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- Status
D
dzheremi
Guest
Provide a source for this, please. I have already shared with Muslim Woman a verse in which Jesus Himself gives us the trinitarian formula that we use today. Not any Church council, though they may have officially affirmed it against the sort of heresies that were around in Muhammad’s time and centuries before…
No, it is not like celibacy. Celibacy is not required of the faithful like belief in the Trinity is. The Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox have married priests. They are still Christians, fully in line with apostolic tradition. Celibacy is a choice for those in the Roman Catholic Church who wish to best serve the Lord in the calling to which He has guided them.
And in Matthew 15:11 Jesus corrects the Pharisees in their understanding of the law when He says, “It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”
This definitively settles this issue for Christians. Though they may still choose to abstain from eating pork (I do, since I dislike it), it is no longer considered ritually unclean.
M
Muslim_Woman
Guest
Salaam/peace
The Doctrine of Trinity
Question
Jesus said; “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,” (Matthew 28:19); does this not prove that the `Doctrine of Trinity’ and its present day formula was communicated and promulgated by Jesus Christ himself?
Answer
With all due respect, we tend to disagree in view of the following compelling evidences:-
“And Peter said to them, `Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;…’” (Acts 2:38).
It is most unlikely that apostle Peter would have disobeyed the specific command of Jesus Christ for baptising in the three names and baptized them in the name of Jesus Christ, alone.
More on the Trinity Doctrine
Question
Apostle John in his first Epistle, chapter 5 and verse 7 wrote: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one.”; is this not a fair testimony to acknowledge the `Doctrine of Trinity’?
Answer
Notwithstanding the above rejections, the verse that follows the quoted text reads in KJV; “And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.” (1John5:8). Are these three witnesses “co-equal”? Can blood be substituted with water? Can water be regarded as the same in any respect with the Spirit?
Just as the spirit, the blood and the water are three separate entities, so are the first three witnesses, namely; the Father, the Son (Word, Logos) and the Holy Spirit (Ghost).
islam.thetruecall.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=24&mode=&order=0&thold=0
Common Christian Misbeliefs addressed in Question and Answer format
The Doctrine of Trinity
Question
Jesus said; “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,” (Matthew 28:19); does this not prove that the `Doctrine of Trinity’ and its present day formula was communicated and promulgated by Jesus Christ himself?
Answer
With all due respect, we tend to disagree in view of the following compelling evidences:-
- `Peake’s Commentary on the Bible’ published since 1919, is universally welcomed and considered to be the standard reference book for the students of the Bible. Commenting on the above verse it records; “This mission is described in the language of the church and most commentators doubt that the trinitarian formula was original at this point in Mt.'s Gospel, since the NT elsewhere does not know of such a formula and describes baptism as being performed in the name of the Lord Jesus (e.g. Ac. 2:38, 8:16, etc.).”
- Tom Harpur, author of several bestsellers and a former professor of New Testament, writes in his book `For Christ’s Sake’; “All but the most conservative of scholars agree that at least the latter part of this command was inserted later. The formula occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, and we know from the only evidence available (the rest of the New Testament) that the earliest Church did not baptise people using these words - baptism was “into” or “in” the name of Jesus alone.”
- The above command (authentic or otherwise) does not indicate that the three names mentioned in the formula are or were, “co- equal” in their status, as well as, were “co-eternal” in the time frame, to conform with the acknowledged `Doctrine of Trinity’.
- If the Father and His Son were both in “existence” from the Day One, and no one was, a micro second before or after, and, no one was “greater or lesser” in status, than why is one called the Father and the other His begotten Son?
- Did the act of “Begetting” take place? If YES, where was the “Begotten Son” before the act? If NO, why call him the “Begotten Son”?
“And Peter said to them, `Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;…’” (Acts 2:38).
It is most unlikely that apostle Peter would have disobeyed the specific command of Jesus Christ for baptising in the three names and baptized them in the name of Jesus Christ, alone.
More on the Trinity Doctrine
Question
Apostle John in his first Epistle, chapter 5 and verse 7 wrote: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one.”; is this not a fair testimony to acknowledge the `Doctrine of Trinity’?
Answer
- The text quoted does appear in the Kings James Version but has been omitted by most of the editors of the recent versions e.g. Revised Standard Version, New American Standard Bible, New English Bible, Phillips Modern English Bible, because the quoted text does not appear in the older Greek manuscripts.
- Renowned historian Edward Gibbon calls the addition a “Pious Fraud” in his famous history book `Decline and Fall of Roman Empire’.
- Peakes commentary on the subject reads; “The famous interpolation after “three witnesses” is not printed even in RSVn, and rightly. It cites the heavenly testimony of the Father, the logos, and the Holy Spirit, but is never used in the early trinitarian controversies. No respectable Greek MS contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th-cent. Latin text, it entered the Vulgate and finally the NT of Erasmus.”
Notwithstanding the above rejections, the verse that follows the quoted text reads in KJV; “And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.” (1John5:8). Are these three witnesses “co-equal”? Can blood be substituted with water? Can water be regarded as the same in any respect with the Spirit?
Just as the spirit, the blood and the water are three separate entities, so are the first three witnesses, namely; the Father, the Son (Word, Logos) and the Holy Spirit (Ghost).
islam.thetruecall.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=24&mode=&order=0&thold=0
I
inJESUS
Guest
what i find strange is that muhammad himself praised priests and monks:
And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.
And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.
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Sam_777
Guest
Although I agree with you on the pork part, but you misunderstood our fellow InJesus, she is not mocking anyone, indeed she is showing the truth here because Arabic is her native language and in my opinion she knows Islam better than “Zakir Naik”, that guy born in India, educated in India, has M.B.B.S in medicine from India, doesn’t know Arabic, I don’t have anything against India (indeed some of my best friends here in SA are from India) but you will not understand the depth and the truth about Islam unless you fluently know Arabic and have lived with Ishmael’s descendants for long time. I assure you that non of our Saudi Muslims will even read or consider any fatwa issued by him, they are using him to brainwash non-Arabic people in the west through his continuous propaganda about Islam.
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inJESUS
Guest
Muslim Woman,
since we are not people of the book, that is, there was no Bible dropping from heaven to launch Christinity but rather a church started by the apostle and their disciples in different lands and languages, let us see what the disciples taught in this regard:
Ignatius of Antioch (ca. AD. 107-112)
For those things which the prophets announced, saying, “Until He come for whom it is reserved, and He shall be the expectation of the Gentiles,” have been fulfilled in the Gospel, [our Lord saying,] “Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” All then are good together, the law, the prophets, the apostles, the whole company [of others] that have believed through them: only if we love one another. (Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians);
and one wonders, who knows more about the apostles’ teachings, Ignatius who was John’s disciple of the 1st century, or the 20th century figures you spend your time reading, instead of studying the church history?
Irenaeus Against Heresies Book III (ca. 130-200)
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He hath anointed Me.” That is the Spirit of whom the Lord declares, “For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God, He said to them, “**Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” **
Tertullian (ca. 160-220)
Accordingly, after one of these had been struck off, He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to “go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost.” Immediately, therefore, so did the apostles, whom this designation indicates as “the sent.” … (Tertullian The Prescription Against Heretics)
by the washing away of sins, which faith, sealed in (the name of) the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, obtains. For if “in the mouth of three witnesses every word shall stand:” -while, through the benediction, we have the same (three) as witnesses of our faith whom we have as sureties of our salvation too-how much more does the number of the divine names suffice for the assurance of our hope likewise! Moreover, after the pledging both of the attestation of faith and the promise of salvation under “three witnesses,” there is added, of necessity, mention of the Church; inasmuch as, wherever there are three, (that is, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,) there is the Church, which is a body of three. (Tertullian On Baptism);
the same applies to the rest of your post if you search what men of apostolic authority had to say, not 20th century figures.
since we are not people of the book, that is, there was no Bible dropping from heaven to launch Christinity but rather a church started by the apostle and their disciples in different lands and languages, let us see what the disciples taught in this regard:
Ignatius of Antioch (ca. AD. 107-112)
For those things which the prophets announced, saying, “Until He come for whom it is reserved, and He shall be the expectation of the Gentiles,” have been fulfilled in the Gospel, [our Lord saying,] “Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” All then are good together, the law, the prophets, the apostles, the whole company [of others] that have believed through them: only if we love one another. (Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians);
and one wonders, who knows more about the apostles’ teachings, Ignatius who was John’s disciple of the 1st century, or the 20th century figures you spend your time reading, instead of studying the church history?
Irenaeus Against Heresies Book III (ca. 130-200)
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He hath anointed Me.” That is the Spirit of whom the Lord declares, “For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God, He said to them, “**Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” **
Tertullian (ca. 160-220)
Accordingly, after one of these had been struck off, He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to “go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost.” Immediately, therefore, so did the apostles, whom this designation indicates as “the sent.” … (Tertullian The Prescription Against Heretics)
by the washing away of sins, which faith, sealed in (the name of) the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, obtains. For if “in the mouth of three witnesses every word shall stand:” -while, through the benediction, we have the same (three) as witnesses of our faith whom we have as sureties of our salvation too-how much more does the number of the divine names suffice for the assurance of our hope likewise! Moreover, after the pledging both of the attestation of faith and the promise of salvation under “three witnesses,” there is added, of necessity, mention of the Church; inasmuch as, wherever there are three, (that is, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,) there is the Church, which is a body of three. (Tertullian On Baptism);
the same applies to the rest of your post if you search what men of apostolic authority had to say, not 20th century figures.
I
inJESUS
Guest
S
Sam_777
Guest
Maybe he got that idea from his Hindus neighbours like Muhammed.
R
ralphinal
Guest
And here we go.
I want proof from your souce that Peake’s book is the “universally welcomed and considered to be the standard” in Christianity or I will consider this to be another LIE told by a Muslim. Baptizing in the “Name of Jesus” as it is used in Acts means according to his teaching.
Tom Harpur is a heretic who teaches that all people will be saved and denies most of the Passion and Ressurection Stories. Using a pagan to tell us Christian teachings is another misdirection and half truth told by a Muslim.
Source please
God Himself uses these terms to teach us the connection. If He is wrong about that, take it up with him
See above
Again, that means to be Baptised in the way Jesus Taught it
I hope we don’t get more lies and half truths from you. I hope you give us sources.
For once, you tell the truth.
SO now you use a souce that is well known for its “quality and irony of its prose, its use of primary sources, and its open denigration of organized religion” according to some souces. IN other words, you found another ANTI-CHRISTIAN BIGOT to support your claims.
Again, you can tell the truth sometimes
I would try to teach you, but you honestly would rather misunderstand and hate
Next time, do not use a hate site to cut and paste. I know that you would be killed if you ever learned the Truth, but eternity is worth it.
C
Chancellare
Guest
No. The correct description should be: “Common Misbeliefs of heretics/non-believers about Christian beliefs attributed to Christians”.
A
Allnamesused
Guest
Let me give you a few quick facts about the inventor of the religion you are considering joining.
I. Mohamed preferred the company of prepubescent girls, to the point that he actually married a six year old girl and claims to have had her impregnated by the age of 9. Of course, that is likely impossible, but why would you brag about something like that?
II. He spent the final ten years of his life leading military campaign after military campaign. He personally commanded 27 such a campaigns and his proxy generals commanded many more. He was a warlord and a very evil man.
III. He admits that he was frequently a tool of Satan. At the start of his “prophesy” he made many claims that he originally attributed to God, but later he admitted that Satan had caused him to say many things and he discredited many of his early teaching by claiming that they were “Satanic Verses”. Why did Satan have such control over him…why was he essentially Satan’s prophet for so many years…and how much of what he said later in his life was influence by Satan and we just don’t know it? Why would you assume that anything he said was not the work of Satan after he admits that have been so influenced by him earlier?
If these facts are not sufficient from preventing you from converting to Islam, then quite frankly I don’t know what will. You know, you can live a good clean life without resorting to becoming part of the scourge on humanity. It’s not an either or situation. You don’t have to be either a Christian or Muslim. Non-belief is certainly an option. However, if you must choose, please choose Catholicism over Islam…if you care about the rest of at least.
M
Muslim_Woman
Guest
Salaam/peace
link:
Is Satan the Author of the Qur’an?
islamonline.net/english/Quran/2004/07/article22.shtml
http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/talkislam_2023_4301154151
onlineislamicstore.com/b2346.html
Prophet Muhammed (p) married Khadeja (40) who was twice widowed with 3 kids . Prophet (p) was 25 & he did not take any other wife as long she was alive.
he forgave his enemies when he had 10 thousands armed soldiers with him . Last Prophet (p) showed what is mercy , what is forgiveness. It’s easy to say , it’s hard to forgive the killers of your own daughter & uncle when enemies are in front of you & you are the judge.
see above
lol…including this one : “O you who believe! Follow not the footsteps of the Devil, for those who follow the footsteps of the Devil, he commands lewdness and evil.” (An-Nur: 21)
link:
Is Satan the Author of the Qur’an?
islamonline.net/english/Quran/2004/07/article22.shtml
now sun is rising in the west
http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/talkislam_2023_4301154151
onlineislamicstore.com/b2346.html
A
Allnamesused
Guest
Salaam/peace
Prophet Muhammed (p) married Khadeja (40) who was twice widowed with 3 kids . Prophet (p) was 25 & he did not take any other wife as long she was alive.
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that ‘Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)’
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
he forgave his enemies when he had 10 thousands armed soldiers with him . Last Prophet (p) showed what is mercy , what is forgiveness. It’s easy to say , it’s hard to forgive the killers of your own daughter & uncle when enemies are in front of you & you are the judge.
Yes…it’s easiest to forgive when you have ten thousand armed zealots with you.
see above
lol…including this one : “O you who believe! Follow not the footsteps of the Devil, for those who follow the footsteps of the Devil, he commands lewdness and evil.” (An-Nur: 21)
link:
Is Satan the Author of the Qur’an?
islamonline.net/english/Quran/2004/07/article22.shtml
I see that you do not deny that Mohammed refutiate many of his own teaching by claiming that his words were inspired by Satan. Why did Satan have such a hold on him? How can we believe that Satan did not inspire his later teachings?
now sun is rising in the west
http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/talkislam_2023_4301154151
onlineislamicstore.com/b2346.html
R
ralphinal
Guest
I guess my reply to Muslim Woman’s post was too difficult for her to refute. 
C
Chancellare
Guest
Seems Schnitz is not capable of answering the above question. Perhaps Muslim Woman is?
D
dzheremi
Guest
It probably takes a while to find the best Dr. Naik essay to reply with…I guess my reply to Muslim Woman’s post was too difficult for her to refute.
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Schnitz
Guest
I never once said that I was leaving Catholicism. I also never said that I was considering converting to Islam. Please don’t put words in my mouth. I simply stated questions/problems that I was presented with, and I was asking my fellow Catholic brothers and sisters what their responses were. Since when was seeking Truth wrong? I would have thought that that was encouraged in Catholicism, because searching for Truth would eventually lead all people to the Catholic Church (She does contain all Truth). When I had posted these questions, I had already had answers in mind, but I was seeking further knowledge and different ways of looking at things. If people here don’t like somebody asking questions or looking for Truth, then I apologize. I will simply go somewhere else.
S
Schnitz
Guest
I do not “subscribe” to any Islamic teachings. I am a Catholic, and proud of it. Perhaps you could better phrase your question?
S
swariffin
Guest
Dear Schnitz,
What you are doing in Catholicism is OK, and i believe that you are supposed to. In Islam, you cannot ask.
A
Allnamesused
Guest
I apologize. I can understand your offense to my having thought you might convert to Islam. I hope that you find the answers you are looking for. Peace.
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