Any Catholics around who reject a teaching or two? Post here!

[chaunceygardner]

What options would you have put there?

The reasons some stay aren’t despite doctrine but *because of *other factors, such as participating in the Sacraments and the liturgy, a feeling of belonging and being part of a Catholic parish community, or even inertia, in the sense that someone who is born and raised Catholic and has an extensive base of Catholic family and friends will be more likely to stay.

Your second choice uses the terms “choose to ignore” the teachings that one opposes. You should have included another choice for those who “hope that changes will occur”; they are not ignoring the issues at all. Also your last choice uses the word “often”; some may just consider leaving “sometimes” or when things are going really poorly, or when they are personally affected by some rule or process.

Another reason that one could include is that people may actually voice their concerns or disagreements but are told “it’s okay”. And not just from their family and friends, but also from the clergy. Over the years I have spoken to several priests about my “issues” and not once has any of them said that I should even consider leaving. I even asked one point blank, “Can I still remain a Catholic and participate in the liturgy and Sacraments?”, and he responded yes. All of them have assured me that I am not unusual or alone in my doubts and disagreements.

You remind me of someone.

See, I said above I was not alone.

Is there any reason as to why you don’t have “Catholic” in your religious title?

Of course. The main reason I changed it here is that, when I first joined and posted, I was often attacked for stating certain things as a “Catholic”. So I changed my label, and the attacks declined. Originally, I called myself a “Disciple of Jesus”, with an upper case “D”, and some thought I was a member of some Protestant church or sect, which led to some strange and amusing responses to my posts. After Brother JR, one of my favorite members of this forum, and others pointed out how my religious label could be mis-understood, I changed “Disciple” to “a disciple”.

I chose that particular religious label because “a disciple of Jesus” is what ALL Christians should be, including Catholics. There was no “Catholic” Church at the beginning, but there were disciples of Jesus who lived and proclaimed the Gospel. And while I label myself in that way, I cannot claim to be on the level of the first disciples, but am striving to be as much like them as I can and to follow Jesus with “all my strength, heart, and mind”.

I see myself as “a disciple of Jesus” within the tradition and community of the Catholic Church. I am Baptized, Confirmed and Married in the Church, rarely miss a Sunday or Holy Day Mass, have been appointed or elected to several positions within the parishes I have been a member of, have served as a Lector and Extra-Ordinary Eucharistic Minister, and volunteer to help wherever needed. I even spent several years teaching Confirmation candidates (scary thought for some, right?). I count several priests as friends, and think they are in general the backbone of the Church (along with us laity). And yes, I disagree with some of the teachings of the Church. But lo and behold, there are hundreds of Catholics in my current and past parishes that are just like me!

To me the Catholic Church is “spirit”; it is not principally structure, doctrines or hierarchy. That is the functional, organizational church. The core of the Church is “spirit”, that is found in a faith that is beyond all understanding or definition, that is found in the Gospel of Jesus and in those who follow Jesus in living and spreading the Gospel. Too often we have forgotten or neglected that essential aspect of our Church. The Popes in my lifetime have constantly reminded us of that, and many try to remove the cover that hides the Light of the Spirit from fully shining forth. I try to do my small part.

 

[Zundrah]

The reasons some stay aren’t despite doctrine but *because of *other factors, such as participating in the Sacraments and the liturgy, a feeling of belonging and being part of a Catholic parish community, or even inertia, in the sense that someone who is born and raised Catholic and has an extensive base of Catholic family and friends will be more likely to stay.

Your second choice uses the terms “choose to ignore” the teachings that one opposes. You should have included another choice for those who “hope that changes will occur”; they are not ignoring the issues at all. Also your last choice uses the word “often”; some may just consider leaving “sometimes” or when things are going really poorly, or when they are personally affected by some rule or process.

Another reason that one could include is that people may actually voice their concerns or disagreements but are told “it’s okay”. And not just from their family and friends, but also from the clergy. Over the years I have spoken to several priests about my “issues” and not once has any of them said that I should even consider leaving. I even asked one point blank, “Can I still remain a Catholic and participate in the liturgy and Sacraments?”, and he responded yes. All of them have assured me that I am not unusual or alone in my doubts and disagreements.

See, I said above I was not alone.

Of course. The main reason I changed it here is that, when I first joined and posted, I was often attacked for stating certain things as a “Catholic”. So I changed my label, and the attacks declined. Originally, I called myself a “Disciple of Jesus”, with an upper case “D”, and some thought I was a member of some Protestant church or sect, which led to some strange and amusing responses to my posts. After Brother JR, one of my favorite members of this forum, and others pointed out how my religious label could be mis-understood, I changed “Disciple” to “a disciple”.

I chose that particular religious label because “a disciple of Jesus” is what ALL Christians should be, including Catholics. There was no “Catholic” Church at the beginning, but there were disciples of Jesus who lived and proclaimed the Gospel. And while I label myself in that way, I cannot claim to be on the level of the first disciples, but am striving to be as much like them as I can and to follow Jesus with “all my strength, heart, and mind”.

I see myself as “a disciple of Jesus” within the tradition and community of the Catholic Church. I am Baptized, Confirmed and Married in the Church, rarely miss a Sunday or Holy Day Mass, have been appointed or elected to several positions within the parishes I have been a member of, have served as a Lector and Extra-Ordinary Eucharistic Minister, and volunteer to help wherever needed. I even spent several years teaching Confirmation candidates (scary thought for some, right?). I count several priests as friends, and think they are in general the backbone of the Church (along with us laity). And yes, I disagree with some of the teachings of the Church. But lo and behold, there are hundreds of Catholics in my current and past parishes that are just like me!

To me the Catholic Church is “spirit”; it is not principally structure, doctrines or hierarchy. That is the functional, organizational church. The core of the Church is “spirit”, that is found in a faith that is beyond all understanding or definition, that is found in the Gospel of Jesus and in those who follow Jesus in living and spreading the Gospel. Too often we have forgotten or neglected that essential aspect of our Church. The Popes in my lifetime have constantly reminded us of that, and many try to remove the cover that hides the Light of the Spirit from fully shining forth. I try to do my small part.

About changing the title and seeing differences in how people treat you. That really is a problem here. Some will constantly indicate that they are “suspicious” and “concerned” as to your intentions on every thread you might open in the apologetics forum. I actually believe that they are searching for a good stimulating argument, for their entertainment and if they don’t find, they make it, or at least try to. I don’t bite the bait these days.

When I first came to CAF I knew absolutely nothing about what made Catholics different from “Christians”. I’d at that point never heard the term protestant. I learned its meaning here, along with a lot of other things.

I did react to things I learned about in a childish manner, I’ll admit. When I look back at the post I made here I’m shocked I even said the things I did. I’ve never really been anti-Catholic however. I remember I once asked “the Catholic bible has 7 more books in it”? Since I had seen it stated on a thread. It was news to me but because I met it with such shock I was apparently being “anti-Catholic”. No, I was just reacting.

I never even knew that Catholics believed the Eucharist to be Christ flesh, nor the wine His blood. It was all news to me. I didn’t even know why communion was being done every day at the Catholic Church I started going to.

I remember posting “This Sunday I’m going to attend that Catholic Church nearby” and I was too scared to go in alone. lol. A few weeks later I eventually did it.

My only guidance was what I got here. I had a people supporting me in PM. I learned so much and I will never regret dipping into the Church’s ocean of literature.

I think there are Catholics here who reject more than I do. And you are very accurate, we all have our doubts here and there but we just know best to go onwards without making too drastic a change. Well I did, I simply changed my religious title.

 

[chaunceygardner]

…My only guidance was what I got here. I had a people supporting me in PM. I learned so much and I will never regret dipping into the Church’s ocean of literature.

I think there are Catholics here who reject more than I do. And you are very accurate, we all have our doubts here and there but we just know best to go onwards without making too drastic a change. Well I did, I simply changed my religious title.

I am glad you found direction and support here. I have learned a ton since I have been on CAF. It has been a great resource for learning about many aspects of our faith (and much more) and directing me to other resources.

You are certainly correct about people here who have questions and doubts. A great many of the threads come from that pool of members. We must always remember that even in the Gospel there were disciples and others who doubted, who questioned, who did not understand what Jesus was all about. Especially amongst the educated elite and religious leaders. And then there were those who were the least of the least who figured it out right away and were commended for their “great faith” and for being near the Realm of God.

 

[Holly3278]

I don’t reject any of the teachings of the Church. I accept every single one of the Church’s teachings because they were all revealed to us by God who cannot deceive nor be deceived.

 

[St_Francis]

what bothers me is not people who have questions aboit Church teaching–that’s normal. Where I live, the priests are so few that it is hard for them to be able to answer questions, and lay people of varying understanding are in charge of things like RCIA. My children came home from CCD in our old parish and said their teacher didn’t know about Purgatory.

What I don’t like are people who deny Church teachings, who have the attitude that since they don’t like the teaching, it just isn’t. This happens a lot with birth control: “why should I listen to a bunch of celibate men about what I do with my body?” <<that type. They are different from the ones who say, I don’t understand this teaching, what’s wrong with birth control?

And those who actually spread their falsehoods about Church teaching, the ones who agitate for changes in teachings… it’s one thing to be ignorant, it’s one thing to not understand, it’s another thing even to reject… but to lead others astray by lies, or to try to change something God has instituted…

Christ said whoever would lead ones of these little ones astray, better for them to have a millstone tied around their neck and for them to be thrown into the sea.

I do not think with your questions that you are doing anything bad. You are grappling with these issues, and it can be tough. As someone who was raised secular and returned to the Church in her 30s, I find bad thinking and ideas in my mind all the time. That’s why I so often have to change my opinions.

About changing the title and seeing differences in how people treat you. That really is a problem here. Some will constantly indicate that they are “suspicious” and “concerned” as to your intentions on every thread you might open in the apologetics forum. I actually believe that they are searching for a good stimulating argument, for their entertainment and if they don’t find, they make it, or at least try to. I don’t bite the bait these days.

When I first came to CAF I knew absolutely nothing about what made Catholics different from “Christians”. I’d at that point never heard the term protestant. I learned its meaning here, along with a lot of other things.

I did react to things I learned about in a childish manner, I’ll admit. When I look back at the post I made here I’m shocked I even said the things I did. I’ve never really been anti-Catholic however. I remember I once asked “the Catholic bible has 7 more books in it”? Since I had seen it stated on a thread. It was news to me but because I met it with such shock I was apparently being “anti-Catholic”. No, I was just reacting.

I never even knew that Catholics believed the Eucharist to be Christ flesh, nor the wine His blood. It was all news to me. I didn’t even know why communion was being done every day at the Catholic Church I started going to.

I remember posting “This Sunday I’m going to attend that Catholic Church nearby” and I was too scared to go in alone. lol. A few weeks later I eventually did it.

My only guidance was what I got here. I had a people supporting me in PM. I learned so much and I will never regret dipping into the Church’s ocean of literature.

I think there are Catholics here who reject more than I do. And you are very accurate, we all have our doubts here and there but we just know best to go onwards without making too drastic a change. Well I did, I simply changed my religious title.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

If it is a de fide teaching, and you realize that, and you persist in your dissent, then you place yourself outside the Church (excommunication). Therefore, you are no longer a Catholic. (…)

I’m not sure about the excommunication but I’m absolutely certain dissent does not make one “no longer a Catholic.”

 

[Carlan]

.

You are certainly correct about people here who have questions and doubts. A great many of the threads come from that pool of members. We must always remember that even in the Gospel there were disciples and others who doubted, who questioned, who did not understand what Jesus was all about. Especially amongst the educated elite and religious leaders. And then there were those who were the least of the least who figured it out right away and were commended for their “great faith” and for being near the Realm of God.

Yes, and we all fall short in our pride still.We pray for the gift of humility…not to lean our own understanding.
Peace, Carlan

 

[Zundrah]

This thread got drowned under all my subscriptions.

 

[Zundrah]

what bothers me is not people who have questions aboit Church teaching–that’s normal. Where I live, the priests are so few that it is hard for them to be able to answer questions, and lay people of varying understanding are in charge of things like RCIA. My children came home from CCD in our old parish and said their teacher didn’t know about Purgatory.

What I don’t like are people who deny Church teachings, who have the attitude that since they don’t like the teaching, it just isn’t. This happens a lot with birth control: “why should I listen to a bunch of celibate men about what I do with my body?” <<that type. They are different from the ones who say, I don’t understand this teaching, what’s wrong with birth control?

And those who actually spread their falsehoods about Church teaching, the ones who agitate for changes in teachings… it’s one thing to be ignorant, it’s one thing to not understand, it’s another thing even to reject… but to lead others astray by lies, or to try to change something God has instituted…

Christ said whoever would lead ones of these little ones astray, better for them to have a millstone tied around their neck and for them to be thrown into the sea.

I do not think with your questions that you are doing anything bad. You are grappling with these issues, and it can be tough. As someone who was raised secular and returned to the Church in her 30s, I find bad thinking and ideas in my mind all the time. That’s why I so often have to change my opinions.

There is always going to be an amount of Catholics that say their opinions along with real teachings like a cocktail mingle. It’s confusing for people who want to learn. But this will always be.

I myself can never understand how a Catholic could disagree with an infallible teaching and then go on to pursue the enforcement of their ideas.

 

[Zundrah]

I am glad you found direction and support here. I have learned a ton since I have been on CAF. It has been a great resource for learning about many aspects of our faith (and much more) and directing me to other resources.

You are certainly correct about people here who have questions and doubts. A great many of the threads come from that pool of members. We must always remember that even in the Gospel there were disciples and others who doubted, who questioned, who did not understand what Jesus was all about. Especially amongst the educated elite and religious leaders. And then there were those who were the least of the least who figured it out right away and were commended for their “great faith” and for being near the Realm of God.

If not for CAF I don’t think I would have found out what was happening in that Catholic Church I walked into quite some time ago now, or even if I would have go on to want to know more thereafter.

 

[shawnhd45]

I have been a convert to the Catholic Church for nearly 3 years now… I have read books, tracts, talked to apologetic Catholics, prayed, been to multiple priest and have researched in depth… the Marian doctrines. I still am NOT convinced of what the Church teaches about her. I love her, respect her, and view her as the most respected and honored creature God ever created, but as for her Immaculate conception, assumption, etc; I just can’t consciously accept it. I know Cardinal Newman said, “A thousand difficulties do not equal 1 doubt”, but I do doubt, it is no longer a difficulty.

So with this said, what do I do? I know you can tell me to continue to pray, ask God or Mary herself to reveal herself better to me, etc;…been there and done that. I truly cannot accept these doctrines in good conscience. Suggestions?

 

[Zundrah]

I have been a convert to the Catholic Church for nearly 3 years now… I have read books, tracts, talked to apologetic Catholics, prayed, been to multiple priest and have researched in depth… the Marian doctrines. I still am NOT convinced of what the Church teaches about her. I love her, respect her, and view her as the most respected and honored creature God ever created, but as for her Immaculate conception, assumption, etc; I just can’t consciously accept it. I know Cardinal Newman said, “A thousand difficulties do not equal 1 doubt”, but I do doubt, it is no longer a difficulty.

So with this said, what do I do? I know you can tell me to continue to pray, ask God or Mary herself to reveal herself better to me, etc;…been there and done that. I truly cannot accept these doctrines in good conscience. Suggestions?

I feel the same way. I can only assume that it is just not Gods right time for me to come home yet.

 

[Luvtosew]

I have been a convert to the Catholic Church for nearly 3 years now… I have read books, tracts, talked to apologetic Catholics, prayed, been to multiple priest and have researched in depth… the Marian doctrines. I still am NOT convinced of what the Church teaches about her. I love her, respect her, and view her as the most respected and honored creature God ever created, but as for her Immaculate conception, assumption, etc; I just can’t consciously accept it. I know Cardinal Newman said, “A thousand difficulties do not equal 1 doubt”, but I do doubt, it is no longer a difficulty.

So with this said, what do I do? I know you can tell me to continue to pray, ask God or Mary herself to reveal herself better to me, etc;…been there and done that. I truly cannot accept these doctrines in good conscience. Suggestions?

No but I do think those are minor things , as it doesn’t matter if she was assumed into heaven or not. I give it no mind as I’m sure she is in heaven , how she got there is not imp. to me. She has always been the Blessed Virgin Mary to me and yes deserves respect.

I have come to doubt more important teachings so the BVM is not a big issue, and surely not one to leave the CC on.

 

[Carlan]

No but I do think those are minor things , as it doesn’t matter if she was assumed into heaven or not. I give it no mind as I’m sure she is in heaven , how she got there is not imp. to me. She has always been the Blessed Virgin Mary to me and yes deserves respect.

I have come to doubt more important teachings so the BVM is not a big issue, and surely not one to leave the CC on.

We pray,'Lord, I believe help my unbelief ’
Ask for the gift of complete trust in the Magisterium(Christ’s teaching authority) and the wisdom given to the Church by the Holy Spirit over these past 2000 years.
Peace, Carlan

 

[tiflemetry]

As a sufferer of postpartum depression and psychosis, which landed me in the psych hospital for a week for suicidal plans. I don’t think the church should tell me to abstain from my husband to prevent it happening again, figuring I had 20+ more years of childbearing age. I chose sterilization, I take responsibility, I am open to new life through adoption, but I don’t think that only men should be able to determine if this was right or wrong. Depression looks easy to treat, on paper, but it is 3.5 years later, and we are still tweaking meds. I am working on my profession of faith, but that is the teaching I most disagree with. NOT that it should be a common occurrence, but, I think in the matter of the health of the mother being gravely affected, there should be understanding.

Just my opinion, I know there are tons of people on here that disagree with that, but I am not trying to convince anyone I am right. I just am voicing my answer to the question.

 

[Luvtosew]

As a sufferer of postpartum depression and psychosis, which landed me in the psych hospital for a week for suicidal plans. I don’t think the church should tell me to abstain from my husband to prevent it happening again, figuring I had 20+ more years of childbearing age. I chose sterilization, I take responsibility, I am open to new life through adoption, but I don’t think that only men should be able to determine if this was right or wrong. Depression looks easy to treat, on paper, but it is 3.5 years later, and we are still tweaking meds. I am working on my profession of faith, but that is the teaching I most disagree with. NOT that it should be a common occurrence, but, I think in the matter of the health of the mother being gravely affected, there should be understanding.

Just my opinion, I know there are tons of people on here that disagree with that, but I am not trying to convince anyone I am right. I just am voicing my answer to the question.

I’m very sorry you have and still are going through so much. There are many issues that need to be taken into account of every situation I agree. God Bless.

 

[1AugustSon7]

once catholic, always catholic.

be it lapsed/non-practicing/cafeteria/etc.

False.

No one considers Martin Luther to have been a Catholic.

 

[Luvtosew]

We had a big discussion on another thread not long ago , if OCAC and there was an article that said yes once baptised Catholic always Catholic. Of course the CC and the person may have a difference of opinion on that.

 

[Gorgias]

No one considers Martin Luther to have been a Catholic.

Ever?

Wow… I guess the bishop who ordained him a Catholic priest would be surprised to hear that, huh? :sad_yes:

 

[1AugustSon7]

We had a big discussion on another thread not long ago , if OCAC and there was an article that said yes once baptised Catholic always Catholic. Of course the CC and the person may have a difference of opinion on that.

There is no such thing as “baptized Catholic” - or rather, it is redundant. One is either baptized or not, and if one is baptized he is baptized by the Church and a member of the Church.

The Church does not have an opinion on this issue. She has the correct and authoritative teaching on the matter: Heresy, schism and apostasy seperate members of the Church from the Church. Such are not merely dead members; they are, in reality, non-members.

A Catholic, by definition, is a baptized member of the Church who professes the true Faith. To lack either of these qualifications is to not be a Catholic.