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esieffe
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yes, that would be helpful.
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OraLabora
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Call me naive but I would never call anyone a “rotten tree”. To be sure many people have strange/bad ideas, but the notion that this makes someone entirely bad is foreign to me. We all have the image of Christ on our hearts even if we don’t always recognize it. Ms. Klein would be welcomed into any Benedictine monastery as if Christ himself was walking through the doors, because the Rule of St. Benedict says so.
The monks may disagree with her ideas but they’d welcome her in their midst with open arms, and they would apply the first word of the Rule of St. Benedict to whatever she had to say: “Listen”. The would never judge her by calling her a “rotten tree” but would instead bend over backwards to try to find the good in her.
I suspect Pope Francis is a lot wiser about human nature than many of us here, and is quite willing to hear what she has to say; moreover I suspect he’s wise enough to discern between her good ideas and those that aren’t so good (and I do believe she has plenty of those… but on other issues she does provoke thought).
So while some of her fruits may be rotten, we must remember that the tree that she is was made by God Himself, and that image of Him in all of us is precious.
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OraLabora
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jabaez02
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i dont know if youve ever lived in a marxist country. I have. every excuse you made, those excuses of relativism, where nothing is good or bad, is exactly the philosophy of apostacy.
Furthermore, in a marxist society, there cant be organized religion because you must somehow or other worship the state, the state will provide, the state will resolve, the state will tell you what to wear, drink, where youre going to work, what will be produced, because individual freedom is their enemy. The state will care for the poor, NOT the Church. This is why its importamt for them to remain athiest and to destroy any for of cultural morality.
Sain John Paul II saw this, knew this, lived this and faught his for a reason. Our Lady of Fatima also warned us on this, yet today, we are at the same table with them. Where the other side is excluded and people like Klein are welcomed with open arms.
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jabaez02
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Negawatts? You know where history has taught us innovation comes from? The free market! Through innovation, the US has reduced its green house gas emition more than Europe! youtube.com/watch?v=EGwN8Ba5WFw
and check this out too slate.com/articles/health_and_science/project_syndicate/2012/09/thanks_to_fracking_u_s_carbon_emissions_are_at_the_lowest_levels_in_20_years_.html
Just remember that the great achievements that have allowed the human race to cut world poverty by half, innovative medicines, logistics, etc, have not come from government bureocrats, its come from the freedom of individuals to persue their seperate interest. History has been crystal clear, that marxism has only produce more poverty, force, and totalitarianism. Good intentions do not translate to good results.
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lynnvinc
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I seriously doubt Naomi Klein or the Pope support the Russian or E. European style communism – which BTW has a worse environmental track-record than the West.
Being against the form of cut-throat, environment and people destroying global capitalism we have today does not translate into desiring Gulag Archipelago.
People just don’t have much of an imagination to think about a better society and better, more humane, more Christian way. They assume we have to horde for ourselves whatever we can, and too bad for the poor dying in the streets. They assume that’s the only way to get things for themselves – at the expense of others’ suffering.
RE abortion, it is possible for a person to be pro-environment to save the world for their own children AND pro-abortion (of other people’s children, so there will be more for one’s own children). However it is totally impossible to be anti-abortion AND anti-environmental. Either the person really isn’t anti-abortion at all (it’s just an ideological fad or sound bite) OR they totally fail to comprehend that the children to be born will need healthy water, air, food, a climate in which to produce that food, and resources with which to build buildings and produce products. Maybe they think it all comes from the stores, and don’t think about where the stores get them.
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lynnvinc
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As Lovins says, We didn’t leave the stone age bec we ran out of stones. Same way should leave the fossil fuels in the ground, because they are way too expensive (when one adds in all the subsidies and externalities), and energy/resource efficiency/conservation and alt energy are just cheaper without those terrible harms and risks. It just makes economic and environmental sense. My husband and I have been mitigating CC and other environmental harms for the 45 years of our marriage and have saved many many $1000s without lowering our living standards. Too bad our nation is so profligate that it would rather burn money out on the front lawn than do the right thing.
RE our not-so-free markets, the problem is our politicians are bought and paid for by the fossil fuel industries and they are NOT working for what is environmentally or economically in our best interests. And they may say they are against abortion, but they are actually in favor (at least de facto) of harming life on earth…including humans and including the killing of fetuses thru env means.
So much for free (that is, “captured”) markets.
Might be good to read the Encyclical and see what the Pope has to say. Among other things he also denounces communism.
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jabaez02
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I agree with everything you said, except youre leaving out a HUGE part. Global warming has become a HUGE business. I work for a company that manufactures LED lights. Government bids all over the world are switching to these lights (amongst other things), its hard to compete against the big companies that tell them “let me win this bid and ill finance your campaign”. This type of corruption is the biggest incentives. When a govt buys something, they buy BILLIONS of dollars worth of prooduct. Enough to set a company for life.
Who do you think has manufactured Obamas green plan in the US? GE, turns out the CEO is also part of Obamas economic council… what a coincidence. They build their business arround where government is going. The difference is if, if you sell to individual consumers, you have to sell something people want and keep making it better, more afordable, etc. When you sell to government, youre an instant billionaire, and if it didnt work out, thats fine, they just pass a new law. youtube.com/watch?v=eE-Rqvk6rmM
not just the US
forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/07/01/with-power-africa-plan-obama-to-grease-billions-in-deals-for-g-e/
There is so much corruption in global warming that even scientist must forge data in order to get new funding. Just google “global warming corruption” or “global warming fiddling”
Peace be with you.
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GUYMAN
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Yes those evil fossil fuels. I take it you don’t drive a car, don’t expect to have electricity at your disposal 24/7, etc. I’m all for cleaner alternatives that are practical and affordable. In the meantime demonizing the people who supply what virtually every person wants/ expects is ridiculous and actually a bit un-Christian in my opinion. Oil companies lobby for their interests, and those trying to make money off of solar, wind, etc do the same. You won’t find any saints no matter where you look.
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lynnvinc
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Civil society and NGOs are so very important to ferret out corruption and expose it, and fight it. But it is a never-ending battle. My mom used to complain about how Kennedy took money away from the San Diego naval operations, harming our economy there, bec the area voted for Nixon. I guess nearly all the presidents are involved in some shenanigans or other.
RE free market, I don’t think people really want a totally free market without some gov oversight and regs to make sure our products are safe, etc. I have no problem with gov regs that prevent harms and subsidies that attract people to buy things that help the common good, such as subsidies for solar and wind, etc – even tho these are now about on par with conventional energy prices. I think bec they are fairly new people tend to balk at getting them.
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Exiled_Child
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The only Naomi Klein book I’ve read is her wonderful No Logo, which I highly recommend to one and all. As far as your unkind characterization of her is concerned, as Ella Fitzgerald used to say, “If you don’t like my peaches, don’t shake my tree!”
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openmind77
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Nobody is in favor of abortion or even same sex marriage. They just support the right of others to have an abortion or marry anyone they want.
If that is still not clear (apparently it is not), here is an example - I support the right of anyone to never take a shower (as long as they keep their distance), but it is totally ridiculous to say that I support not taking showers.
Naomi Klein maybe anti-capitalist, but there is nothing wrong with that opinion. I personally think (perhaps like the Pope) that capitalism is necessary but needs to be heavily regulated (much more than it is now in the US), otherwise capitalists will destroy the environment while making most of us poor - earning bare minimum wage with a low standard of living and no healthcare.
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weller2
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OK, who here has actually read This changes everything? Because it’s obvious from the comments in this thread that most people (including the OP) did not.
Also, to remind you, (unrestricted) capitalism is not a part of the deposit of faith.
Also, to remind you, (unrestricted) capitalism is not a part of the deposit of faith.
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weller2
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Not through innovation but through Fed printing money.
Would you invest in a business which will give you $100 after 5 years if you invest $120? Because such is the economy of fracking. Banks can afford it though, because they can get the initial $120 from the Fed for free… funded by yourself through the inflation tax.
Adam Smith would probably run away in panic if he saw what we call capitalism nowadays.
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weller2
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What is today beilled as Free market capitalism is the exact opposite.
First of all, the economy is no longer based on capital by on debt. Capital has to be earned, debt, on the other hand, can be manufactured out of thin air: if I loan you $100, then you loan me back $100, and I loan you back $100 yet again, then we now have $300 debt between us despite the fact that we have started with $100.
Second, we no longer use a market for price arbitration mechanism, because the core assumption of the market is that it sets the prices automatically and fairly; in reality though, banks are colluding to set interest rates and move stock prices, which makes casino a more fitting description. In the casino, remember, the house always wins at the end.
Third, we are no longer free, because, let’s face it, if you have a mortgage, you are not a free man, you are a slave to the bank.
Debt-casino slavery is what is should be called.
First of all, the economy is no longer based on capital by on debt. Capital has to be earned, debt, on the other hand, can be manufactured out of thin air: if I loan you $100, then you loan me back $100, and I loan you back $100 yet again, then we now have $300 debt between us despite the fact that we have started with $100.
Second, we no longer use a market for price arbitration mechanism, because the core assumption of the market is that it sets the prices automatically and fairly; in reality though, banks are colluding to set interest rates and move stock prices, which makes casino a more fitting description. In the casino, remember, the house always wins at the end.
Third, we are no longer free, because, let’s face it, if you have a mortgage, you are not a free man, you are a slave to the bank.
Debt-casino slavery is what is should be called.
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Exiled_Child
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Aside from The Creature From Jekyll Island, which I’ve read, what are some good books to help one get a handle on the true nature of economics? Are there any particularly well done titles out there you can recommend?
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Exiled_Child
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CaptFun
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An anti-capitalist author.
Is she anti-capitalist all the time – or does she take a break to sell her books?
Does the eco know she’s crusading for it?
If the meeting was at night did they turn any “man made” any lights on?
I don’t know. Sealing an invitation in an envelope is not really my definition of courage. More courageous than that might be … sharing the powerful truth that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah ( - of course not just FOR the Jews, but Naomi might actually be related to Him 
) - and that His Kingdom is not of this world, and that God would like her to live in heaven with Him for all time!
Actually that’s not that courageous either come to think of it. I wonder if Naomi will be invited by anyone to consider something higher than secular weather speculation and justified class warfare on her trip to “the Vatican”. She could be invited to consider the Church for more than utility – in a welcoming way, as if we wanted her and considered her a sister whose soul was precious to God and worthy of more spiritual nourishment and lasting benefits than secular feminism offers. Or anti-capitalist eco-crusading for that matter.
Organization is important however, and AGW and anti-capitalism WOULD naturally preceed Christianity by several slots in an alphabetically prioritized agenda. Unless of course this “conference on saving the planet” at the Vatican refers to the type of
“saving” the Church has been engaged in for the past 1982 years. :newidea:
uch::dts: anti-pollution!** … not absolutions, ablutions, abortions or … etc., etc.
Is she anti-capitalist all the time – or does she take a break to sell her books?
Does the eco know she’s crusading for it?
If the meeting was at night did they turn any “man made” any lights on?
I don’t know. Sealing an invitation in an envelope is not really my definition of courage. More courageous than that might be … sharing the powerful truth that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah ( - of course not just FOR the Jews, but Naomi might actually be related to Him ) - and that His Kingdom is not of this world, and that God would like her to live in heaven with Him for all time!Actually that’s not that courageous either come to think of it. I wonder if Naomi will be invited by anyone to consider something higher than secular weather speculation and justified class warfare on her trip to “the Vatican”. She could be invited to consider the Church for more than utility – in a welcoming way, as if we wanted her and considered her a sister whose soul was precious to God and worthy of more spiritual nourishment and lasting benefits than secular feminism offers. Or anti-capitalist eco-crusading for that matter.
Organization is important however, and AGW and anti-capitalism WOULD naturally preceed Christianity by several slots in an alphabetically prioritized agenda. Unless of course this “conference on saving the planet” at the Vatican refers to the type of“saving” the Church has been engaged in for the past 1982 years. :newidea:
uch::dts: anti-pollution!** … not absolutions, ablutions, abortions or … etc., etc.
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CaptFun
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(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Reference: his favorite joke :tiphat:
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weller2
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Chris Martenson’s Crash course.
It is available in the book form, but everything he has to say is in his lectures on Youtube – here is a condensed 1h version: youtube.com/watch?v=pYyugz5wcrI
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