Any Mormons on here read the CES Letter?

[RebeccaJ]

Judeo-Christian teachings appeal to people. Mormons teach things that sound familiar on the surface…and don’t teach the things to new converts that are “out there”.

Mormons have a low retention of new converts. Third world, we’ll see. Mormons used some sketchy methods to get people baptized, in Brazil and other countries. I always suspect they are up to the same thing…tricking people any way they can in order to get them baptized.

The most common trick is, misrepresenting the beliefs of the target’s religion, presenting such misrepresentations as a problem, then providing a “solution” from Mormon teaching. It works for those with a poor understanding of their own religion.

Relevant to the other thread now going about Mormonism, is “eternal marriage”. Mormons will ask, don’t you want to be married in the next life? This one, they’ve been using since Joseph Smith. The premise being, if you believe that marriage ends at death, then that means you won’t have the same loving relationship with your spouse as now.

Yet Catholics for centuries have taught that marriage represents something that will be better in heaven, thus the image of marriage is fulfilled. Yet Catholics continue to fall for a Mormon misrepresentation of Catholic teaching, by Mormons presenting their falsified Catholic teaching as a “problem”.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Or “Adieu” which is French…

 

[Prodigal1984]

That is HILARIOUS.I wonder if in their French translations they use the English word for that word? What would it be? Farewell right?

 

[RuthAnne]

only a small percentage of those who leave The Church of Jesus Christ do so because they become concerned about historical issues

I know. Most Mormons I know, particularly close relatives, who left the church did so riding off into the sunset with a six pack in one hand and a box of condoms in the other. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

My nephew deserted his mission because of the CES letter. Two of my cousins have broken marriages because of historical issues. My husband has had several family members confide in him over their loss of faith because of historical issues. I think it’s a bigger issue than many Mormons are willing to admit.

 

[gazelam]

Except the CES letter is relatively recent, and thousands left before it existed.

As to be expected per the Parable of the Sower. You know, the seeds fall on good ground and bad ground.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Literally “To God”, it’s cognate with Spanish Adios. In France, it’s usually used to when you say it to someone that you don’t plan on seeing again, at least for sometime. I think in Switzerland it’s a lot more common and a lot less serious. Hmm, I’m curious what the French version says, too. By the way, I looked it up, still says adieu, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/jacob/7?lang=fra see Jacob 7:27

 

[gazelam]

Or “Adieu” which is French…

And also English… See Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Adieu

Also, Latter-day Saint blogger Robert Boylan notes here that “adieu” is used as part of the definition of the Hebrew word “to bless” in The Brown-Drivers-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon.

I hope this helps…

 

[gazelam]

Also I would like to know, if Smith was translating from that language that doesn’t exist nor ever did, what is it called, reformed Egyptian? How in that case does he translate Christ from it when that is from Greek? The Book of Mormon states the people are literally going around six centuries before Christ, literally referring to him as Jesus Christ. They knew the word for Messiah in Greek when they never even encountered the Greeks somehow it appears.

A non sequitur if there ever was one…

 

[RebeccaJ]

RebeccaJ:

Except the CES letter is relatively recent, and thousands left before it existed.

As to be expected per the Parable of the Sower. You know, the seeds fall on good ground and bad ground.

Oh we can Bible bash all day if you like. You know, false teachers preaching a false gospel, let them be accursed.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I always find this verse useful when talking to Muslims and Mormons.Galatians 1:8 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
I have a a hard time trusting any religion that claims the Bible was corrupted or they are restoring the Gospel, and I find it especially problematic when an angel is said to be involved.

 

[RebeccaJ]

A mythical translation of a mythical text is neither accurate or inaccurate.

 

[gazelam]

I always find this verse useful when talking to Muslims and Mormons.Galatians 1:8 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
I have a a hard time trusting any religion that claims the Bible was corrupted or they are restoring the Gospel, and I find it especially problematic when an angel is said to be involved.

This is too easy…

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the eternal gospel, to preach unto them that sit upon the earth, and over every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people

 

[Prodigal1984]

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the eternal gospel, to preach unto them that sit upon the earth, and over every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people

Yes but since the apostasy church in your beliefs decided that the Revelation to John is scripture, when it was a disputed book, why would you even accept it? Surely the apostate church didn’t get the canon correct.

 

[RebeccaJ]

adamhovey1988:

I always find this verse useful when talking to Muslims and Mormons.Galatians 1:8 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
I have a a hard time trusting any religion that claims the Bible was corrupted or they are restoring the Gospel, and I find it especially problematic when an angel is said to be involved.

This is too easy…

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the eternal gospel, to preach unto them that sit upon the earth, and over every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people

Well it isn’t talking about Moroni.

 

[GraceJ]

@gazelam

What is this internal feeling associated with the Book of Mormon supposed to be?

I ask because I am genuinely unsure as to what people mean when they talk about that sort of stuff. I do not experience emotions normally (on a daily basis, my “feelings” tend to be intellectual in nature), and generally rely on logic and reason to get by.
I am Catholic, a college freshman, and am reasonably well informed on Catholicism (I have read on catholic.com lots). That said, my exposure to actual religious debate is minimal.

Any answers you can provide are appreciated. My main issues with Mormonism are:
-Lack of archaeological evidence (this is a biggie, as I am going to major in paleontology)
-The time lapse between the “Great Apostasy” and Joseph Smith’s “revelations”
-The entire theory of said “Great Apostasy”.
-Certain teachings of the Mormon church that seem very questionable, such as polygamy, the man-becomes-god teaching, the multitude of gods. None of these appear in the Church Fathers’ writings, and I do not see them implied in the Bible.
-The Mormon church’s practice of secret ceremonies and the like. Is not God’s kingdom a “city on a mountain”, that does not hide and, indeed, cannot be hidden?

Answer any of these sufficiently, I will consider contacting the local Mormon group (if there even is one).

 

[adamhovey1988]

I have yet to find any good answers on any of those. Mormonism just feels so nineteenth-century American to me, that I am baffled why people believe it’s a restoration. I mean no offense to Mormons, but it doesn’t even seem real to me, it doesn’t even seem possible that it could be. The racist undertones, of the Mormon faith, that’s what bothers me more than anything, given my own heritage.

 

[Prodigal1984]

Well that is all it is.
Smith was not the first to make the claim that natives were somehow connected to Israelites. It was actually quite a popular speculation at the time period.
The Book of Mormon is fiction. Fanfare you could say. A nice apocryphal tale. But that is all it is. It should not be read by people weak in faith the same way early Gnostic writings should be avoided.

 

[twf]

Just out of curiosity, is it the Mormon position that matter has always existed, with no beginning or end? It’s eternal as God is?

 

[Prodigal1984]

Which God? Yes they believe the universe has no beginning since they claim our God was a person who had a God and that God was a person who had a God in an endless cycle.
They believe they to can become a God which is blasphemous. I guess their God hangs out at some star called Kolob. This is Mormonism btw, I know it sounds like Scientology.

 

[gazelam]

Hey @GraceJ,
I’ll see what I can do in 3200 characters.

What is this internal feeling associated with the Book of Mormon supposed to be?

I ask because I am genuinely unsure as to what people mean when they talk about that sort of stuff. I do not experience emotions normally (on a daily basis, my “feelings” tend to be intellectual in nature), and generally rely on logic and reason to get by.

The “internal feeling” you’re referring to is the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit influences both our intellect and emotions. I perfect example in the Bible in Luke 24:32:

Then they said to each other, “Were not our hearts burning [within us] while he spoke to us on the way and opened the scriptures to us?”

As the Savior taught of Himself from the scriptures those disciples were both intellectually and emotionally reassured. It seemed right and felt right. Since the Book of Mormon is about Christ one would expect a similar experience when studying it. For more information please watch this video and read this.

I am Catholic, a college freshman, and am reasonably well informed on Catholicism (I have read on catholic.com lots). That said, my exposure to actual religious debate is minimal.

Good luck in college!!

Any answers you can provide are appreciated. My main issues with Mormonism are:
-Lack of archaeological evidence (this is a biggie, as I am going to major in paleontology)

Please read Mormon’s Codex by anthropologist John Sorenson. Here is a talk by Dr. Sorenson on the topic.

-The time lapse between the “Great Apostasy” and Joseph Smith’s “revelations”

No idea.

-The entire theory of said “Great Apostasy”.

In very little space I’ll just say that the 2 Thessalonians 2:2,3 prophecies of a falling away before Christ returns, and the Acts 3:21 speaks of a restoration of all things.

Pope Adrian VI said this in 1522:

“We know well that for many years things deserving abhorrence have gathered round the Holy See. Sacred things have been misused, ordinances transgressed, so that in everything there has been a change for the worse.” (Pastor, History of the Popes , 14:134, as quoted in Durant and Durant, The Age of Faith , 381)

-Certain teachings of the Mormon church that seem very questionable, such as polygamy

Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Esau all had multiple wives.

Continued…