Any Mormons on here read the CES Letter?

[gazelam]

the man-becomes-god teaching,

Romans 8:17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

Read CCC 460 and tell me what you think.

the multitude of gods. None of these appear in the Church Fathers’ writings, and I do not see them implied in the Bible.

Church Father Justin Martyr wrote:

“[T]here is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is called an Angel…. I shall endeavor to persuade you, that He is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things – numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will.” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 56[ANF 1:223])

I hope this helps…

 

[gazelam]

Just out of curiosity, is it the Mormon position that matter has always existed, with no beginning or end? It’s eternal as God is?

Yes. We believe that the elements are eternal, as are you and I. Nowhere does the Bible state that God created the elements out of nothing.

 

[GraceJ]

@gazelam
Personally, relying on an internal feeling sounds like a terrible idea; but then, I literally do not experience emotions much of the time (probably Asperger’s syndrome or something similar) and rely on sheer reason for my beliefs.
Also, Abraham did not have multiple wives, he had a affair with his wife’s maid. And Moses wasn’t married at all. I have read the Bible; I do not consider the peculiarly Mormon scriptures credible without evidence.
There is ample evidence for the accuracy and historicity of the Bible. The Mormon scriptures appeared with Joseph Smith seemingly out of nowhere. Also, I read that the papyrus that Smith supposedly translated into one book (I think it was the Book of Abraham?) turned up in a museum and was translated by professionals, including one Mormon, and was discovered to be a very ordinary pagan text that was also much younger than Smith claimed.

Additionally, the claim that the elements have always existed in completely contrary to reason. There must have been a point where time/space began to exist. Before this point, neither matter nor time could have existed, only God. Since God created space and time, He must exist outside of (independent of) space and time.
Yes, I actually reached this conclusion of God’s existence & nature on my own. In high school. That was when I began to really believe in God.

 

[Prodigal1984]

The “internal feeling” you’re referring to is the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit influences both our intellect and emotions. I perfect example in the Bible in Luke 24:32:

Really? So any writing that makes us feel good is from God? That is ridiculous. Discernment in knowledge is important. Test everything. Retain what is true. Saint Paul says that too. Test it and if it holds up then it can be true. Book of Mormon fails that.
Way to warp Saint Justin Martyrs words.

 

[rIz0]

It’s called confirmation bias. It is genuinely humorous how narrow a path Mormons have to walk to achieve reflective equilibrium.

 

[rIz0]

It’s also quite funny how difficult it is to get Mormons here to pin down their exact beliefs. Here is an interesting topic about the Mormon belief in what exaltation all entails. I enjoy musing through these threads on this particular message board sad though their realities may be.

Becoming Gods? - General Discussions - Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board

 

[Stephen168]

-The time lapse between the “Great Apostasy” and Joseph Smith’s “revelations”

No idea.

The Mormon Church originally taught it was 1260 years based on the Joseph Smith translation of the bible.
Revelation 12:6 King James Version:

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days .

Revelation 12:5 Joseph Smith Translation:

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore years.

The original Mormon teaching on the year of the apostasy was 570 A.D. (1260 + 570 =1830)

 

[gazelam]

-The Mormon church’s practice of secret ceremonies and the like. Is not God’s kingdom a “city on a mountain”, that does not hide and, indeed, cannot be hidden?

I think Ignatius (3rd Bishop of Antioch) said it well:

For might not I write to you things more full of mystery? But I fear to do so, lest I should inflict injury on you who are but babes [in Christ]. Pardon me in this respect, lest, as not being able to receive their weighty import, ye should be strangled by them. For even I, though I am bound [for Christ], and I am able to understand heavenly things, the angelic orders, and the different sorts of angels and hosts, The distinctions between powers and dominions, and the diversity’s between thrones and authorities, The mightiness of the Aeons, and the pre-eminence of the cherubim and seraphim, the sublimity of the spirit, the kingdom of the Lord, and above all, The incomparable majesty of Almighty God… I am acquainted with these things. (Ignatius, Epistle to the Trallians, in Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1:68)

Answer any of these sufficiently, I will consider contacting the local Mormon group (if there even is one).

I’ve answers several of your questions sufficiently. When will you be contacting a local Mormon group?

Also, Abraham did not have multiple wives, he had a affair with his wife’s maid.

Au Contraire.
Genesis 16: 3 Thus, after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, his wife Sarai took her maid, Hagar the Egyptian, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

And Moses wasn’t married at all.

Exodus 18:2 So his father-in-law Jethro took along Zipporah, Moses’ wife
Numbers 12:1 Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses on the pretext of the Cushite woman he had married; for he had in fact married a Cushite woman.

 

[GraceJ]

And yet, the lack of archaeological evidence is highly unconvincing. Also, I saw on another thread some interesting things about Joseph Smith and his criminal history. Independent research shows that (a) Smith did not perform any miracles, and (b) he was arrested many times for such upstanding crimes as, of all things, fraudulent treasure-seeking. How could the LDS possibly compare to the faith of Mother Teresa and John Paul II? The miracles at Lourdes alone are convincing.
Sorry.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I have Aspergers, so I am not sure about that.

 

[Horton]

You need to be cautious of some of gazelam’s responses. Most come from LDS sourced writings which tend to take the comments out of context to attempt to prove the LDS point of view.

This is a quote from an LDS sourced document called “Offenders for a Word” and LDS anti Christian site attempting to refute claims made against Mormonism. The writer was attempting to defend the LDS secret ceremonies and practices by claiming the Catholics had secret rites called Mass, attempting to claim the word mass means something very different than what it actually means.

The very word from which “mass” may be derived, missa (in the phrase missa est ), appears to have been the point in the Christian worship service when those who were not yet members in full standing were “invited … to leave the church building. Then the doors were closed, and the ushers assumed their places in order to inquire of anyone who still desired to enter if he was baptized.” The practice of the arcani discipline !—including exclusion from participating in the Eucharist, from the baptismal service, and from other rites as well—persisted through several centuries, probably from the end of the second century until the end of the fourth or the beginning of the fifth century. According to Mulder, the early Church may have had certain secret practices that were not to be made known under any circumstances, whose secrecy were sometimes maintained by an oath.

 

[Stephen168]

-The Mormon church’s practice of secret ceremonies and the like. Is not God’s kingdom a “city on a mountain”, that does not hide and, indeed, cannot be hidden?

I think Ignatius (3rd Bishop of Antioch) said it well:

I’ve answers several of your questions sufficiently. When will you be contacting a local Mormon group?

A sufficient answer would included your explanation on what your quote from Ignatius of Antioch has to do with secret ceremonies.

 

[Stephen168]

I think Ignatius (3rd Bishop of Antioch) said it well:

I prefer this quote:
They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again.

The Early Church Fathers were Catholic, not Mormon.

 

[Prodigal1984]

One of the most intriguing things about the Book of Mormon is how it condemns secret combinations and knowledge etc, multiple times. The Gadianton robbers and later even the Nephites and Lamanites; and the Jaredites took part in it. It always leads to their destruction and falling away. The entire Book of Mormon itself is a show about apostasy actually. It is repetitive. Probably one of the reasons the apostasy narrative is so easy for them to spout out.
Here is the kicker though. All of this showing how bad secret combinations and knowledge is, yet Joseph Smith was a Freemason.

 

[Prodigal1984]

I like this one from Ether
8 Now the daughter of Jared being exceedingly expert, and seeing the sorrows of her father, thought to devise a plan whereby she could redeem the kingdom unto her father. 9 Now the daughter of Jared was exceedingly fair. And it came to pass that she did talk with her father, and said unto him: Whereby hath my father so much sorrow? Hath he not read the record which our fathers brought across the great deep? Behold, is there not an account concerning them of old, that they by their secret plans did obtain kingdoms and great glory? 10 And now, therefore, let my father send for Akish, the son of Kimnor; and behold, I am fair, and I will dance before him, and I will please him, that he will desire me to wife; wherefore if he shall desire of thee that ye shall give unto him me to wife, then shall ye say: I will give her if ye will bring unto me the head of my father, the king. 11 And now Omer was a friend to Akish; wherefore, when Jared had sent for Akish, the daughter of Jared danced before him that she pleased him, insomuch that he desired her to wife. And it came to pass that he said unto Jared: Give her unto me to wife. 12 And Jared said unto him: I will give her unto you, if ye will bring unto me the head of my father, the king.

Talk about stealing the John the Baptist beheading narrative with no shame whatsoever. This is all the Book of Mormon does. It steals stories from the Bible and other sources and just records it. Sometimes it quotes from the Bible before the Bible author even wrote the book.

 

[GiftofMercy]

For those of us who are lesser informed than you, could you please provide a synopsis of this debate, or the two positions and perhaps a reason or two justifying each side? Perhaps a reference to help us do some further research?

Hi Tafan i was suspended for a couple of weeks. I will do this when I have a little time. I have a few assessments due first