Anti-Catholic WELS

[PiusXIII]

I stumbled across this Q&A site put on by the Wisconsin Synod of the Lutheran Church.
wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1519&cuQA_qaID=1&cuTopic_topicID=19

I’m troubled by it because many of the questions here are regarding Catholic practice and dogma and many of the answers are ill-informed (at best) and downright anti-Catholic (at worst).

In response to a question on All Saints day, the answer read (in part):
The original purpose of remembering the saints and martyrs was blurred during the medieval ages, as saints became the objects of prayers and petitions for merit before God. Pointing to Christ as the only source of forgiveness, Luther cleansed the church of this abuse of the saints.
As if Catholics look toward Saints for forgiveness!

Another question on the topic of praying to saints reads in part:
There is nothing in the Scriptures that suggests that people in heaven can hear the requests of people on earth. Nor do we have any command in Scripture to address such requests to them. Therefore the practice of praying to the saints cannot come from faith because we have no command from God to take our requests to them nor do we have any promise from God that they can hear us.

In response to a question about how Lutherans can say that Catholics are wrong–since Jesus gave us the church himself, they responded:

Read the Bible. It says we are saved by faith alone, not by works. The Catholic church says we are saved by faith and works. Jesus says we have only one Father and he is in heaven. The Catholic church says the Holy Father is in Rome. Read the teachings of the Bible and read the teachings of the Catholic church. They can’t be the true church if their teaching contradicts the Bible.

How can we combat this kind of misinformation and bigotry being spread to our Lutheran friends?

 

[PiusXIII]

Just noticed also–in response to a question on Matthew 16:18:

*There are several reasons why Jesus can’t be referring to Peter when he speaks of the rock on which he would build his church. In the Greek “Peter (Greek: petros)” is masculine and "this rock (Greek: petra) is feminine. If Jesus really meant to say that Peter was the one on whom he would build his church, he would have made this a lot clearer if he had repeated the masculine form of the word so that this would refer to Peter’s person. *

*Another reason that the church is not built on Peter is evident when Jesus shortly after this has to rebuke Peter and call him "Satan (Mt 16:23). Peter was a weak, human being, subject to error–hardly the kind of foundation on which Jesus would build the church. *

*And finally, and most important, just before this Peter had made the beautiful confession that embraces the two pillars of the Christian faith on which the church is built: 1) Jesus is God’s Son; and 2) Jesus is the Christ, the one God sent to do everything necessary to save us from sin. These two truths, all of Scripture teaches us, are the foundation of the church. This is why Jesus uses the feminine to point to this confession which is the foundation of the church. *

*Roman Catholicism will argue about the Greek in this passage and say that the different forms don’t matter. And Roman Catholicism will argue that Jesus’ subsequent rebuke of Peter isn’t really significant in this context. *

*Those arguments are ignoring important facts. But the main fact that Roman Catholicism ignores is that, when one takes the whole of Scripture into account, the foundation of the church according to Scripture is the confession about Jesus that Peter makes. *All of the arguments Roman Catholicism brings to set Peter up as the first Pope are done only to uphold its false teaching which says that people are saved, not by Christ’s saving alone, but also by the deeds of penance they do. It is this teaching, which Roman Catholicism says has been taught by Popes ever since Peter, which also gives us the reason for the way Roman Catholicism interprets Mt 16:18.

Ugh!

 

[drforjc]

I second your “Ugh!”

Talk about ignoring scripture. “Feed My Lambs.” “Tend My Sheep.” “Feed My Sheep.”

 

[PiusXIII]

drforjc:

I second your “Ugh!”

Thanks. Reading boards like that one it becomes pretty obvious the Lutherans have set up Martin Luther as their personal pope.

 

[Tonks40]

PiusXIII:

Thanks. Reading boards like that one it becomes pretty obvious the Lutherans have set up Martin Luther as their personal pope.

Or worse!

 

[Church_Militant]

PiusXIII:

Thanks. Reading boards like that one it becomes pretty obvious the Lutherans have set up Martin Luther as their personal pope.

HI Pius!

How can we answer this stuff? One person at a time with the truth and in the spirit of 1st Peter 3:15.

The glaringly obvious aspects of their misinformation actually set them up for simple presentations of the truth, but the fact is that you have to pray and pick your targets. Anyone who just wants to deride the church and argue is not really interested in truth. Make your statement and walk away and leave it all in the Holy Spirit’s hands.

Anyone who sincerely is interested in the truth will talk with you and listen carefully to your responses and if they really love the truth then they’ll be offended by the fact that they were told wrong by whoever they were listening to before. (I was).

1st Peter 3:15-17 just really sort of sums it all up for me. (It ain’t easy BTW)
Pax tecum,

 

[LutheranStudent]

Regarding the assertion of the WELS Q&A site as being misinformed or malinformed would cause me to be seriously skeptical of your own knowledge… Firstly, the Q&A site is no more anti-Catholic than it is anti-error. If you do some searching you will find it spends just as much time refuting the errors of every Christian denomination wherever they are not in agreement with divine Scripture. Secondly, the posts themselves are written as questions come rolling in, not unlike your own “Ask An Apologist” section on this website. Don’t flatter yourselves by thinking that we’re attacking Catholics especially.

Please, cite examples of supposed glaring errors in the site…

Anyone who sincerely is interested in the truth will talk with you and listen carefully to your responses and if they really love the truth then they’ll be offended by the fact that they were told wrong by whoever they were listening to before.
**
Amen, Militant…

 

[Lazerlike42]

What about the JDDJ? Don’t they remember that?

 

[First_of_9]

The Wisconsin Synod is not just anti-Catholic, they are anti-everything that is not WELS.

If you look at the first page, you will see that the second-largest number of questions are about The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, and they aren’t much kinder to them.

 

[Lazerlike42]

OHHH this is the Wysconsin Synod, for some reason I confused them with the LCMS.

 

[littlesheep]

What about the JDDJ? Don’t they remember that?

What about JDDJ ? WELS didn’t sign it, nor did LC-MS nor a 1/2 dozen other Lutheran bodies that I can think of.

ELCA which did sign JDDJ is not a Lutheran body anymore. They have virtually washed their hands of the Lutheran confessions and Scripture. ELCA don’t count as a Lutheran body. Why do you folks think just because somebody says their Lutheran you automatically assume that that is what Lutherans believe. ELCA is no more Lutheran then well let’s say the RCC is Lutheran.

Lutheran Student make sure you know what you are talking about on these here boards These here folks have been doing this for a lot longer then you or me. About 500 years longer, ever since the Council of Trent. Which I recommend you read Martin Chemnitz’s “ Examination of the Council of Trent.” You will find an awful lot of information in those 4 books that is reflected in these forums.

You will also see a lot of Lutherans say some pretty dumb stuff here also.

So: Good luck with your schooling
A fellow Lutheran

 

[littlesheep]

PS. LutheranStudent Ya don’t have to defend the Luherans. Defend the Faith.

1Pe 3:15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

 

[1ke]

LutheranStudent:

Don’t flatter yourselves by thinking that we’re attacking papists especially.

The term “papist” is highly offensive and is the equivalent of using the “N” word for African Americans. Please cease using such terms if you want to be taken seriously on this site.

 

[LutheranStudent]

Lutheran Student make sure you know what you are talking about on these here boards These here folks have been doing this for a lot longer then you or me. About 500 years longer, ever since the Council of Trent. Which I recommend you read Martin Chemnitz’s “ Examination of the Council of Trent.” You will find an awful lot of information in those 4 books that is reflected in these forums.

Thanks, littlesheep. I’ve never read Chemnitz’ work on the Council of Trent, but I have learned alot just by being here on this board… I agree with your sentiments about the ELCA, and I’m glad to see a fairly active Confessional stance here among us Lutheran folk. Gonna venture to suppose that you’re LC-MS?

*The Wisconsin Synod is not just anti-Catholic, they are anti-everything that is not WELS. *
If you look at the first page, you will see that the second-largest number of questions are about The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, and they aren’t much kinder to them.

Well, that’s not entirely true… We get along very well with the Evangelical Lutheran Synod and all the churches in the Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference. Seriously, there is a reasonable explaination with Scriptural support to answer each question on the site. The WELS and the LC-MS have a complex history, we were once in complete doctrinal fellowship (for nearly a century). In the early 60’s, the WELS was forced to break fellowship with the LCMS because of her continuing trends toward ecumenism and “fellowship-bending”. Her conflict culminated in the 1970’s Seminex incident, and the Missouri Synod has regained much of her previous ground but has not yet come back full-circle. (In fact, for some time now rumors have been spreading about a possible split in Missouri, because Confessionals are sick of it.) Main differences today remain in the areas of Fellowship, Church and Ministry, and a few others.

 

[Sherlock]

littlesheep:

ELCA is no more Lutheran then well let’s say the RCC is Lutheran.

A fellow Lutheran

By what authority are you “excommunicating” other Lutherans from being Lutheran? I’m sure they would claim to subscribe to the basic pillars of sola scriotura, sola fide, and private judgement. If they say their views are based on Scripture and guided by the Holy Spirit, what is your authority to say that they’re not Lutheran? And what exactly does it mean to be Lutheran? Is there a creed by which one can be judged by, and if so, who decides what that creed is, and who decides who is following it and who is not?

 

[Lapsed]

LutheranStudent:

Well, that’s not entirely true… We get along very well with the Evangelical Lutheran Synod and all the churches in the Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference. Seriously, there is a reasonable explaination with Scriptural support to answer each question on the site. The WELS and the LC-MS have a complex history, we were once in complete doctrinal fellowship (for nearly a century). In the early 60’s, the WELS was forced to break fellowship with the LCMS because of her continuing trends toward ecumenism and “fellowship-bending”. Her conflict culminated in the 1970’s Seminex incident, and the Missouri Synod has regained much of her previous ground but has not yet come back full-circle. (In fact, for some time now rumors have been spreading about a possible split in Missouri, because Confessionals are sick of it.) Main differences today remain in the areas of Fellowship, Church and Ministry, and a few others.

CELC, WELS, LC-MS…

How many synods?

And this is just the ongoing breakdown of one protestant denomination.

Yup, Luther was sure right that the Bible alone was all that was needed. You can tell because all the protestants agree about everything.

 

[Matt16_18]

Lazerlike42:

What about the JDDJ? Don’t they remember that?

Various Lutheran sects around the world reject the JDDJ, and these sects comprise less than 5% of the total worldwide Lutheran population. The Wisconsin Synod and the Missouri Synod are among the minority of Lutheran sects that reject the JDDJ.

 

[littlesheep]

And what exactly does it mean to be Lutheran? Is there a creed by which one can be judged by,

Well lets start with question two first. Ah Yaa It is called “The Book Of Concord” you know the Lutheran Confessions. The book that the RCC sees as a thorn in the side.

and if so, who decides what that creed is,

Well lets see how about all these guys

**Your Imperial Majesty’s **faithful subjects:
**1] **John, Duke of Saxony, Elector **2] **George, Margrave of Brandenburg **11] **Ernest, Duke of Lueneberg. **3] **Philip, Landgrave of Hesse.**4] **John Frederick, Duke of Saxony.**5] **Francis, Duke of Lueneburg.**6] **Wolfgang, Prince of Anhalt.**7] Senate and Magistracy of Nuremburg17] **Senate of Reutlingen.

**1] ***Dr. Martin Luther *subscribed. **2] **Dr. Justus Jonas, Rector, subscribed with his own hand.**3] **Dr. John Bugenhagen, Pomeranus, subscribed.**4] ***Dr. Caspar Creutziger *subscribed. **5] ***Niclas Ambsdorf *of Magdeburg subscribed.**6] ***George Spalatin *of Altenburg subscribed.
**7] **I, Philip Melanchthon, also regard [approve] the above articles as right and Christian. But regarding the Pope I hold that, if he would allow the Gospel, his superiority over the bishops which he has otherwise, is conceded to him by human right also by us, for the sake of peace and general unity of those Christians who are also under him, and may be under him hereafter. **8] ***John Agricola *of Eisleben subscribed. **9] ***Gabriel Didymus *subscribed.
Cont.

 

[littlesheep]

cont.
**10] **I, Dr. Urban Rhegius, Superintendent of the churches in the Duchy of Lueneburg, subscribe in my own name and in the name of my brethren, and of the Church of Hannover. **11] **I, Stephen Agricola, Minister at Hof, subscribe.**12] **Also I, John Draconites, Professor and Minister at Marburg, subscribe.**13] **I, Conrad Figenbotz, for the glory of God subscribe that I have thus believed, and am still preaching and firmly believing as above.**14] **I, *Andrew Osiander *of Nuernberg, subscribe.**15] **I, Magister Veit Dieterich, Minister at Nuernberg, subscribe.**16] **I, Erhard Schnepf, Preacher at Stuttgart, subscribe.
**17] **Conrad Oetinger, Preacher of Duke Ulrich at Pforzheim.
**18] **Simon Schnevveis, Pastor of the Church at Crailsheim.**19] **I, John Schlainhauffen, Pastor of the Church at Koethen, subscribe.**20] **The Reverend Magister *George Helt *of Forchheim.**21] **The Reverend Magister Adam of Fulda, Preacher in Hesse.**22] **The Reverend Magister Anthony Corvinus, Preacher in Hesse.**23] **I, Doctor John Bugenhagen, Pomeranus, again subscribe in the name of Magister John Brentz, as on departing from Smalcald he directed me orally and by a letter, which I have shown to those brethren who have subscribed.**24] **I, Dionysius Melander, subscribe to the Confession, the Apology, and the Concordia on the subject of the Eucharist.**25] **Paul Rhodius, Superintendent of Stettin.**26] **Gerard Oeniken, Superintendent of the Church at Minden.**27] **I, Brixius Northanus, Minister of the Church of Christ which is at Soest, subscribe to the Articles of the Reverend Father Martin Luther, and confess that hitherto I have thus believed and taught, and by the Spirit of Christ I shall continue thus to believe and teach.**28] **Michael Coelius, Preacher at Mansfeld, subscribed.
**29] **The Reverend Magister Peter Geltner, Preacher at Frankfort, subscribed.**30] **Wendal Faber, Pastor of Seeburg in Mansfeld.

And quit a few more, Their names can be found in the BOC

 

[LutheranStudent]

How many synods?
And this is just the ongoing breakdown of one protestant denomination.
Yup, Luther was sure right that the Bible alone was all that was needed. You can tell because all the protestants agree about everything.

There are roughly 30 Lutheran denominations in the USA and Canada. It is not fair to say that they are all seperate churches, however, because many of these Lutheran denominations agree in doctrine. The WELS and the ELS, for example, do not clash over any point of doctrine. Another example would be the ELCA and the ELCIC; the LC-MS and LC-C. One major difference between Catholics and Lutherans is that Lutherans strive for a unity of belief and teaching among their own churches, and if that is present, that’s all that matters. Catholics, however, would eventually have everyone submit to the Pope (perhaps even before establishing doctrinal agreement). So while Lutherans stive for one theological teaching, Catholics strive for one political church.

BTW, I wouldn’t so much bash the Lutherans for not holding together completely in this world. Remember - Where did the Lutherans come from?