Answer to Born Again Bash on Catholicism

[utunumsint]

I feel frustrated and sickened. Here’s my “friends” response: "I know God by the Word which he gave us and we will be judged on. Not the Catholic church rules John. You love your tradition I think more than Jesus. He said follow me! Read your bible."

I gave him facts and scripture…and he tells me some rhetoric he;'s appearently trained to use. I told him his words in his e-mail there we’re quite judgemental, and thus not of Christ. I told him to step back and read what i gave him…

His motivation is to try and “Save” you from something he thinks is evil. His intentions are good, but he acts out of ignorance. The knowledge he has of the Catholic Faith is clearly warped and distorted. You wont be able to show him the light with one email, however good it may be.

But, its a start. If nothing else, he may read a few lines from Church Militants links, which will give him a moment of pause, and perhaps rethink his methods. Maybe it will lead him to want to learn more about this church he considers to be so evil.

Its a good start, I think. Keep your peace. Your anger will only counteract the good you’ve done if you let it.

God bless,
Ut

 

[zian]

His motivation is to try and “Save” you from something he thinks is evil. His intentions are good, but he acts out of ignorance. The knowledge he has of the Catholic Faith is clearly warped and distorted. You wont be able to show him the light with one email, however good it may be.

But, its a start. If nothing else, he may read a few lines from Church Militants links, which will give him a moment of pause, and perhaps rethink his methods. Maybe it will lead him to want to learn more about this church he considers to be so evil.

Its a good start, I think. Keep your peace. Your anger will only counteract the good you’ve done if you let it.

God bless,
Ut

I second this good advice. If you are feeling anger or frustration with your friend … step back, take a moment, and pray. Then pick up your own cross and follow Jesus. Do you feel the weight of the beam pressing down on your back? Do you feel the splinters from the wood sawing into your own flesh? Then remember that your friend has his own crosses to bear. You’ve tried to lighten some of his burden by trying to correct his errors of understanding. He may simply need time, and patient, persistent urging to further seek the truth. Then again, perhaps he will prefer to remain ignorant. If, at the end of the day, you know that you have done your best, be satified with that. And pray!

 

[po18guy]

I feel like I should defend my faith, but more (name removed by moderator)ortantly give him The Truth. Isn’t that our obligation, even in the face of misinfomation?

Other than the fact that everything in the email is false, I don’t know what to say. Get a copy of Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism. It specifically answers these false accusations. Available here: shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-B0121.html?L+scstore+zrtt1254ff3a823a+1234887897

Remember that your friend implicitly believes and trusts his pastor, who told him all of this, as if he were the “Pope” of their church. He is badly mislead, I hope through ignorance and not ill will. The absolute best you can do for your friend is to pray. Only the Holy Spirit can illuminate certain hearts. The sharpest argument of the most brilliant Catholic apologist will be met with “That’s not true! My pastor says…”

The Holy Spirit through prayer.

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

Yes, this was something where I wouldn’t even know where to begin,and I wonder what his agenda could possibly be…I wish I could just give him a link to facutally dispute it, but I could certainly just cut and paste from the Answers section, as was suggested.
Also…I agree not to engage in a garbage match, which is what it seems this e-mail tries to beget.

Tell him you are praying for him and block his emails. No sense in you being tempted into a lack of charity.

These are tough nuts to crack, figuratively speaking. The simple fact is that he splits his time between hating the Catholic Church and loving Christ. You have the distinct advantage of loving Christ 100% of the time.

 

[jeaniemarie]

John121212
I’m so sorry - I know how that feels. I do want to add my amen to what the others have said. Having been among the “anti-papists” for many years I’ve found that their hatred of the Church is truly founded on ignorance and his seeming attack on you is, in his mind, an act of evangelism. Chances are he truly believes that you are in danger of hell.

Church Militant gave you some excellent advice - just love him and love Christ and pray pray pray. Many of my friends who are anti-Catholic no longer try to persuade me to leave because they see my walk with God. You can’t argue with results - not that I’m perfect, of course - but they see that I love God and seek Him out and they see the fruit of that in my life.

Like any prejudice - their hatred for the Church is handed down to them by parents and/or pastors they respect and is steeped in ignorance, misinformation and misunderstanding. It runs deep and is not always rational or logical. I’ve found that even when I win the argument, my friends still will not accept the truth.

“You love them, I’ll save them.”

 

[john121212]

He must be stweing, as he sent me this e-maillast night:

**Many will say to me Lord Lord on that day and I will say depart from me … you who practice lawlessness I never knew you. Do you know who’s words those are? Is there anything in the bible about denomination? It doesn’t matter who started or who was 1st … do you think the apostle Paul or Peter were Catholic… that is man changing and making something called religion. In Italy the pope is treated like he is a god almost and the bible forbids this type of thing… he is not God … he is a man and a man’s job is to go out into the world and make disciples of jesus christ … until the day of heaven.
**

And lastly he sent me this:

I understand you will continue to show me catholic rituals and ideas. My question is do you put these before the Word of God? “the bible” why is it you don’t read the book for yourself or does your religion forbid you too… and only says a priest can? God never said you have to follow a religion he wants you to know him through being obedient to the word he has given us. It’s just that simple… and heaven is a narrow gate… it’s all by faith and grace in jesus christ

Thanks jeaniemarie, po18guy, zian, utunumsint, Church Militant…it tears me up that not only is he IGNORING what Im sending him…he seems almost brainwashed to trained responses. No more effort on my part will seem to do anything…at least verbally. I need to continue to pray for him.

 

[jeaniemarie]

john121212
My favorite response to the last thing he posted is “where did the bible come from?”. If you are interested in persuing this with your friend, read up on Sola Scriptura. I bought into that for a while but as I came back to the Church I read what the church had to say about it and it made perfect sense.

This will also be a way to gauge your friend’s intellectual honesty. Many of these anti-Catholics absolutely refuse to acknowledge that the reason we have the Bible as we know it today is because of the Catholic church. This is historical fact and easily verified. If he refuses to concede that fact, there is really no point in arguing with him. Just love him and pray for him. (Tho you may have to do that from a distance if he continues to attack your faith and refuses to be intellectually honest in doing so).

I will pray that you allow the Holy Spirit to guide you - that you know when and what to speak, and when to remain silent. And I will pray that the Holy Spirit softens your friend’s heart that he may come to a fuller understanding of the many graces of God. And finally, I will pray that God keeps you in perfect peace.

Jeanie

 

[Church_Militant]

I feel frustrated and sickened. Here’s my “friends” response: "I know God by the Word which he gave us and we will be judged on. Not the Catholic church rules John. You love your tradition I think more than Jesus. He said follow me! Read your bible."

You might point out that you do read your Bible, and that while you’re on that subject he needs to show you where exactly in the Word of God it specifically tells us that the Bible is the only authority for what Christians believe. It’s not there.

I gave him facts and scripture…and he tells me some rhetoric he;'s appearently trained to use. I told him his words in his e-mail there we’re quite judgemental, and thus not of Christ. I told him to step back and read what i gave him…

You can only hope.

 

[Zooey]

Who? Me?

Yes, you, Michael; you’re a:thumbsup: deer rifle, and John’s “friend” is only an itty-bitty:wink: chipmunck.

I feel frustrated and sickened. Here’s my “friends” response: "I know God by the Word which he gave us and we will be judged on. Not the Catholic church rules John. You love your tradition I think more than Jesus. He said follow me! Read your bible."

I gave him facts and scripture…and he tells me some rhetoric he;'s appearently trained to use. I told him his words in his e-mail there we’re quite judgemental, and thus not of Christ. I told him to step back and read what i gave him…

You said the truth. He is talking about *his" interpretation of the Bible. But he des not want to hear your interpretation, because it interferes with his prejudices.

He must be stweing, as he sent me this e-maillast night:

Many will say to me Lord Lord on that day and I will say depart from me … you who practice lawlessness I never knew you. Do you know who’s words those are?

“Yes,Jesus Christ; and that is why I am studying to show myself approved unto God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed”.

**

Is there anything in the bible about denomination? It doesn’t matter who started or who was 1st

**
“If it does not matter, why are you angry when we disagree?”

**

… do you think the apostle Paul or Peter were Catholic…

** “Yes,both of them; there was no church except Catholic in their days.”

**

that is man changing and making something called religion.

** “Do you know what “religion” means? It means to join together what has been separated. Man is “religered” [Latin word for “rejoined” or “reunited”] back to God by the sacrificial death of Our Lord Jesus Christ!”

**

In Italy the pope is treated like he is a god almost and the bible forbids this type of thing… he is not God …

** “No one believes that he is God, & no one treats the pope like a god. He is treated with respect because he is fine Christian man with a hard job–leading the largest group of Christians in the world.”

**

he is a man and a man’s job is to go out into the world and make disciples of jesus christ … until the day of heaven.

**
Yes, and that is what the pope does. That is his fulltime job!!

And lastly he sent me this:
** My question is do you put these before the Word of God? “the bible” why is it you don’t read the book for yourself or does your religion forbid you too… and only says a priest can?**

Actually, Catholics have always been advised to read the Bible as much as possible!!
Every Catholic Bible has a section printed in the front, advising all Catholics to read for at least 15 minutes a day, and 30 is preferred!!"

**

It’s just that simple… and heaven is a narrow gate… it’s all by faith and grace in jesus christ

**
“Yes, that is Catholic doctrine too”.

Thanks jeaniemarie, po18guy, zian, utunumsint, Church Militant…it tears me up that not only is he IGNORING what Im sending him…he seems almost brainwashed to trained responses. No more effort on my part will seem to do anything…at least verbally. I need to continue to pray for him.

I think he has been:crying: “brainwashed”. I know people like that…Some of them are in my own family.
Yes!! Pray. And don’t let him get to you. He must be a very sad, angry person.

 

[Church_Militant]

He must be stweing, as he sent me this e-maillast night:

Many will say to me Lord Lord on that day and I will say depart from me … you who practice lawlessness I never knew you. Do you know who’s words those are? Is there anything in the bible about denomination?

The passage is all but irrelevant to his point. I’m surprised that he didn’t cite chapter & verse. (It’s Matthew 7:16-32 BTW) It’s also taken totally out of context and has nothing whatever to do with “denominations”, but he won’t like the rest of this response because it refutes his (probable) belief in Sola Fide. Look at what Our Lord actually says in this passage. 12 All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets. and also, 24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof. So much for salvation by faith alone according to the Word of God, right?

It doesn’t matter who started or who was 1st … do you think the apostle Paul or Peter were Catholic…

Well as a matter of fact, yeah. I do. Look at St. Paul’s discourse on communion in 1st Corinthians 10:16 and 11:23-30. That’s about as catholic a definition of the Eucharist as you’ll ever find.

St. Peter: Look at the Gospel that he preached (Under the fullness of the Holy Spirit) on the day of Pentecost. Acts 2:38-39. [38] And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
[39] For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.” He tells them straight off that they must repent and be baptized in order to come into the Christian faith. That’s Catholic, not Protestant (in most cases).

I could go on and show passages from other apostles and disciples who make clearly Catholic statements like these.

that is man changing and making something called religion.

A good description of the fact that men invented the doctrines that are the basis of virtually every n-C doctrine.

In Italy the pope is treated like he is a god almost and the bible forbids this type of thing… he is not God … he is a man and a man’s job is to go out into the world and make disciples of jesus christ … until the day of heaven.

This is just rhetoric. I’ve never seen His Holiness treated like God.

The Bible actually forbids men making up their own doctrines and taking books out of the scriptures, yet about 500 years ago that is precisely what happened.

Frankly, I think that the pope has been instrumental in the discipleship of more people than any other modern Christian. The last two in particular (since I know them best) certainly have done so.

And lastly he sent me this:

I understand you will continue to show me catholic rituals and ideas. My question is do you put these before the Word of God? “the bible” why is it you don’t read the book for yourself or does your religion forbid you too… and only says a priest can?

I don’t recall us offering anything that could even remotely be called “Catholic rituals”. In fact. I think we have offered support from the Word of God.

Again, the allegation that you don’t know the Bible, don’t read it, and even that we are forbidden to do so by the Church. Ludicrous, I know, but perhaps you can send him a link to the following thread & poll. Poll: Catholics: When did you last read the Bible? that will no doubt ruin his day.

God never said you have to follow a religion he wants you to know him through being obedient to the word he has given us. It’s just that simple… and heaven is a narrow gate… it’s all by faith and grace in jesus christ

(Weird that he doesn’t even capitalize the Lord’s name? Such a simple thing… )

No religion huh? James 1:26 And if any man think himself to be religious, not bridling his tongue, but deceiving his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. 27 Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one’s self unspotted from this world.

Thanks jeaniemarie, po18guy, zian, utunumsint, Church Militant…it tears me up that not only is he IGNORING what Im sending him…he seems almost brainwashed to trained responses. No more effort on my part will seem to do anything…at least verbally. I need to continue to pray for him.

Humbled to be of some small assistance. One last piece of scriptural insight. Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off even the dust of your feet, for a testimony against them.

 

[Church_Militant]

Zooey:
Yes, you, Michael; you’re a:thumbsup: deer rifle, and John’s “friend” is only an itty-bitty:wink: chipmunck.

I think I’ve heard everything now and I can die in peace.

 

[Zooey]

I think I’ve heard everything now and I can die in peace.

Well, I know from chipmuncks; I had one in my house this week, and I chased him out with my apron!!

 

[john121212]

Maybe this is getting predictable, but heres the last e-mail he’s sent:

**reformation.org/luther.html

This is how Christianity got started and why. It’s part of your history and very powerful information.
**

I told him I will not carry on anymore until he adresses the said points I sent him.

 

[jeaniemarie]

I told him I will not carry on anymore until he adresses the said points I sent him.

I think that’s wise.

 

[Zooey]

Maybe this is getting predictable, but heres the last e-mail he’s sent:

reformation.org/luther.html

This is how Christianity got started and why. It’s part of your history and very powerful information.

I told him I will not carry on anymore until he adresses the said points I sent him.

John, if that site is where he is getting his information, he is worse off than I thought! That whole site is a pack of lies & conspiracy theories…
They have a whole section called “Saint Anne Boleyn”…Ummm…Yeah. A saint who has an affair with her sister’s married boyfriend (who “happens to be” king of England)…And then, after he divorces his wife for her, he marries her, because she is pregnant & he hopes for a boy…
And when Queen Catherine died, their “Saint” Anne had a party & sent out invitations to celebrate that Catherine was finally dead…
(Queen Catherine of Aragon, now…Why she has never been proposed for canonization I cannot imagine. She was a truly devout woman of God, & I firmly believe that she is among the saints in Heaven!!)

You are doing just fine, you stick to your guns. If all this guy can dig up is all this old nonsense, he is too confused to hear common sense. Sheesh!!!http://bestsmileys.com/puking/1.gif “Saint Martin Luther”:dts: indeed! That whole story about him is nothing but lies & antiCatholic propaganda.

And you may tell him that you know that, because an Old-Fashioned “ Shouting” Methodist Girl told you so!!!

 

[Church_Militant]

Maybe this is getting predictable, but heres the last e-mail he’s sent:

reformation.org/luther.html

This is how Christianity got started and why. It’s part of your history and very powerful information.

I told him I will not carry on anymore until he adresses the said points I sent him.http://www.reformation.org/luther18.jpg

License to sin. Copy of the infamous Indulgence by Tetzel.
The Sale of Indulgences was started by Pope Alexander Borgia in the year 1500.

The keys are actually the keys of the SAFE or the STRONG BOX.

Why even talk to someone that is dumb enough to believe this kind of propaganda. Any Catholic that knows beans from his faith will see the GLARING hole in this.

And then of course there’s this…

German translation was the best in the world!!
The German translation of the Holy Scriptures was the best and most accurate translation since the Latin Italic version of 150 A.D. All the other version are copies of that masterpiece.

In 1522, Saint Martin returned to Wittenberg. This is where he completed his extraordinary translation of the Bible. The King James Bible is 75 per cent the work of English Reformer William Tyndale. Tyndale visited Luther here and Tyndale copied a lot from Luther. Even the notes on the margin of Tyndale’s Bible are exactly the same as Luther’s translation. He also had a tremendous influence on the Spanish translation as most educated Spaniards spoke German.

Oooookay… Best in the world huh? The fact is that Luther took liberties with his German translation including altering Romans 3:28 to add the German word for “alone” after For we hold that a man is justified by faith … even though he knew full well that there is nothing at all in the Greek text to justify that translation, but he had to have it to support his new doctrine of Sola Fide. When his disciples asked him about it after Catholics pointed that out he went off on them. Look here at what he said.

You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,’…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word ‘alone’ is not in the Latin or the Greek text (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127).

BTW, the site he’s linked you to is run by a conspiracy theorist. Probably time to just walk away.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Zooey:
Yes, you, Michael; you’re a:thumbsup: deer rifle, and John’s “friend” is only an itty-bitty:wink: chipmunck.

You said the truth. He is talking about *his" interpretation of the Bible. But he des not want to hear your interpretation, because it interferes with his prejudices.

“Yes,Jesus Christ; and that is why I am studying to show myself approved unto God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed”.

---

“If it does not matter, why are you angry when we disagree?”

** ** “Yes,both of them; there was no church except Catholic in their days.”

**** “Do you know what “religion” means? It means to join together what has been separated. Man is “religered” [Latin word for “rejoined” or “reunited”] back to God by the sacrificial death of Our Lord Jesus Christ!”

**** “No one believes that he is God, & no one treats the pope like a god. He is treated with respect because he is fine Christian man with a hard job–leading the largest group of Christians in the world.”

---

Yes, and that is what the pope does. That is his fulltime job!!

Actually, Catholics have always been advised to read the Bible as much as possible!!
Every Catholic Bible has a section printed in the front, advising all Catholics to read for at least 15 minutes a day, and 30 is preferred!!"

---

“Yes, that is Catholic doctrine too”.

I think he has been:crying: “brainwashed”. I know people like that…Some of them are in my own family.
Yes!! Pray. And don’t let him get to you. He must be a very sad, angry person.

John, there must be something very special about your friend. The Holy Spirit is definitely very involved as He has inspired Zooey to joing this debate. He is kinda my “Billy Graham” of apologetics. I don’t accept his choice of place to worship but he is both very smart man and good disciple of Christ. When Zooey and Church Militant speak, I listen.

John, I really urge you to always stay w/ this friend. God wants to accomplish something good with him and is using you for His purpose.

 

[po18guy]

Thanks jeaniemarie, po18guy, zian, utunumsint, Church Militant…it tears me up that not only is he IGNORING what Im sending him…he seems almost brainwashed to trained responses. No more effort on my part will seem to do anything…at least verbally. I need to continue to pray for him.

At this point, he sounds like a raving lunatic! Some kind of cultist, or ???. Patrick Madrid says prayer is the first place to start on the conversion process. Witness his book Search and Rescue. Conversion isn’t about winning arguments, but about prayer, witnessing Christ through your life, and knowledge of ideas that work. I highly recommend this book, as Patrick is one of the absolute best Catholic apologists. He’s even offering a free copy of both this book and Envoy magazine. Go here to get a copy of each: envoymagazine.com/

Christ’s peace.

 

[Gamera]

Try using anti-Catholic rhetoric in reverse.

Jesus Christ is the center of my life, and I trust Him and His word, not the man-made traditions of Protestantism. So, thanks for directing me to your website links, but I’d prefer to just keep reading my Bible, because I prefer God’s word to man’s word.

There’s something to be said for communicating with his lingo.

 

[po18guy]

Try using anti-Catholic rhetoric in reverse.

Jesus Christ is the center of my life, and I trust Him and His word, not the man-made traditions of Protestantism. So, thanks for directing me to your website links, but I’d prefer to just keep reading my Bible, because I prefer God’s word to man’s word.

There’s something to be said for communicating with his lingo.

Some teach that baptism is not needed. That is 100% non-biblical. It goes directly against Christ’s own words. Might ask him what John 3:3-5 actually mean.

Christ’s peace.