Scripturally, the word church has been used to described more than two meanings (Jesus as The Church, The Church as the community of Christians, a “physical” church, etc…).
When discussing history before the 16th century, your definition didn’t exist. The Church simply meant Catholics. We tend to “not” change with the whims of man, but we stick staunchly with tradition as Paul and Jesus taught us to do so.
It was man that introduced the belief of “not” adhering to tradition.
But I’ll respect your religion’s definition of the word “church”. We’re all entitled to believe what we want to.
However, you cannot impose your definition (or the limits you impose on your meanings of the word) on Christianity as a whole.
One of The Definitions of “The Church” is literally, The Catholic Church, so we are not wrong in referring to The Catholic Church as “The Church”.
It is after all The Church spoken of in Scripture.
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Ginger2
Guest
First, I didn’t limit my definitions of “church” to 2 meanings. Church is also a building where people go to worship.
I was referring specifically to the RC statement “no salvation outside the church” Which to Catholics means membership in the Catholic denomination.
To protestants no salvation outside the church means no salvation apart from God through Christ Jesus.
The first I heard it said was Jesus, Matthew 15
Why do you suppose Protestants say “We believe in one Holy Catholic Church” when we recite the Apostle’s Creed?
The word “catholic” originally meant Universal. The RCC changed the meaning to refer to a denomination. Today it refers to all Catholic denominations - even those who deny certain doctrines of the RC.
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colliric
Guest
I’m pretty sure this is incorrect. The sacrament of baptism is required for salvation, it is an essential element with perhaps two exceptions, which is of cause “baptism by desire” when someone wants to be baptised but for some reason dies before it can be administered and the other one is when the unborn child is aborted. The church teaches that SOME protestant baptisms are Valid baptisms(these are baptisms that have occured “in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit”). Because baptism enters you into a state of grace, if anyone including a protestant, was to pass away still in that state of grace they will be saved and even after some time if they do not deny their christian faith(even if they do not become catholic… so long as they are not anti-catholic) they could indeed be saved by God.
The church teaches that a child under the age of reasoning cannot truly commit a sin because they do not know what sin actually is yet, so if a child under the age of reasoning dies, they could definatly be saved by god(But baptism probally helps kids too so they should be baptised anyway just in case… In fact i remember reading somewhere that a Parent’s decisions can affect the state of their child, so yes it is preferential to baptise).
By the very nature of the church’s teaching it is NOT only catholics who will be saved and therefore catholics who think that need to be corrected because after all salvation isn’t even assured for Catholics themselves unless they are in a state of grace(and only God truly knows that, so we have no right to comment on the salvational state of others… Matthew 7:1).
The main diffrence between catholic and protestant beliefs on salvation is that catholics believe the state of grace can be LOST after baptism has occured and it can be refound through being like the prodigal son in Jesus’ narrative, and choosing to confess our sins to God through the process that we believe Jesus left for us, confession. This is paramount to catholics and it is something I plan on doing regularily(I am a Candidate).
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2ndGen
Guest
No salvation outside of The Church?
Wrong. You’ve been misindoctrinated to believe that Catholics believe that salvation comes only through The Catholic Church.
Check this for clarification: catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp
As for The Catholic Church changing the definition of the word “katolicos”, it was the Primitive Church that did this long before what you know as The Catholic Church was formed:
“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).
Again, in your saying “today, it means…” you show that it is you who changes definitions. The Christian Church has always been called The Catholic Church.
(Unless you can produce some historical evidence that Protestant denominations existed before 110 AD)
You’re being a European Post 16th Century Religioius Creation doesn’t make you any less a Christian. It just means that you belong to a sect of Christianity that was founded by a man.
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
There are several false assumptions to correct here.
You are saying that “Holy Catholic Church” and the RCC (as you call it) are two different things. They are not. Protestants scholars and ministers changed that meaning to justify their own personal beliefs. Find a RCC document showing this change, if that is what you intend to prove.
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2ndGen
Guest
Fact is, part of the foundings of Protestantism had alot to do with the fact that the authority of The Church lay in Rome. These “protestors” couldn’t stand taking directions from what they came to regard derogatorily as “romans” and “papists”.
This has an aire of racism and/or nationalism. They proudly went on to attach their nationality to their faiths’ names (Anglican Church, African Methodists, etc…) and replaced all of The Church Clergy with "regional’ clergy.
The Christian Church has always been known as The Catholic Church. It has always been a “universal” Church. Jesus didn’t tell us to form churches based on regions or nationalities or races for that matter. In some Protestant churches, they don’t allow persons of different races or ethnic backrounds. No Catholic Church does this.
In fact, The Catholic Church is exploding in Africa (where The Church was initially strengthened and where it bore some our greatest Saints).
The Catholic Church is truly universal in every sense of the word.
And I believe that “that’” how Jesus would’ve wanted it.
Amen.
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2ndGen
Guest
“Why do you suppose Protestants say “We believe in one Holy Catholic Church” when we recite the Apostle’s Creed?”
I’d like to believe that she left out the word “Apostolic” by mistake and not that she purposely left it out because their church “wasn’t” founded by one of The Apostles or because they “don’t” believe that it is Apostolic.
E
epostle
Guest
First, the Catholic Church recognizes all baptized Christians as brothers and sisters in the Lord. Everything that is true in other communites came from the Catholic Church, and no other.
However, ecclesial communites cannot be called a “Church” in the biblical and historical sense. A valid priesthood and sacrifice are consitutional elements for a church to be a “Church” as understood by the Church, who gets her teaching from the Apostles, who gets their teachings from Christ, who gets His teachings from God. That has never changed.
The Church is an extension of the Incarnation united by the Eucharist. Remove the Eucharist, you remove unity. I think it is this removal that has caused more division than sola scriptura. ONE BREAD, ONE BODY. Not stones turned into bread.
However, ecclesial communites cannot be called a “Church” in the biblical and historical sense. A valid priesthood and sacrifice are consitutional elements for a church to be a “Church” as understood by the Church, who gets her teaching from the Apostles, who gets their teachings from Christ, who gets His teachings from God. That has never changed.
The Church is an extension of the Incarnation united by the Eucharist. Remove the Eucharist, you remove unity. I think it is this removal that has caused more division than sola scriptura. ONE BREAD, ONE BODY. Not stones turned into bread.
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2ndGen
Guest
Amen.
I’ll even take it farther back…
Exodus. God orders Moses to establish His Priesthood and details how they are to be ordained as well as what impliments are to be used in His Church (altar, anointing oil, incense, candles, etc…).
True. To be united “fully” to Christ, you must partake of His Body literally and believe in His words when He said that one could not come to HIm without partaking of His holy body and blood.
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Ginger2
Guest
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Sean_Boyle
Guest
Very true! Why are you still protesting Christ and his Church, then?
For most protestants they would rather choose to follow their own beliefs as they understand them than to submit to the will of God’s physical presents on earth, The Catholic Church.
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