Any Episcopalians in the house?

[ChurchSoldier]

What about a female priest?

romancatholicwomenpriests.org/ordained.htm

But I think GKC is more accurate…

 

[ChurchSoldier]

What do Episcopalians think about the fact that Jesus started the Roman Catholic Church?

Why does it always lead here???

 

[Abu]

virgo #34
I’m just finding that the legalistic nature of Catholicism runs contrary to what I truly believe, especially its rigidity in the face of real (messy) life. There are so many centuries of magisterial law upon magisterial law (that Jesus never even preached), even though my life doesn’t actually run counter to most of those laws, its hard to breathe.
That together with the legalistic rigidity of Catholicism is what has me taking another look at the Episcopal church.

That is precisely why “what (you) truly believe” needs to be examined and aligned with what Jesus actually taught.

So what did Jesus actually teach?

The first error is in disregarding the mandate of Jesus, the Son of God, in installing Peter as His Supreme Vicar:
**All four promises to Peter alone: **
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." (Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) ; [Later, also to the Twelve]

**Sole authority: **
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

The second error is in disregarding history.
Already, Peter had exercised his supreme authority in the upper room before Pentecost to have Judas’ place filled. At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Peter settled the heated discussion over circumcising the gentiles and “the whole assembly fell silent” (Acts 15:7-12). Paul made sure that his ministry to the gentiles was recognised by, Peter (Gal 1:I8).

The third successor of St Peter, Clement, wrote to the Catholics of Corinth in A.D. 95: “If any man should be disobedient unto the words spoken by God through us, let them understand that they will entangle themselves in no slight transgression and danger… Render obedience to the things written by us through the Holy Spirit.” (I Clem. ad Cor. 59,1). This Is The Faith, Francis J Ripley, Fowler Wright Books, 1971, p 151; 139-141].

Now with that authority, and legality, from God Himself, do you accuse God still of being “too rigid “ for your taste?

 

[Abu]

Thorolfr #57
Is it really a fact that Jesus started the Roman Catholic Church?

Yes, see post #61.

The Church founded by Jesus of Nazareth is universal. Catholic was first used by St Ignatius of Antioch in his letter to the Smyrneans, A.D. 107, “Where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” It is from the Greek katholike meaning “general” or “universal”. Within 90 years it meant also “orthodox” or faithful to the teachings of Christ. (The Catholic Catechism, Fr John A Hardon, S.J., Doubleday, 1975, p 217).

 

[Abu]

Potter #50
Now Catholicism is a significant influence on my worldview, though I don’t know if I could ever be accepted as a Catholic: I spent too many years as a rationalistic skeptic to be able to sincerely profess belief in many articles of faith, even though I wish I could believe them.

With what articles of faith and morals do you have problems, and what are they?

 

[Novocastrian]

Catholic was first used by St Ignatius of Antioch in his letter to the Smyrneans, A.D. 107, “Where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

As I’m sure you know, Anglicans (a) believe they have Jesus Christ, and (b) profess belief in the holy catholic church.

 

[virgo]

Abu, it is not the rigid laws of Christ I’m speaking of, but the trickled down church laws that I have a problem with: no IVF allowed for childless women, no female clergy (there is in fact a female priest mentioned in the NT), and I also feel that although Peter was assigned as the first Pope, he sure was a misogynist! Althouh I have to swallow that one, since Jesus himself felt he was worthy.

 

[Thorolfr]

Yes, see post #61.

The Church founded by Jesus of Nazareth is universal. Catholic was first used by St Ignatius of Antioch in his letter to the Smyrneans, A.D. 107, “Where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” It is from the Greek katholike meaning “general” or “universal”. Within 90 years it meant also “orthodox” or faithful to the teachings of Christ. (The Catholic Catechism, Fr John A Hardon, S.J., Doubleday, 1975, p 217).

The letter from Ignatius is more than 70 years after the death of Jesus and how is it verifiable that the church of Ignatius is the same one founded by Jesus? Nor can we just take the words of Acts or the gospels or other books in the Bible as all being verifiable facts about what Jesus or his immediate followers said or did. Most of what is in them has not been independently verified by numerous other non-Christian or non-“orthodox” sources. There is even considerable disagreement among historians as to who the authors of any of those books were. Most of this is part of faith and part of a tradition that was mostly cleansed of non-orthodox view points, not verifiable historical fact.

 

[namax91]

(There is in fact a female priest mentioned in the NT)

Really? Could you give me the verse?

I also feel that although Peter was assigned as the first Pope, he sure was a misogynist!

Even if he was a misogynist, how would this affect whether or not he was the first Pope?

The guy who started the Anglican church wasn’t exactly a defender of women’s rights.

 

[namax91]

Why does it always lead here???

Well, if Jesus only started one Church, wouldn’t that mean that He would want you to be a member of that Church? Ultimately, the Anglican church was started by Henry VIII, but it doesn’t matter who founded it, when ultimately it was not Christ.

 

[Contarini]

Abu, it is not the rigid laws of Christ I’m speaking of, but the trickled down church laws that I have a problem with: no IVF allowed for childless women, no female clergy (there is in fact a female priest mentioned in the NT), and I also feel that although Peter was assigned as the first Pope, he sure was a misogynist! Althouh I have to swallow that one, since Jesus himself felt he was worthy.

What is particularly misogynistic about Peter? Are you talking about some of the teachings in 1 Peter?

And I don’t know who this female priest might be either. Do you mean Junia, who is referred to as an apostle or known to the apostles, and who may have been a man or a woman? That’s a fascinating but shaky bit of evidence, and I wouldn’t simply equate “apostle” to “priest,” though of course that’s often what Catholics do!

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Well, if Jesus only started one Church, wouldn’t that mean that He would want you to be a member of that Church? Ultimately, the Anglican church was started by Henry VIII, but it doesn’t matter who founded it, when ultimately it was not Christ.

Henry VIII is not the “ultimate” founder of the Anglican Church. There is no such thing as an “Anglican Church” existing as some kind of rival to the Catholic Church. There is an organized body of Christians in England, and throughout the world in communion with the C of E, going back to the mission of St. Augustine in the sixth century. Under Henry (and finally under Elizabeth I after a return under Mary I), this body of Christians became independent of Rome. From an Anglican point of view, that does not constitute leaving the Church Christ founded.

I understand that Catholics disagree, but the point is that putting it as you do “begs the question.”

Edwin

 

[Thorolfr]

Are you talking about some of the teachings in 1 Peter?

1 Peter could hardly have been written by the Peter who was the disciple of Christ. Scholars have pointed out that the style of the letter indicates an author who was quite familiar with and trained in Greek rhetoric which hardly sounds like something that would have been written by a Jewish fisherman from Galilee.

 

[Abu]

Novocastrian #64
As I’m sure you know, Anglicans (a) believe they have Jesus Christ, and (b) profess belief in the holy catholic church.

Without a valid priesthood there can be no Holy Mass and no consecration. To believe in the Catholic Church is to profess assent to all dogma and doctrine. Jesus founded only the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church does not recognize Anglican or Lutheran orders as valid.
tinyurl.com/l5l6pm6

 

[benjohnson]

1 Peter could hardly have been written by the Peter who was the disciple of Christ. Scholars have pointed out that the style of the letter indicates an author who was quite familiar with and trained in Greek rhetoric which hardly sounds like something that would have been written by a Jewish fisherman from Galilee.

Those theories are easily refuted:

1. Peter could have dictated to a scribe.
2. Peter could have learned Greek in his ministry. Heck, I’m learning Koine Greek - and I’m not a apostle with a gift Holy Spirit. I’m just a family man with a Commodore 64 who argues on the internet.

 

[Thorolfr]

Those theories are easily refuted:

1. Peter could have dictated to a scribe.
2. Peter could have learned Greek in his ministry. Heck, I’m learning Koine Greek - and I’m not a apostle with a gift Holy Spirit. I’m just a family man with a Commodore 64 who argues on the internet.

It’s the structure of the letter not just its language that indicates a knowledge of Greek rhetoric, so when would Peter have had this kind of education? As someone who has studied many foreign languages including Arabic, Turkish, Hebrew, Greek and German, I know that there is a big difference between gaining a rudimentary knowledge of those languages and being a skilled and polished writer in them.

This reminds me of John Calvin’s Treatise on Relics of 1543 in which he observed that St. Peter’s slipper preserved as a relic at Poitier is incongruously “made of satin embroidered with gold…See how they make him stylish after his death as a compensation for the poverty which he had during his lifetime” (I’m not sure if the slipper is still there).

Good observation about the slipper on Calvin’s part. How likely is it that a fisherman from Galilee would have had a gold embroidered satin slipper? And how likely is it that he would have been a polished writer in Greek or had a knowledge of Greek rhetoric?

 

[Contarini]

1 Peter could hardly have been written by the Peter who was the disciple of Christ. Scholars have pointed out that the style of the letter indicates an author who was quite familiar with and trained in Greek rhetoric which hardly sounds like something that would have been written by a Jewish fisherman from Galilee.

Right. Although it’s possible that the style is that of an amanuensis.

I was not committing myself to the view that Peter wrote 1 Peter, but asking whether that is what virgo had in mind. I can’t think of anything that Peter does in the Gospels or Acts that is particularly misogynistic.

Edwin

 

[ericc]

I’m just finding that the legalistic nature of Catholicism runs contrary to what I truly believe, especially its rigidity in the face of real (messy) life. There are so many centuries of magisterial law upon magisterial law (that Jesus never even preached), even though my life doesn’t actually run counter to most of those laws, its hard to breathe.

But which one is speaking truth? The Church or your own beliefs? By what criteria do you decide what you believe to be true and the Church false? Have you spoken to others who are knowledgeable about magisterial law to determine the truthfulness of its teachings? Surely you are not a Bible only catholic?

I’m also finding that Catholics in my generation are getting off track, especially in the zealous Catholic parents I see that are shouting about issues that have nothing to do with Catholicism, yet they pair it anyway, such as anti-vaccination views, anti-gun limitations, and homeschooling (they’re also anti-common core). In short, there is a growing “anti” movement, and I find it’s negativity appalling and completely off-topic from Christ’s message. That together with the legalistic rigidity of Catholicism is what has me taking another look at the Episcopal church.

Why should the personal non-salvation beliefs of others affect the choice of your church? If you know the history of the Church, you would have known she is the Church that Jesus founded and built on Peter. And He promised that she will never teach error and that The HS will teach all truths. To go away from Her is to admit that Jesus guarantee is false if you assert the Church taught falsehoods and that the HS didn’t guide the Church into all truths i…e He lied. I am just taken aback by what you wrote. Life is messy at every generation, century. The Church teachings are good for all times. She doesn’t need to be trendy to teach truth.

 

[Thorolfr]

But which one is speaking truth? The Church or your own beliefs? By what criteria do you decide what you believe to be true and the Church false?

There are no easy answers to these kinds of questions. Last year I read two biographies of Joseph Smith and was surprised at how many holes there are in our knowledge of the Mormon prophet even though he lived less than two hundred years ago. To me, Joseph Smith is not a very convincing prophet and many of the teachings of the Mormon church seem patently false, but the Mormon church is nevertheless one of the fastest growing churches in the US and has a membership of over 15 million. How I ask myself can 15 million people believe that Joseph Smith was really a prophet and be convinced by Mormon teachings? The only thing I can conclude is that people (myself included) can seemingly believe almost anything which is a little humbling for me and makes me wonder why I believe what I do as a Lutheran and why that is more demonstrably true to me than Mormonism or Catholicism? So why do any of us believe in the religions, churches or denominations that we believe in? What do we find convincing in one but not in another and why?

 

[esieffe]

Ironic. I was an Episcopalian, and converted to Catholicism. I never looked back. As a bonus, my father is an Episcopalian priest, retired.

My Dad’s church was big, he was there for 15 years. It was more like a country club then a church. People were nice, but I was the “preachers kid.” The congregation was conservative. They didn’t like touchy feely at all.

It was a great life for me growing up. I got to stay at all of these rich parishioner’s vacation homes, my parents went to all these parties, and I was so very charming. The whole thing was empty. As a child, I was an alter boy, and I had faith. When I got older, I found out my father had lost his faith.

I loved the rich liturgy, the stained glass, the dark woods and the marble. The music was awsome, and the church, the building itself, was my personal playground during the summers.

When I grew up, I began to drift spiritually. The Episcopal church lacked… I don’t know… teeth? There was no accountability. All other denominations left me cold. I tried them all save the really scary Protestant ones. The Catholic church appealed to me a great deal, but being in my 20’s and no sex till marriage? Hmmm.

So I entered what I refer to as my wandering in the desert years. I had a blast in the 80s and made money in the 90s, but I was empty. I needed God, but I kept looking in the wrong places. That was when I became a seeker. Nothing worked, everything seemed like a play, a show. The weight of sin got heavier and heavier all the while. I was basically still a good person, but the hypocrisy I saw everywhere was too much.

To make a long story short, it took me hitting a hard spiritual, financial, and emotional bottom before coming back. I KNEW in my heart of hearts, the only redemption for me would be confession, confession to a REAL priest. I began a long look at Catholicism and finally went. I never regretted it.

Every Mass is a joy. Catholicism isn’t about one day a week, one hour, sitting in a pew. It is every day, every moment in a universal church that is still is plugged in to God. I FEEL it. I feel it the most in adoration, and confession. I feel it in the Eucharist and with every bead I tick off on the Rosary. I have never looked back.

I still like the Episcopal Church, and many are happy there, but it is only a reflection of a Church that is so much more to me, one that saved my life, this one and hopefully the next one.

Best wishes,
-E