Anti-Catholic WELS

[Lazerlike42]

If righteousness is imputed instead of infused, the nobody is going to Heaven.

Rev 21:27 - “But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Those written in the book of life are those who are not unclean.

Hebrews 1214:-24 - “Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears. For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.”

First we are told that we cannot see the Lord without holiness, then we are told that those who are in Heaven are righteous men who have been made perfect.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Littlesheep, what must I do to have eternal life?

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

littlesheep:

Lets define the highlight in the above shall we?
John 6: 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing he works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” humm! believe? don’t sound like works to me.

So agian just what is the will of God?

Lets see. John 6: 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

Peace be with you!

For all the stress that Protestants place on sola scriptura, you sure don’t read the Bible enough. Yes, Jesus said those things. But he also told the rich young man (the passage escapes me at the moment) how to get into heaven. When the rich young man asks Jesus what he must do to get into heaven, Jesus tells him “Keep the commandments.” The rich young man then asks him which commandments and Jesus proceeds to list of some of the 10 commandments. He then says to give up everything and follow him. Then the rich young man goes away dismayed because he has so many posessions.

So from this passage it is clear that we must have both faith AND works. Jesus tells the rich young man to follow him (faith) and to keep the commandments (works). It’s quite simple, really. James reiterates it very clearly as well and you know it.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[littlesheep]

I never thought that I would have to use this parable on a Catholic site. I use it mostly against decision theology but here goes please read carefully.

Mat 25:32-46 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’

"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’

"The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

"Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ "Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’

"Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

What was the sheep’s response?
Huh! Hay when did we do that?

And what was the Goat’s response?
Huh? Hay we did that.

What was the difference between the two?

Sheep relying on Faith to get to heaven not knowing that they were doing good works.

Goats relying on works because they did not have Faith so they were trying to buy their way to heaven.

James tells us Faith without works is dead. But whose works are you performing yours or Christ’s?

“What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Littlesheep, what must I do to have eternal life?

Do you believe that Christ died for all your sins both original sin and the sins that you still commit and will commit? If so then you all ready have eternal life. Nothing else needed

 

[Lazerlike42]

littlesheep:

Lazerlike42:

Littlesheep, what must I do to have eternal life?

Do you believe that Christ died for all your sins both original sin and the sins that you still commit and will commit? If so then you all ready have eternal life. Nothing else needed

it’s interesting. Jesus answered the same question in a completely different way.
Jesus Christ:

“If you would enter life, keep the commandments… You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

 

[littlesheep]

The Tiber. She’s beckoning you to swim her. Now, don’t be shy

No thank you. Water quality is not that great.

italocorotondo.it/tequila/parter_section/italy_english/it_water_pollution.htm

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

littlesheep:

I never thought that I would have to use this parable on a Catholic site. I use it mostly against decision theology but here goes please read carefully.

Mat 25:32-46 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’

"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’

"The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

"Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ "Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’

"Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

What was the sheep’s response?
Huh! Hay when did we do that?

And what was the Goat’s response?
Huh? Hay we did that.

What was the difference between the two?

Sheep relying on Faith to get to heaven not knowing that they were doing good works.

Goats relying on works because they did not have Faith so they were trying to buy their way to heaven.

James tells us Faith without works is dead. But whose works are you performing yours or Christ’s?

“What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Peace be with you!

I really don’t mean to be rude, littlesheep, I REALLY don’t…but that was one of the worst exegesis of Scripture I’ve ever read. That passage does not even refer to people trying to work their way into heaven, nor does it help the doctrine of sola fide in the least. Jesus is adament–VERY adament–that one MUST have done good works to get into heaven. The goats knew Jesus too…that’s why they were standing before him. So, they had faith, believed in God, but they had done no good works. So, Jesus did not grant them acceptance into heaven. That is the Catholic position most clearly. I don’t see how this passage helps the Protestant position at all. This is one of the most Catholic passages in the Bible.

And thanks, Lazerlike, that’s the passage I was referring to in my previous post.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Lazerlike42]

Rand Al'Thor:

Peace be with you!

I really don’t mean to be rude, littlesheep, I REALLY don’t…but that was one of the worst exegesis of Scripture I’ve ever read. That passage does not even refer to people trying to work their way into heaven, nor does it help the doctrine of sola fide in the least. Jesus is adament–VERY adament–that one MUST have done good works to get into heaven. The goats knew Jesus too…that’s why they were standing before him. So, they had faith, believed in God, but they had done no good works. So, Jesus did not grant them acceptance into heaven. That is the Catholic position most clearly. I don’t see how this passage helps the Protestant position at all. This is one of the most Catholic passages in the Bible.

And thanks, Lazerlike, that’s the passage I was referring to in my previous post.

In Christ,
Rand

Rand is absolutely right here. Red it again. I don’t think you deliberately misused this, but that you simply misread it. The goats are the ones that didn’t do any good works. The sheep are the ones who did do the good works. Notice that both the sheeps and the goats call Jesus Lord. Both believe that He is Lord. Both have faith. The sole and only difference between the two is that the goats did no works along with their faith, whereas the sheeps did works along with their faith.

 

[Dominica33]

littlesheep and LutheranStudent:

Why don’t you do us a favor and point out a (WS) lutheran in the early Church.

Since you say Scripture is the wholly complete and the sole rule of Faith, then there must have been one Father who taught yours with no accretions. But before you hastily post Augustine or Chrysostom or any other of your favorites, remember that they cannot have taught anything you find “inimical” to Scripture. This would be the usual: Purgatory, prayers to the Saints, etc.

Or do we dare say as Luther did:

“Augustine has sometimes erred and is not to be trusted. Although good and holy, **he was yet lacking in the true faith, as well as the other fathers…” ** (Luther’s Works, 54)

Thank you, Martin, for saving Christianity from 1500 years of apostasy. The Evangelists must have left out that qualification about the gates of hell. It should have been, “…and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it after Martin Luther rises…” (sarcasm intended)

 

[josephdavid]

“Originally Posted by LutheranStudent
That is why Lutherans reject the veneration of saints - including Mary, who just as much a sinner as you and I.”

This is statement is a comment made in complete ignorance. I apologize for making such a harsh statement but it is true. How is it regardless of any versiion of the Holy Bible it is said “Hail Mary full of Grace”?

Do say she is not sinless is a total disregard or lack of knowledge of scripture. Sad but true.

 

[josephdavid]

Taken from Luthers’s Sermon:

“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.”

(Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” December ?] 1527; from Hartmann Grisar, S.J., Luther, authorised translation from the German by E.M. Lamond; edited by Luigi Cappadelta, London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, first edition, 1915, Vol. IV [of 6], p. 238; taken from the German Werke, Erlangen, 1826-1868, edited by J.G. Plochmann and J.A. Irmischer, 2nd ed. edited by L. Enders, Frankfurt, 1862 ff., 67 volumes; citation from 152, p. 58)

“She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.”

(Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522)

THis is in rebuttle towards what LutherStudent posted professing that Mary was as much as a sinner as we all are.

.

 

[littlesheep]

I really don’t mean to be rude, littlesheep

,( no your not rude, your trying to get your point across) I REALLY don’t…but that was one of the*** worst exegesis of Scripture I’ve ever read***.Is it? Then I will stand corrected.

That passage does not even refer to people trying to work their way into heaven, nor does it help the doctrine of sola fide in the least There are only 2 groups of people on earth is there not? Those saved and those condemned. I don’t know of any other group. Do you? Only 2, Believers and Unbelievers. Who was He talking about in the group called the sheep?

Jesus is adamant–VERY adamant–that one MUST have done good works to get into heaven.

Your absolutely right read your answer -he MUST have done Good works. Did they know about them?
Is there any body thatt can do good works?
Isaiah 64: 6 — We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
Psalm 51: 5 — Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

The goats knew Jesus too…that’s why they were standing before him.

So here we have the third group? The unbelievers that knew Jesus? Humm! Does “Every knee will bow” ring a bell? Every one will know who Christ is on Judgment day. That is what Jesus is talking about here is it not ? Judgment day.

So, they had faith, believed in God, but they had done no good works. So, Jesus did not grant them acceptance into heaven

. All other religions in the whole wide world, except Christianity is trying to earn their way to heaven. Go ahead pick another religion.

littlesheep and LutheranStudent:
Why don’t you do us a favor and point out a (WS) ANY

lutheran in the early Church Will St Ambrose do?
“I will glory not because I am righteous but because I am redeemed; I will glory not because I am free from sins but because my sins are forgiven me. I will not glory because I have done good nor because someone has done good to me but because Christ is my advocate with the Father and because the blood of Christ has be shed for me.” ( De Jacob et vita beata Cp 6)

(Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522)

Ah Luther did change his mind on a few things. He did live another 24 years ya know. Read some his latter stuff.

 

[littlesheep]

Will St Ambrose do?

And just in case he don’t “do”, here are a few more that might.
angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.solascriptura.html

In fact this is a pertty good place to find out WHAT Lutherans Teach, Preach, and Confess. Go on Look around. Do some reading.
angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.html

 

[josephdavid]

littlesheep:

Ah Luther did change his mind on a few things. He did live another 24 years ya know. Read some his latter stuff.

She is the true mother of God and bearer of God . . . Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc. For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus, not two Christs . . . just as your son is not two sons . . . even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone.

(On the Councils and the Church, 1539)

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity.

(Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537)

Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.

(Sermon, Christmas, 1529)

1. That the Son became man in this manner: he was conceived by the Holy Spirit, without the cooperation of man, and was born of the pure, holy, and virgin Mary.
   The Formula of Concord (1577), binding on Lutherans, translated in this edition by Arthur C. Piepkorn, states in the Solid Declaration, Article VIII: The Person of Christ, section 9 (p. 595):
   On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed virgin, did not conceive a mere, ordinary human being, but a human being who is truly the Son of the most high God, as the angel testifies. He demonstrated his divine majesty even in his mother’s womb in that he was born of a virgin without violating her virginity. Therefore she is truly the mother of God and yet remained a virgin.
   Likewise, in its Epitome, Article VIII: The Person of Christ, section 7 (page 488):
   Therefore we believe, teach, and confess that Mary conceived and bore not only a plain, ordinary, mere man but the veritable Son of God; for this reason she is rightly called, and truly is, the mother of God.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Littlesheep, there is no third group here.

There are two groups Jesus speaks of in Matthew 25

1. 
   *]Those who call Him Lord and did good works - Taken into Heaven
   *]Those who call Him Lord and didn’t do good works - THey are condemned to hell
   
   Please show in Matthew 25 any case whatsoever of people who did no works and made it into heaven. Or, please show in Matthew 25 any case of people who did good works and went to hell. Either will disprove my statements entirely.

 

[Sherlock]

Lazerlike42:

Littlesheep, there is no third group here.

There are two groups Jesus speaks of in Matthew 25

1. 
   *]Those who call Him Lord and did good works - Taken into Heaven
   *]Those who call Him Lord and didn’t do good works - THey are condemned to hell
   
   Please show in Matthew 25 any case whatsoever of people who did no works and made it into heaven. Or, please show in Matthew 25 any case of people who did good works and went to hell. Either will disprove my statements entirely.

1. 
   Thank you, Lazer, for responding (and saving me the trouble of typing).
   
   Littlesheep, you state that there are only two groups: “Only 2, Believers and Unbelievers”. Littlesheep, Satan believes in God.

 

[vern_humphrey]

LutheranStudent:

Regarding the assertion of the WELS Q&A site as being misinformed or malinformed would cause me to be seriously skeptical of your own knowledge… Firstly, the Q&A site is no more anti-Catholic than it is anti-error. If you do some searching you will find it spends just as much time refuting the errors of every Christian denomination wherever they are not in agreement with divine Scripture. Secondly, the posts themselves are written as questions come rolling in, not unlike your own “Ask An Apologist” section on this website. Don’t flatter yourselves by thinking that we’re attacking Catholics especially.

Please, cite examples of supposed glaring errors in the site…
…

How about the error of assuming that Jesus spoke to Peter in Greek, and not in Aramaic?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[littlesheep]

Littlesheep, Satan believes in God.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
No - he don’t believe there is a God
He knows there is a God. He don’ believe God. He wants to be GOD. ( please notice I left out the little word “in”)

yours

Please show in Matthew 25 any case whatsoever of people who did no works and made it into heaven. Or, please show in Matthew 25 any case of people who did good works and went to hell. Either will disprove my statements entirely.

mine

There are only 2 groups of people on earth is there not? Those saved and those condemned. I don’t know of any other group. Do you? Only 2, Believers and Unbelievers. Who was He talking about in the group called the sheep?

Make the leap here, the Tiber can’t be that wide.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Peace be with you!

littlesheep:

Is it? Then I will stand corrected. There are only 2 groups of people on earth is there not? Those saved and those condemned. I don’t know of any other group. Do you? Only 2, Believers and Unbelievers. Who was He talking about in the group called the sheep?

Like Lazerlike said, I didn’t mention a third group.

littlesheep:

Your absolutely right read your answer -he MUST have done Good works. Did they know about them?
Is there any body thatt can do good works?

Works of our own? No, it’s God’s grace that allows us to, but we can choose to accept that grace or to ignore it. That is Catholic teaching–that we can’t do good without God.

littlesheep:

So here we have the third group? The unbelievers that knew Jesus? Humm! Does “Every knee will bow” ring a bell? Every one will know who Christ is on Judgment day. That is what Jesus is talking about here is it not ? Judgment day… All other religions in the whole wide world, except Christianity is trying to earn their way to heaven. Go ahead pick another religion.

I didn’t even say anything about unbelievers. Please show me where I did. What did Jesus say to the sheep and the goats? He said “what you did for the least of my people you did for me”. He did not tell the goats “you did not believe in me”. So the assertion here is that they DID believe in him, or else he would have condemned them for unbelievers. Jesus did not condemn them for unbelievers, but for having done no good works.

littlesheep:

Will St Ambrose do?
“I will glory not because I am righteous but because I am redeemed; I will glory not because I am free from sins but because my sins are forgiven me. I will not glory because I have done good nor because someone has done good to me but because Christ is my advocate with the Father and because the blood of Christ has be shed for me.” ( De Jacob et vita beata Cp 6)

Nope, sorry. He says nothing about salvation here. St. Ambrose is simply saying that the good he has done has not been of his own doing, but God through him. That is, again, the Catholic teaching.

littlesheep:

Ah Luther did change his mind on a few things. He did live another 24 years ya know. Read some his latter stuff.

He didn’t change his mind about Our Lady.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[josephdavid]

God’s word is not to be picked apart. It is not to take one side versus the other.

Scripture is to be wholy consumed and the entier Scripture is what we are to live by.

Faith with out works and works with out faith is dead and futile.

If you just use faith alone with in the scripture but ignore the REPEATED scriptures pointing out one must work out their salvation then they are blatently ignoring God. If you do good works with out having faith in Christ then you are ignoring God.

When will we all get this? If I am wrong please tell me. But I have read the Bible serveral times through and yet can not find where it nullifies the other in the case of faith and works. They go hand in hand.