Any Catholics around who reject a teaching or two? Post here!

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

How do you reconcile these assertions with the Catechism, #1272 and 1463?

Easy.

22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.

Hmm…

So, if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that there’s no reconciliation with the Catechism’s assertions that “Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ” and “certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts”? Rather, Mystici trumps them, and renders them irrelevant?

Perhaps there’s some nuance in your answer I’m not seeing?

 

[1AugustSon7]

Hmm…

So, if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that there’s no reconciliation with the Catechism’s assertions that “Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ” and “certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts”? Rather, Mystici trumps them, and renders them irrelevant?

Perhaps there’s some nuance in your answer I’m not seeing?

That nuance is an essential distinction brought up in a previous post. One distinction is that between Divine and ecclesiastical law. Another is that the indellible marks of Baptism or Holy Orders are irrelevant to excommunication, especially *ipso facto *excommunication.

A heretic, for example, is not and never a Catholic, for so long as he is a heretic. They (Catholic, heretic) are contradictory terms. To use emasculated or morally neutral, non-condemnatory speech, he (the heretic) cannot be said to be a member of the Church, or he is said to be seperated from the Church, so long as he does not repent.

 

[vsedriver]

I love her, respect her, and view her as the most respected and honored creature God ever created, but as for her Immaculate conception, assumption, etc; I just can’t consciously accept it. I know Cardinal Newman said, “A thousand difficulties do not equal 1 doubt”, but I do doubt, it is no longer a difficulty.

So with this said, what do I do? I know you can tell me to continue to pray, ask God or Mary herself to reveal herself better to me, etc;…been there and done that. I truly cannot accept these doctrines in good conscience. Suggestions?

Accept that you do not have sufficient understanding to accept them and let it go.

 

[Rence]

What I want to know is why people who reject certain teachings from the Church still want to remain Catholic. Like usually, if that were the case with a protestant, they might change denomination.

Ok well you asked, and so I’ll answer. It’s really no secret that I have a few stumbling blocks with regards to some teachings of the Church, which I really don’t wish to discuss here. I’ll answer why I choose to remain Catholic though.

I was baptised as an infant and raised in a Catholic home. I went to Catholic schools all my life including grammar, high school, college and even university. My family was always the ‘traditional’ family where I grew up. My grandmother was very very religious, always praying and attending daily Mass, and had a prayer room. My mom used to work with the general public and with a lot of kids, and found many opportunities to evangelize and to regularly ‘counsel?’ them by introducing them to St. Jude, St. Michael, Mary, etc. She used to pass out those Pieta (blue) prayer books, give away St. Jude oil, give away Lourdes water, etc. She was well known in the area for being very spiritual and religious and people used to ask her to pray for them. Our very good friends ran the Marian Center, which was about Our Lady of Medjugorje. I realize many people think this was a hoax, but know that many very spiritual and religious people believed in it. There was an Opus Dei house not too far from the house (I didn’t like them, found them to be cultist, but that was my experience with them, everyone’s is different I suppose). My father was the black sheep of the family, and he’s no longer with us. My brother attended a high school seminary preparatory and somehow during his last year there became very angry with God and lost his faith in the Church over whatever happened there. To this day, he wants nothing to do with the Church and we can’t even talk about the Church in his presence without him getting sooooo angry and agitated.

So mom, grandma and I were quite spiritual through rough times and good times. So, it wasn’t until I happened upon CAF that I was ever considered liberal or even not a good Catholic. So really, why would I want to leave the Church just because I encountered an online community who demands me to think the way the conservative ones do? Since coming to CAF, I’ve realized I’m a lot more spiritual than ‘religous’ because the Catholicism here on CAF is very foreign to me. I’ve learned a lot from CAF and they’re a wonderful resource, but it’s not going to change me or my life decisions…and it’s not going to make me leave a Church that I grew up in

I still remain Catholic, frankly, because because that’s what I am, and that’s what the Church says I am (there’s that indelible mark of Baptism that the Church claims makes me Catholic forever), and there isn’t a better option. Any option is missing something. There isn’t another religion that has all that the Catholic Church has, but without all the rules rules and more rules. Since coming here, I realize that I actually lean towards Eastern Orthodoxy in a big way. IMMHO I find them less legalistic and more about loving God. But my family is Roman Catholic and that’s how I was raised. Frankly I find the differences between Eastern and Roman so insignificant that to me it doesn’t matter to leave one for the other. They both have apolostic succession. So that’s why I haven’t made that move. I’m content to stay where I am.

And really, I don’t have to leave, and there are no consquences for not being conservative and/or radical. It’s not like the civil laws mimic the laws of the Church, and there is no consequence for being a free thinker. In addition, I only get fussed at here, not in real life. Back in the times when Protestants were trying to separate from the Church, the laws of the secular government were based on the laws of the Church, and the secular authorities would severely punish people suspected of not following the rules of the Church. We don’t have that now. So there is no reason in the world for me to either go against my conscience and be who I am not, or leave. And again, the Church itself claims I’m Catholic even if I do leave, so why bother.

 

[Rence]

Thanks for clarifying.
The answer to your question is people remain Catholic because they believe! I believe in Catholicism even though at times I find the road difficult. The fact is that even though we may be people of faith, Catholics are thinkers. We cannot live by blind faith in the Church. It’s not possible and those who say they don’t question anything are not being truthful. Our lives are about questions and answers and seeking the truth with humility and courage. I am Catholic because I love the Church…I have to believe there is something to it,even when I am confused and the road is rough.

Yes. Spirituality is a journey, and it changes over time. Most people who are honest with themselves know that their way of thinking and understanding changes on this journey.

 

[Rence]

So does that mean that all sinners are no longer Catholic?

It means that Cafeteria Catholics have many choices available on the buffet. Some have difficulty with going to Church on Sunday. Some have difficulty with the teachings of the Church with regards to contraception. Some even have difficulty with the Church’s teaching on the indelible mark made on the soul by Baptism. I personally think that everyone has stumbling blocks that they have to work through on their spiritual journey through life…

 

[Rence]

Who is Tom Brady? New England Patriots?

Anyway, your example is a bad one. When we are baptised we receive a mark that cannot be taken away. That means it cannot be taken away even by sin. Hence why we are always Catholic, always have the Holy Spirit, and always have the promise of redemption. A sin does not remove that mark, only stains your soul. It can always be washed away with an honest confession and plea for forgiveness.

You seem to be talking a little like a Calvinist.

You’re right about the indelible mark made by Baptism. I think some people are confused about what ‘excommunication’ means. It doesn’t mean one is not Catholic anymore. On the contrary, while it means they can’t receive Communion anymore, the are still required to fulfill their other Catholic obligations like attending Mass, etc. It doesn’t mean one is not Catholic anymore, ever. It means they have done something (or not done something) which has led them to be not in communion with the Church and are not fit to receive Communion, but still Catholic.