Answering Islam

[inJESUS]

Anyway , Jesus (p) told you OT is not a holy book to Christians anymore ? Jesus (p) told something like that I came not to change anything but to fulfill . So , how come all the laws in OT are forbidden ?

the OT laws are not forbidden. It depends on which laws you are talking about anyway…some laws were fulfilled, and some laws were only to Jews in the first place. Prohibition of some food were to Jews,dealing with ritual purity, started by Moses but not before…you see that before Moses no such prohibitions existed so non-Jews can abstain from pork meat for example, but it is not an obligation; we can observe the laws the Jews observe, but this means that in order to follow Jesus, we must become Jews which is not what Jesus says…the Old covenant is callled Old for a reason, and the New Covenant is new for a reason…the Bible starting Genesis shows God’s progressive revelations to humanity…the Bible is not simply a law book but the history of God with His people and the revelations are progressive until they reached the fulfillment so to us the OT is the introduction and development of God’s revelations whereas the NT is the summary and fulfillment.

Jesus’ death, when seen as “unnecessary” or “weak” by human reasoning which is brainwashed by a twisted understanding of love and power is actually the most challenging love display and the most challenging power display a human can ever witness, the human who has a true understanding of love and power. This is one reason, beside the historical and scriptual ones, why Christians will forever reject the Islamic teaching that someone else was crucified or that it was all an illusion .

 

[planten]

**(name removed by moderator), There is no contradiction if you believe that:

1. God is the God of all Creation.
2. He did not reveal Himself to only one race.
3. He spoke to all nations through their prophets.
4. The message of Moses and Jesus and Muhammad was the same from the same God.
5. It happens that Muslims are as bad today as the christians used to be 300 years ago.
6. The time of the Queen (Bloody Mary) is on record. She was a Catholic too.
7. The Englishmen were suffering under the divine right of Kings for a long time until the kings gave up some rights.
8. There is nothing inhuman in what M W has said. I would say that your support of illegitimate births should be considered inhuman, illegal, unethical.**

 

[Chancellare]

I think it is fairly evident that all your points will be missed by Muslim Woman no matter how hard you try

I think Muslim Woman did not miss any points here. She only twisted them by non-sequiturs either:

• to make Christians look bad by all means
  or
• for laughs.

Some examples:

1. I bet you realize that the Landover Baptise Church website is a fake church made to make fun of Christians.
   Muslim Woman’s reply:
   So , the answeres given there are all wrong ? There is no punihsment / death penatly regarding Bible ?
2. Yes you will find it in the bible but it is a historical punishment only for that period not to be used today.
   Muslim Woman replies:
   Jesus (p) told you OT is not a holy book to Christians anymore ?
3. I think it is fairly evident that all your points will be missed by Muslim Woman no matter how hard you try
   Muslim Woman:
   Jesus (p) told you OT is not a holy book to Christians anymore ?

At any rate, Muslim Woman’s efforts is still noteworthy.

 

[dzheremi]

1. God is the God of all Creation.
2. He did not reveal Himself to only one race.
3. He spoke to all nations through their prophets.
4. The message of Moses and Jesus and Muhammad was the same from the same God.
5. It happens that Muslims are as bad today as the christians used to be 300 years ago.
6. The time of the Queen (Bloody Mary) is on record. She was a Catholic too.
7. The Englishmen were suffering under the divine right of Kings for a long time until the kings gave up some rights.
8. There is nothing inhuman in what M W has said. I would say that your support of illegitimate births should be considered inhuman, illegal, unethical.

I’m glad that you’ve set out these 8 points by which we can determine if there are contradictions inherent to Islam. Since point 4 is definitely not true, Jharek’s point stands. The language in point 6 is offensive (and it is unclear what you are trying to say), and points 5 and 7 have nothing to do with the specific doctrines of Islam as we have been discussing them. Point 8, of course, is not a point of doctrine at all, but your personal opinion.

Here is something for you to ponder: By supporting the CHILDREN who through no fault of their own are born illegitimately, we do not support procreation outside of wedlock any more than we would be supporting poverty and starvation by working in soup kitchens, or wife beating by working in battered women’s shelters. All of these are completely HUMAN (and hence, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc.) responses to social problems, and I think it is disgusting that you do not separate support of the individual who is in bad circumstances from support of those circumstances in and of themselves. This makes you seem like a horribly cold-hearted person. God help the women and children in the Muslim world who may be under the jurisdiction of people like you.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

…The Holy Spirit is not separate from God,

God is the Creator , holy Spirit is His creation , His obedient servant . Servant is NOT equal to His Lord.

 

[dzheremi]

This is your understanding, not mine. According to Islam, Jesus Christ was similarly created, but no Christian will agree with you on that, either.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

… no Christian will agree with you on that, either.

but Christians believe Jesus (p) is begotten son of God. If he was always there , how he is begotten ? Is this the right word to say about Jesus (p) ? It surely creats a lot of confusion .

 

[dzheremi]

Salaam/peace

but Christians believe Jesus (p) is begotten son of God. If he was always there , how he is begotten ? Is this the right word to say about Jesus (p) ? It surely creats a lot of confusion .

Indeed, we do. It is in our Creed. “Begotten, not made”. From an analysis and comparison of the original 325 creed with that of the first council of Constantinople (381):

…And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance (ὁμοούσιον) with the Father; by whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth]; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man; he suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. (source: Creeds of Christiandom

Those portions in the brackets are apparently present in the original 325 creed, later to be dropped or expressed using different terms in the 381 council. And, indeed, within this context, we can see that its meaning is clear whether or not we retain the bolded portion: Jesus is true God of true God, of one substance/essence with the Father. “Begotten” is not problematic. Why would it be? Because you cannot understand it outside of its carnal meaning. We’ve seen that other Muslims here have the same problem.

I don’t know how to better explain it…if you were to see the truth of the Creed, it would create even bigger problems for you as a Muslim than it does now. But this not up to me, but to God Himself.

 

[planten]

Salaam/peace

but Christians believe Jesus (p) is begotten son of God. If he was always there , how he is begotten ? Is this the right word to say about Jesus (p) ? It surely creats a lot of confusion .

**M W, very good point. As they say Jesus is begotten, then he must have been begotten at some time and was not always there. The more the christian try to move away from truth, the more they get into trouble.

Now most of them are trying to prove that Jesus was always there and in fact there is no father. It was Jesus who created everything, even his mother, at some point in time… Surprising things !!**

 

[planten]

dzhereme, your words… It has created much confusion.
[the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God],

** It appears that Jesus is God of God, another copy of God or Jesus is approaching The God asymptotically, gradually until he is merged with the Real God.

Then Jesus must have been getting into The God and coming out too because he came on earth, somehow. Then went back. According to the church, Jesus is now sitting on the ight hand side of the Real God.

Why is he sitting away from God, separately? Why not he should be an integral part of God, the Real One God? It is all very confusing and cannot be understood.**

 

[Sam_777]

Jesus came to FULFILL the Law, not end it. When something is fulfilled, it has reached it highest point and it may be complete. Complete does not mean ended. For example, when road construction is ended, the road BEGINS, it does not cease to exist.

The OT Laws are fulfilled in Christ. There is no more need to offer animal sacrifice to God for our sins. Further, he shifted the law from a blookthursty, eye for an eye, to a better way. A way of love and forgiveness, where we are not called to judge others and put ourselves in the place of God to punish them. The Ten Commandments still stand, as Christ made it clear they should. IN fact, he made them more all-encompassing, by adding our thoughts into what could be sinful.

A very logical interpretation. :newidea:

 

[Chancellare]

dzhereme, your words… It has created much confusion.
[the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God],

** It appears that Jesus is God of God, another copy of God or Jesus is approaching The God asymptotically, gradually until he is merged with the Real God.

Then Jesus must have been getting into The God and coming out too because he came on earth, somehow. Then went back. According to the church, Jesus is now sitting on the ight hand side of the Real God.

Why is he sitting away from God, separately? Why not he should be an integral part of God, the Real One God? It is all very confusing and cannot be understood.**

We follow the teachings of the Early fathers as mentioned in CA Tracts.
One of them is Tertullian:

“We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . This rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the gospel, before even the earlier heretics” (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).

“And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (ibid.).

“Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” (ibid., 9).

“Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are, one essence, not one person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are one’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of being not singularity of number” (ibid., 25).

 

[inJESUS]

Salaam/peace

but Christians believe Jesus (p) is begotten son of God. If he was always there , how he is begotten ? Is this the right word to say about Jesus (p) ? It surely creats a lot of confusion .

there is no confusion if the term is not understood physically. When you try to understand Christian teachings, you must put aside words like “consort”, “partner” , “wife” as these Quranic words are totally alien to Christianity. Light begets light. One fire enkindles another, that is, begets. In other words, it means to proceed from.

As to the Holy Spirit being a creature, it is neither supported by the OT, nor the NT, not even in the Quran.

“Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: ‘I am about to create man from clay: When I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My Spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.’” S. 38:71-72

how can Allah breath an angel into humans to give them life? at least in this context, the Spirit of Allah cannot be an angel.

Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself.

the only way an angel can strengthen all believers and everywhere is if he is omnipresent and omnipotent.

Here is what Yussuf Ali has to say:

Yusuf Ali states:

“Cf. ii 87 and 253, where it is said that God strengthened the Prophet Jesus with the holy spirit. Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by God with the holy spirit. If anything, the phrase used here is stronger, ‘a spirit from Himself’. Whenever any one offers his heart in faith and purity to God, God accepts it, engraves that faith on the seeker’s heart, and further fortifies him with the Divine Spirit, **which we can no more define adequately than we can define in human language the nature of God.” **.

"When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the Holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle

How can Gabriel assist Jesus when he spoke in the cradle?

“The Day that **the Spirit and the angels **will stand forth in ranks, none shall speak except any who is permitted by (God) Most Gracious, and He will say what is right.” S. 78:38

“**The angels and the Spirit **descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.” S. 97:4

why is this distinction between the angels and the Spirit?

So neither the OT nor NT teach that God’s Holy Spirit is an angel, and the Quran is rather ambiguous.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

… One fire enkindles another, that is, begets. In other words, it means to proceed from…

the second light which preceeded from the first light created later . It means Father was there at first , later from Him son came ; that’s why he is son , not the same/another father.

 

[dzheremi]

Salaam/peace

the second light which preceeded from the first light created later . It means Father was there at first , later from Him son came ; that’s why he is son , not the same/another father.

Uhh…we don’t say that Jesus is the same as the Father or is another Father. Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. There was never a time when Jesus was not because Jesus is the Word of God, of the same substance/essence of God, and God is eternal. I think you are confusing Jesus’ human nature with His divine nature. Jesus was not always among us on Earth, that was only for a time, but He always was, even when He did not dwell among us, and even as He does not physically dwell among us now. He was, and still is, and always will be! You don’t conquer death and then go back to being dead because people like Muhammad deny you…

 

[swariffin]

Salaam/peace

but Christians believe Jesus (p) is begotten son of God. If he was always there , how he is begotten ? Is this the right word to say about Jesus (p) ? It surely creats a lot of confusion .

Dear MW,

Jesus is “Kalimathullah” which is Word of God. Islam admit that Jesus is Word of God. Word of God is not created, but Islam claim Jesus is created. That is the confusion on your part, not us. The same thing as Islam claim Quran is uncreated but unable to explain the duality of Deity which are God and Quran.

 

[inJESUS]

Salaam/peace

the second light which preceeded from the first light created later . It means Father was there at first , later from Him son came ; that’s why he is son , not the same/another father.

here we are talking about the meaning of begotten, which means to proceed from, as light begets light, it is always light in essence . Eternally begotten means there was no time when the Father did not have Word/Wisdom.

 

[morning_star777]

Salaam/peace

God is the Creator , holy Spirit is His creation , His obedient servant . Servant is NOT equal to His Lord.

Holy spirit is also God and he does not forgive blasphemy .holy spirit and Jesus is not servant to any one,but I am hopeful that holy spirit will forgive them who do not understand trinity.Oh Lord,God the holy Spirit,giver of life,forgive them who do not know you,because they are ignorant about religion

 

[Analyzer]

Holy spirit is also God and he does not forgive blasphemy .holy spirit and Jesus is not servant to any one,but I am hopeful that holy spirit will forgive them who do not understand trinity.Oh Lord,God the holy Spirit,giver of life,forgive them who do not know you,because they are ignorant about religion

As per,

Matthew 1:18
Now the generation of Christ was in this wise. When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 1:20
But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost.

**If Jesus was/is God, and Holy Ghost too was/is God, then, howcome the Mother of God -Mary- conceived God (Jesus) who was of God **(Holy Ghost)?

 

[dzheremi]

Huh? Is the preposition “of” what you are asking about? Because it means “comprising”, and that is entirely consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity. “True God of True God” and all that.