R
- Status
T
talter
Guest
I knew about the gunfight and the Mason distress call. But that’s one I haven’t seen before. Could you point me to the reference?
M
majick275
Guest
no I do not condone his killing. I do believe that he may have had a hand in some murders himself though. (read william laws last interview) why did he abuse his civil authority (gotten by questionable means in the first place) to destroy that press? have you read what was in the nauvoo expositor? he was being outed. the truth was coming out and he feared the reaction. he returned hoping to find a way out rather than risking being hunted down. I don’t think he really expected to die. I really think he believed he could talk his way out of this or that his followers would amass enough might to free him. this was no martyr. this was a darker elmer gantry in over his head. he should have gone to prison. he should not have been shot.
T
talter
Guest
Whoa there sparky!!! No one said it was ok, justified or legal. All that was said was the reason behind his death. That reason does not mean it was the right thing to do nor that anyone approved of the actions.
P
PaulDupre
Guest
CA probably only sent the email to those whose profile lists them as Catholic. I got the email, twice. I agreed with every word.
Paul
P
PaulDupre
Guest
That’s not what he was refering to. It was this:3 Nephi 19: 6: …they did cause that the multitude should kneel down upon the face of the earth, and should pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus.
This is just what mormons do. The pray to the Father in the name of Jesus.
I will get to your other points later.
and this:
and this:
Jesus apparently was very pleased when the Nephites worshipped Him, prayed to Him and called Him their Lord and their God.
Why are Mormons forbidden to do what those in “the most correct book on earth” did?
Paul
P
PaulDupre
Guest
Pa Pa,
Despite what you may have been told, Joseph Smith did not “die for his faith”, nor did he go like a lamb to the slaughter. He was killed in a gunfight with an angry mob who was tired of him stealing their wives and their cattle, printing phony bank notes, and all of the other crimes he committed.
You know, don’t you, that in that gun battle Joseph used his pistol to shoot at the mob. He injured at least two men and may have killed one.
Only in Islam and Mormonism is a martyr someone who dies while killing other people.
Some of the mob were former associates of Smith. When they objected to Smith’s philandering and clandestine affairs with women, he excommunicated them and then proceeded to slander their reputations. They had every reason to be angry with him.
But they should not have shot him to death. That of course was wrong. I am sorry that JS did not live a long life. Eventually he would have been discovered to be a fraud and there would be no Mormon Church today. Joseph’s untimely death was the best thing that ever happened to the LDS.
Paul
T
thirdnep11
Guest
This quote is from the Joseph Smith history and is his account of the first vision.
When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
This is the claim of the Mormon church. You can deny the truthfulness of the vision itself, but do not put words in to Josephs mouth. He did not slander other churches the way people on this site are slandering mine. It is disgraceful. I do not point my finger at you and proclaim that you are wrong, I do not refer to your church as being “a sick joke” as one individual on this site said about mine. I believe that the LDS church is the church established by Christ.
If the “Truth” you proport (the false nature of the LDS church and the divine nature of the Catholic church) is soooooo painfully obvious than why is the LDS church growing? Do you assume that individuals who join the church are in some way less intelligent than you? That we are not smart enough to see through the “lies”?
I read the new testament a number of times prior to my conversion. I was taught for years by my Father all the anti-mormon thoughts and points. I read kingdom of the cults. I drove off a number of missionaries as a young man. I was anti-mormon.
Until I met a young missionary who knew the scriptures better than I did. In short I was converted to the church because of the Bible not in spite of it.
When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
This is the claim of the Mormon church. You can deny the truthfulness of the vision itself, but do not put words in to Josephs mouth. He did not slander other churches the way people on this site are slandering mine. It is disgraceful. I do not point my finger at you and proclaim that you are wrong, I do not refer to your church as being “a sick joke” as one individual on this site said about mine. I believe that the LDS church is the church established by Christ.
If the “Truth” you proport (the false nature of the LDS church and the divine nature of the Catholic church) is soooooo painfully obvious than why is the LDS church growing? Do you assume that individuals who join the church are in some way less intelligent than you? That we are not smart enough to see through the “lies”?
I read the new testament a number of times prior to my conversion. I was taught for years by my Father all the anti-mormon thoughts and points. I read kingdom of the cults. I drove off a number of missionaries as a young man. I was anti-mormon.
Until I met a young missionary who knew the scriptures better than I did. In short I was converted to the church because of the Bible not in spite of it.
I
ibkc
Guest
I’m sorry - you don’t read the above quote as a slander? That our creeds are an abomination and that we are all corrupt? What do you call that if not slander?
H
hosemonkey
Guest
“There are lies, Damned lies and then there are statistics.”
Mark Twain
The mormon “church” trots out all sorts of statistics showing growth. They do not tell you that only one in five “converts” is still active after one year. The rest leave, either to Catholicism, some variety of protestantism or to non-belief. They also do not tell you that even if you leave the LDS cult, your name remains on the rolls forever, unless you petition SLC to remove it. There are hundreds of thousands of “ghost” members on the rolls of the mormon cult.
T
thirdnep11
Guest
Ask Jesus!!!
C
cyberwolf001
Guest
Really the thing I dislike the most is this line:
Think the Mormons are just a group of nice folks who uphold family values, clean living, and American patriotism? Think again.
So are we saying Mormons are not nice?
Do not hold family values?
Do not believe in clean living?
An do not support American patriotism?
This goes from trying to bring people to Christ and stating why the Church holds they do not have the whole truth.
This goes into the kind of slander protestants use on us that crosses the line from “bringing them to Christ” into bigotry.
An example
It is one thing to call our fellow man mistaken. It is another to call him a liar or criminal.
Edit: I clarify nothing wrong with defending the faith. There is something wrong with going to the levels people like Jack Chick and others go to defend protestantism from Catholics.
This isn’t Jack Chick level but it is lower than we need sink and while a baby step in his direction a baby step in a direction we don’t need to go in.
Think the Mormons are just a group of nice folks who uphold family values, clean living, and American patriotism? Think again.
So are we saying Mormons are not nice?
Do not hold family values?
Do not believe in clean living?
An do not support American patriotism?
This goes from trying to bring people to Christ and stating why the Church holds they do not have the whole truth.
This goes into the kind of slander protestants use on us that crosses the line from “bringing them to Christ” into bigotry.
An example
It is one thing to call our fellow man mistaken. It is another to call him a liar or criminal.
Edit: I clarify nothing wrong with defending the faith. There is something wrong with going to the levels people like Jack Chick and others go to defend protestantism from Catholics.
This isn’t Jack Chick level but it is lower than we need sink and while a baby step in his direction a baby step in a direction we don’t need to go in.
H
hosemonkey
Guest
Joe Smith changed his “vision” story too many times for it to be credible. I think that Joe’s “vision” was probably the result more of smoking Maui Wowie than of the divine.
M
mschrank
Guest
Hey be glad I’m not Pope, if I were, I’d call for a general crusade and then when we’d won, I’d ban Mormonism, and JWism, burn down their meeting halls and execute their leaders.
H
hosemonkey
Guest
Harsh, Dude. Where do I sign up? Don’t execute the leaders though, makes fake martyrs. Send 'em to Saudi Arabia.
M
majick275
Guest
you just showed us him doing it in your post. do you really want to pursue this claim? we can trot out Mconkie and Pratt and see what they said.
you just did! read verse 19 in your post.
you just showed us our creed is an abomination in the sight of God. perhaps you would enlighten us as to what in it so abominable? I see that you believe this. we however believe in the account in the Bible as the founding of Christ church. where he established it in person and promised us he would always be with us and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. you can choose to believe that Jesus failed and God abandoned us for 1800 years if you want but I think the evidence proves otherwise.
first of all I think the “growth” is a myth. convert retention is one of the lowest of any religion. activity rates are low too and thus the numbers are pretty misleading. census data seems to show a great disparity in the numbers the LDS church claims and the number of people claiming themselves to be LDS. Many LDs these days are leaving as they discover the truth. any growth can pretty much be attributed to high birth rates but if you factor in activity rates I think you won’t see the booming growth they claim.follow the money and look at the budget cuts. and yes I think the missionaries of the LDS are well trained in sales techniques and do a good job of getting people baptized based on emotion without really teaching them since few of them know much about LDS doctrine and or history.
so if someone knows the bible better than you that makes them right? come on… you may have read the evangelical propaganda against mormons that is easily refuted but how much have you studied early LDS writings? do you not know about the “sanitizing” of works like the DHC to keep the “controversial” or non faith promoting elements out of LDS history lessons? have you heard what happened to LDS historians who told the truth?
I
ibkc
Guest
Oh, my.
My first encounter with Mormons was around 23 years ago. A close friend of mine, a sensitive young girl from a very tough family life and a broken home, befriended a new boy in school, a Mormon, and was totally swept away by the acceptance and friendship she received at the LDS church. I was very happy for her. She told me I would love the LDS church, too, and I was quite open to attending with her, because it sounded interesting and different, and I was dissatisfied with my own church (Episcopalian, for what it’s worth). She brought me a copy of the Book of Mormon, handed it over with great solemnity, convinced that it would change my life just as it had changed hers. I took it home and began reading.
By the end of page one I was skeptical. By the end of the first book of Nephi, I was upset. I kept reading, as the thing unfolded before my eyes getting more and more incredible. Even at the tender age of 16, without any past knowledge of the LDS church or of Joseph Smith’s weird history, I saw the BoM for what it was: a crude attempt by a marginally-educated individual or individuals to make up a new bible by copying the style of the KJV. I was floored by the blatant fabrication of history that the BoM relates, and could not believe that anyone in this day and time would fall for any of it.
There was no Internet that I could access to research it further, so I went to my mother and asked her what she knew. She told me that yes, the Mormon church is completely and utterly crazy, but that Mormons are generally very nice people and not dangerous, so it was OK - I didn’t need to worry for my friend. And she was glad I saw it for what it was.
I was honest with my friend, but not cruel, and while she was disappointed, she didn’t dump me or anything like that. We actually remained in touch for years afterward. She went to some Mormon college out west (Ricks, I think? In Idaho) and then on a mission to Peru. Ten years passed, we met up and had dinner. She was sick of the Mormons, she felt she’d wasted a decade on nothing, she’d decided I had been right all along, and she was in the process of getting out.
Long story to say that if Jesus had wanted me to become a Mormon, the outcome of that initial contact would have been a lot different, I think. All signs I have received have pointed me to the Catholic Church. I ignored them for years, thinking it couldn’t possibly be right. But finally the signs were too numerous to count. I will enter the Church next month and I could not be happier, because this is what Jesus wants.
T
thirdnep11
Guest
very mature. This shows a level of intelligence I obviously cannot stoop to.
H
hosemonkey
Guest
But not quite as low as the intelligence level of those who believe this clap-trap.
P
PapaSquash
Guest
The tone is a bit strident for ny taste but -
What that line says is that Mormons ARE nice folks who uphold clean living, family values and American patriotism. But they are not JUST that. I’ve never met a Mormon I didn’t like personally. If all a religion had to do was provide social support to help a man live an upright life, I’d say that the LDS Church was of benefit to mankind; but the Church ain’t about how you live in this life, it’s about salvation. There is no amount of upright living that gets us there without the work of His Church.
If you are not working to further Jesus’ Apostolic Church, you are at odds with the Almighty’s plan for his people. There is nothing wrong with pointing this out.
We all need to strive to be charitable and pleasant and productive and ethical, because God himself told us that we should, but he also told us that we need to be baptised, to eat the bread of life, and to take up our cross and follow him.
Why are we expected to rail against those who fail at the behavioral ideals while espousing faith in our saviour, (which we are all guaranteed to do) and we are supposed to tiptoe around the fact that some who do reasonably well at the former, have, by the light of our reason, missed very wide of the mark on the latter?
I believe that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus. This institution is the Body of Christ, the single most important thing that exists or has ever exisited in the universe. The LDS Church actively seeks to lead men AWAY from this communion. Does the fact that they are socially inoffensive make it OK to gloss that over?
The fact that so many LDS are reasonably affluent and content is indicative, to me, of one of Mormonism’s dangers. In my limited experience, a man who approaches God in extremis is the more likely to experience deep conversion. A faith that makes me comfortable is of this world, not the next.
- Status