Another Question About Hell

[steve_b]

It is the thinking of all Jewish groups, although I can never speak for individual Jews, some of whom don’t believe in a Messiah at all.

I’m curious,

• are those the old sadducees
• what would you estimate is their % of the whole of Judaism.

m:

Salvation has a different meaning in Judaism compared to its meaning in Christianity, including Catholicism, and the Messiah was prophesied to be a man, not a god. Even the two-Messiah concept, which claims that one Messiah is a warrior while the other is a holy man does not refer to Messiah as G-d.

A quick look at a few passages that give us some context. [http://www.catholicbible101.com/otpropheciesofjesus.htm (http://www.catholicbible101.com/otpropheciesofjesus.htm)

As an aside, in the beginning, Christianity and Catholicism

• is synonomous
• was 100% Jewish. (Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Peter, Paul, James, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke, etc etc etc…

Peter was the one to open the faith up to Gentiles. It was no longer 100% Jewish
m:

Of course, the proof-texts in the Prophets portion of the Hebrew Bible, including Isaiah, Zechariah, and elsewhere are fiercely debated by Jewish and Christian scholars regarding their meaning.

Nothing new there. Arguments occured during Jesus day, and continued throughout the next 2000 years. I suspect arguments will go on till the end of time. However, only during a person’s life, will they have the opportunity to do what is necessary for their soul to be saved. Not on their terms but on God’s terms.
m:

However, the Jewish interpretation remains to this day: there is no revision of the meaning of Maschiach (Messiah) from ancient times to the present. Atonement and forgiveness from sin can also be achieved today as in the past, with the exception of animal sacrifice: namely, by means of prayer, good deeds, and seeking forgiveness from those whom we have wronged. By leading a life of moral rectitude as best we can, as specified in the Torah, one can avoid hell and attain heaven.

Until the destruction of the Temple in 70 a.d., the Jews needed a priesthood. What for? What changed in Jewish covenental theology?
m:

However, as I have pointed out numerous times on other threads, personal salvation in the World to Come is not the focus in Judaism; rather, obeying G-d’s Word and drawing closer to G-d by means of one’s moral behavior toward others (humans as well as animals) is the major concern. Moral behavior, consisting essentially of the love of G-d and neighbor, is its own reward.

God said a messiah was needed and would come. God doesn’t do anything needlessly. What you describe as necessary now, wasn’t sufficient for the Hebrew in the Hebrew scriptures, what we call the OT. Weren’t Jews required to follow **all **613 laws of Moses [http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm (http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm) not just some of them …right? Who can obey all those laws perfectly?
m:

Gehenna is thought of as a kind of Purgatory in which people’s sins are cleansed after their death; however, it is a limited period of time, no more than one year (in practice, 11 months) during which prayers are said for family members who have died.

I see where in current Jewish thought [Gehinnom (http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm#Gan)** , Hell,** See [Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife (http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm). ,[She’ol (http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm#Gan) lasts about 12 months. I also see that this is only one way of thinking by some. “sources differ on what happens at the end of those 12 months: some say that the wicked soul is utterly destroyed and ceases to exist while others say that the soul continues to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse.”

That tells me one opinion teaches the soul is not immortal, another opinion says the soul is immortal. It can’t be both. One is right the other is wrong. The problem I see, no ONE speaks for Judaism.

Jesus is Jewish. He taught that hell is permanent. Therefore He teaches the soul is also immortal. If something only lasts for 12 months and then it’s over, I wouldn’t think that needs a savior to be saved from that. otoh, if it is permanent, and as we can see there are those in Judaism who think it is, then they implicitly agree, they need a savior to save them from hell, and conform them to the one we are made to the image and likeness of.

 

[meltzerboy]

I am curious where in the Torah (old testament) it describes prayer and good deeds are used to remove sin

I didn’t intend this thread to be an apologetics discussion or debate. But since you asked: animal sacrifices were used almost exclusively for unintentional sins, not intentional sins, as Leviticus and Numbers state in several passages, as well as Psalms 32:5 and 51:16-19. Further, Hosea 14:3 writes of the effectiveness and importance of prayer. Even in the practice of animal sacrifices, the requirement was that they be preceded by prayer and seeking forgiveness for wrongdoing. And in I Kings, 8:46-50, Solomon states that synagogues are to be used for prayer by those people too distant from the Temple. Finally, there are verses in Isaiah in which prayer is said to remove the scarlet-red of one’s sins and make them pure and white as snow.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I didn’t intend this thread to be an apologetics discussion or debate. But since you asked:
animal sacrifices were used almost exclusively for unintentional sins, not intentional sins, as Leviticus and Numbers state in several passages, as well as Psalms 32:5 and 51:16-19. Further, Hosea 14:3 writes of the effectiveness and importance of prayer. Even during the practice of animal sacrifices, the requirement was that they be preceded by prayer and seeking forgiveness for wrongdoing. And in I Kings, 8:46-50, Solomon states that synagogues are to be used for prayer by those people too far removed from the Temple.

Thanks for the answer, I am not so much looking to debate, but learn in this area.

I always thought that animal sacrifice was primary and the others were secondary. And that on the day of atonement the high priest offerred one sacrifice for everyone.

“On this day shall atonment be made for you, to cleanse you; from all your sins you shall be clean before the Lord” (Lev 16:30).

I know things had to change after the temple was destroyed but I can’t help to find it interesting that within one generation of Christ destroying the need for the temple that the temple and practice of animal sacrifice was concluded.

As Christians we say of course, Christ is our high priest and offers one sacrifice for all!

 

[meltzerboy]

I’m curious,

• are those the old sadducees
• what would you estimate is their % of the whole of Judaism.

A quick look at a few passages that give us some context. [http://www.catholicbible101.com/otpropheciesofjesus.htm (http://www.catholicbible101.com/otpropheciesofjesus.htm)

As an aside, in the beginning, Christianity and Catholicism

• is synonomous
• was 100% Jewish. (Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Peter, Paul, James, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke, etc etc etc…

Peter was the one to open the faith up to Gentiles. It was no longer 100% Jewish

Nothing new there. Arguments occured during Jesus day, and continued throughout the next 2000 years. I suspect arguments will go on till the end of time. However, only during a person’s life, will they have the opportunity to do what is necessary for their soul to be saved. Not on their terms but on God’s terms.

Until the destruction of the Temple in 70 a.d., the Jews needed a priesthood. What for? What changed in Jewish covenental theology?

God said a messiah was needed and would come. God doesn’t do anything needlessly. What you describe as necessary now, wasn’t sufficient for the Hebrew in the Hebrew scriptures, what we call the OT. Weren’t Jews required to follow **all **613 laws of Moses [http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm (http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm) not just some of them …right? Who can obey all those laws perfectly?

I see where in current Jewish thought [Gehinnom (http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm#Gan)** , Hell,** See [Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife (http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm). ,[She’ol (http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm#Gan) lasts about 12 months. I also see that this is only one way of thinking by some. “sources differ on what happens at the end of those 12 months: some say that the wicked soul is utterly destroyed and ceases to exist while others say that the soul continues to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse.”

That tells me one opinion teaches the soul is not immortal, another opinion says the soul is immortal. It can’t be both. One is right the other is wrong. The problem I see, no ONE speaks for Judaism.

Jesus is Jewish. He taught that hell is permanent. Therefore He teaches the soul is also immortal. If something only lasts for 12 months and then it’s over, I wouldn’t think that needs a savior to be saved from that. otoh, if it is permanent, and as we can see there are those in Judaism who think it is, then they implicitly agree, they need a savior to save them from hell, and conform them to the one we are made to the image and likeness of.

Some Reform Jews (my group) do not believe in the coming of the Messiah, while others, including myself, do. They may have that much in common with the ancient Sadducees, but very little else. Judaism, in all its forms today, is based on Pharasaic tradition. Yes, all 613 laws are meant to be practiced. However, the ones relating to the Temple cannot be practiced NOW, but may be reinstated according to some in the Orthodox Jewish community, once the Messiah comes. Meanwhile, one does the best one can in practicing the Law, trusting that G-d understands our imperfections and will forgive us, as He clearly states He will, provided we attempt to do better the next time. The Jews had a priesthood up until the destruction of the Temple. However, as I stated in my earlier post, there were also synagogues at the time, in which people who could not travel to the Temple, prayed for forgiveness from sin. Even in the Temple, prayer was the major means of atonement. While the coming of the Messiah is hoped for at the end of times, it is still not the major focus in Judaism: rather, studying and living by the Torah is, and this study and way of life is not meant to be discontinued even in the Messianic age.

 

[steve_b]

Some** Reform** Jews (my group) do not believe in the coming of the Messiah, while others, including myself, do. They may have that much in common with the ancient Sadducees, but very little else. Judaism, in all its forms today, is based on Pharasaic tradition. Yes, all 613 laws are meant to be practiced. However, the ones relating to the Temple cannot be practiced NOW, but may be reinstated according to some in the** Orthodox** Jewish community, once the Messiah comes. Meanwhile, one does the best one can in practicing the Law, trusting that G-d understands our imperfections and will forgive us, as He clearly states He will, provided we attempt to do better the next time. The Jews had a priesthood up until the destruction of the Temple. However, as I stated in my earlier post, there were also synagogues at the time, in which people who could not travel to the Temple, prayed for forgiveness from sin. Even in the Temple, prayer was the major means of atonement. While the coming of the Messiah is hoped for at the end of times, it is still not the major focus in Judaism: rather, studying and living by the Torah is, and this study and way of life is not meant to be discontinued even in the Messianic age.

If we eliminate the Sadducees, does that leave 3 traditions in Judaism or are there more than that?

St Paul for example was a Pharasee. He was Rabii Gamaleal’s top student. Paul sure believed in the permanence of hell. Which tradition in Judaism today, believes in the permanence of hell?

 

[meltzerboy]

If we eliminate the Sadducees, does that leave 3 traditions in Judaism or are there more than that?

St Paul for example was a Pharasee. He was Rabii Gamaleal’s top student. Paul sure believed in the permanence of hell. Which tradition in Judaism today, believes in the permanence of hell?

I’m glad we’re back to talking about hell. I’m interested mainly in the Catholic position on this topic; but OK, for Judaism as a whole, the permanence or non-permanence of hell is not discussed much at all. In fact, the notion of hell is not discussed much either. If there is a “place” called hell, it involves punishment, to be sure; however, according to Judaism, hell is mainly conceived of as a state of separation from G-d. It may also be the case, as you noted, that truly evil people, who cannot be cleansed by means of Purgatory, have their souls annihilated without suffering additional torment. The reason why Judaism is not definitive on this point concerning the nature of hell is that it is not revealed in the Torah, and (Orthodox) Judaism adopts only what is specified in the Torah (Written Law) and the Talmud (Oral Law). Therefore, hell, the same as salvation in the Christian sense, is simply not a topic of that much interest, and for Orthodox Jews too much speculation is not permitted.

Although modern-day Judaism derives largely from the Pharisaic tradition (I say “largely” because there are also the Karaite Jews, who do not accept the Oral Law at all and, further, have quite different interpretations of the Written Law; as well as the Nazarene Jews, who accept Jesus as the Messiah, but not G-d; and, in addition, different varieties of Messianic Jews), the movements within Judaism are diverse: several types of Orthodox Judaism, as well as Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanist, and others. It is not one unified movement. Nonetheless, there are certain fundamental principles that all Jews agree on.

 

[BlaconPaul]

Shalom Meltzerboy, if I may ask a quick question:
I saw (admittedly in a tv show, so not necessarily accurate!) a Rabbi, stating something to the effect of “purgatory? No, that’s a Roman Catholic belief, we don’t believe that”. So my question is about the year (I think you stated 11 months) of being cleansed of sin in hell/purgatori/gehenna, is that something all jewish faithful believe, or only certain groups? If so, which?
Have found this thread really interesting, and i’m sorry for derailing your question about our beliefs!!
Thanks
G-d bless

Pray for Peace

 

[meltzerboy]

Shalom Meltzerboy, if I may ask a quick question:
I saw (admittedly in a tv show, so not necessarily accurate!) a Rabbi, stating something to the effect of “purgatory? No, that’s a Roman Catholic belief, we don’t believe that”. So my question is about the year (I think you stated 11 months) of being cleansed of sin in hell/purgatori/gehenna, is that something all jewish faithful believe, or only certain groups? If so, which?
Have found this thread really interesting, and i’m sorry for derailing your question about our beliefs!!
Thanks
G-d bless

Pray for Peace

Perhaps the rabbi meant that Jews don’t believe in an indefinite period of time for purgatory, and also the fact Jews don’t use that particular term. However, there is a one-year period of prayer for the deceased in an effort to remember and respect their lives as well as ask G-d to be merciful toward them. This is similar to the Catholic concept of purgatory although not identical. The reason the period of prayer and mourning is customarily only 11 months rather than a full year is that one is hopeful the person was not so evil that they would require a whole year of prayers.

 

[steve_b]

for Judaism as a whole, the permanence or non-permanence of hell is not discussed much at all. In fact, the notion of hell is not discussed much either.

though

in Sheol, a land of darkness ( Ez. 28:8; 31:14; Jb. 10:21; 38:17; Ps 30:10; 88:7, 13), a pit from which one cannot reascend (Jb. 7:9), a place in which it is impossible to praise God ( Is 38:18; Ps 6:6).

Isa. 66:15-24. the worm won’t die the fire won’t be quenched
m:

If there is a “place” called hell, it involves punishment, to be sure; however, according to Judaism, hell is mainly conceived of as a state of separation from G-d.

And that seperation is permanent…right?

The objection is made that there is no proportion between the brief moment of sin and an eternal punishment. But why not? We certainly admit a proportion between a momentary good deed and its eternal reward…right? Sin is an offence against the infinite authority of God, and the sinner is in some way aware of this, though maybe imperfectly. Accordingly there is in sin an approximation to infinite malice which deserves an eternal punishment. And we see that even in the Hebrew texts, example Isaiah 66::23-24, Job 7:9 etc
m:

It may also be the case, as you noted, that truly evil people, who cannot be cleansed by means of Purgatory, have their souls annihilated without suffering additional torment.

Actually that wasn’t from me, it was the sentement of the link I provided from Judaism 101.
m:

The reason why Judaism is not definitive on this point concerning the nature of hell is that it is not revealed in the Torah, and (Orthodox) Judaism adopts only what is specified in the Torah (Written Law) and the Talmud (Oral Law). Therefore, hell, the same as salvation in the Christian sense, is simply not a topic of that much interest, and for Orthodox Jews too much speculation is not permitted.

What about the prophets? Are they not considered? I thought the Pharasee considered the law & the prophets. It is my understanding the Sadducees only considered the law and only the 1st 5 books of Moses. They didn’t believe in an after life as a result. Am I correct?

Even if hell is not treated in depth, it IS revealed. And it is also revealed there is no getting out of it .
m:

Although modern-day Judaism derives largely from the Pharisaic tradition (I say “largely” because there are also the Karaite Jews, who do not accept the Oral Law at all and, further, have quite different interpretations of the Written Law; as well as the Nazarene Jews, who accept Jesus as the Messiah, but not G-d; and, in addition, different varieties of Messianic Jews), the movements within Judaism are diverse: several types of Orthodox Judaism, as well as Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanist, and others. It is not one unified movement. Nonetheless, there are certain fundamental principles that all Jews agree on.

What are those certain principles that all Jews agree on? What is this agreement based on?

Given such diversity of thought and disagreements in Judaism, they all can’t be true. As in Christianity, those who broke from the Catholic Church, they might have some truths they take from Catholicism, but it also means the rest of what they believe is false.

 

[Nita]

Thanks for the answer, I am not so much looking to debate, but learn in this area.

I always thought that animal sacrifice was primary and the others were secondary. And that on the day of atonement the high priest offerred one sacrifice for everyone.

“On this day shall atonment be made for you, to cleanse you; from all your sins you shall be clean before the Lord” (Lev 16:30).

I know things had to change after the temple was destroyed but I can’t help to find it interesting that within one generation of Christ destroying the need for the temple that the temple and practice of animal sacrifice was concluded.

As Christians we say of course, Christ is our high priest and offers one sacrifice for all!

The following “Atonement” entry in the online Jewish Encylcopedia is very informative.
jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/2092-atonement

 

[Semangelof]

I’m glad we’re back to talking about hell. I’m interested mainly in the Catholic position on this topic; but OK, for Judaism as a whole, the permanence or non-permanence of hell is not discussed much at all.

Heh, I think a lot of us were hoping you had some better insight than us on the topic. The NT mentions it quite a lot and I still don’t comprehend it. I know I will never understand half the Bible without understanding Judaism so I can’t tell you how much I appreciate you being here.

 

[meltzerboy]

Heh, I think a lot of us were hoping you had some better insight than us on the topic. The NT mentions it quite a lot and I still don’t comprehend it. I know I will never understand half the Bible without understanding Judaism so I can’t tell you how much I appreciate you being here.

Thank you, but I’m hardly a qualified spokesperson for all of Judaism. You’d probably do better going online to several Jewish websites such as Judaism 101, About Judaism, Virtual Jewish Library, and the Jewish Encyclopedia, if you want to learn more.

 

[fred_conty]

I have only read some of the postings here but I will try to be of help in answering some of the items often mentioned about hell.

First, it is a mystery, but still real. We won’t understand everything because it wasn’t revealed to us all that goes on in hell, but just some things, enough to know that it is worth any kind of deprivation on earth to avoid it.

Obviously there is the problem of this verses God’s love and mercy. Our answer is freedom of choice. But to some it dosen’t seem freedom of choice because they want to be free in another way. That is to have the cake and eat it too. And they don’t understand the nature of sin and its effects on us. Namely, blindness to truth and good, and weakness to performance of goodness.

Second, there have been a lot of ideas about hell presented from the human imagination which is not in revelation or in the teaching of the church. This adds to the confusion tho it is certain that it is terrible.

Third, there have been pictures of the tortures that people suffer in hell which some of the saints have seen in visions. These too, tho from saints, are not church teachings, but extremely frightening, but still may be only a visionary’s way of making a point.

Fourth, the church has stated clearly that once in hell always in hell (OHAH). And that it is painful suffering which does not have breaks, vacations, or weekend holidays. And that’s about it. But really, do we need to know more than that? (Unless we plan on going there or want to be sick.)

The church is open to other ideas anyone may have but rarely denies or affirms them.
The whole mission of the church is to save people from going there if they will listen.
The whole mission of Christ’s death was to wipe sin out so they would not have to go there.
So this subject is of the utmost importance.

The only beings we know for sure are in hell are the fallen angels.

Just some thoughts.​

“Once we were people afraid, lost in the night. Then by your cross we were saved.” (hymn)

 

[meltzerboy]

I have only read some of the postings here but I will try to be of help in answering some of the items often mentioned about hell.

First, it is a mystery, but still real. We won’t understand everything because it wasn’t revealed to us all that goes on in hell, but just some things, enough to know that it is worth any kind of deprivation on earth to avoid it.

Obviously there is the problem of this verses God’s love and mercy. Our answer is freedom of choice. But to some it dosen’t seem freedom of choice because they want to be free in another way. That is to have the cake and eat it too. And they don’t understand the nature of sin and its effects on us. Namely, blindness to truth and good, and weakness to performance of goodness.

Second, there have been a lot of ideas about hell presented from the human imagination which is not in revelation or in the teaching of the church. This adds to the confusion tho it is certain that it is terrible.

Third, there have been pictures of the tortures that people suffer in hell which some of the saints have seen in visions. These too, tho from saints, are not church teachings, but extremely frightening, but still may be only a visionary’s way of making a point.

Fourth, the church has stated clearly that once in hell always in hell (OHAH). And that it is painful suffering which does not have breaks, vacations, or weekend holidays. And that’s about it. But really, do we need to know more than that? (Unless we plan on going there or want to be sick.)

The church is open to other ideas anyone may have but rarely denies or affirms them.
The whole mission of the church is to save people from going there if they will listen.
The whole mission of Christ’s death was to wipe sin out so they would not have to go there.
So this subject is of the utmost importance.

The only beings we know for sure are in hell are the fallen angels.

Just some thoughts.​

“Once we were people afraid, lost in the night. Then by your cross we were saved.” (hymn)

A very informative synopsis. Thank you.

Now that you mention no holidays or vacations in hell, I wonder what the Jewish viewpoint, if any, is about pain and torment in hell on the Sabbath since traditionally the Sabbath breaks any period of mourning. Probably a question for the Jewish Forum!

 

[meltzerboy]

The following “Atonement” entry in the online Jewish Encylcopedia is very informative.
jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/2092-atonement

Yes, this is packed with detailed information. Thank you.