Any non-Latin Rite Catholics here?

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Hey,

Seveal thoghts from an Eastener that has found her way in here.

In not having pews, you can prostrate before God or you bow deeply from the waist thereby prostrating your heart before God. And if you have pews you do it too!

Interesting the number of Ruthenians in Melkite parrishes here…add one more to that list.

Pani Rose 👍
 
Hi, Dolly!

You missed your cue, my friend! The correct response to my “pew” comment would have been, “Of course we have pews… if we didn’t, what would we hook our kneelers on to?”

😃 😃 😃 😃 😃

Seriously, Dolly, thank you for taking my Left-Coast Byzantine comment in the humorous vein I intended it to be… after I posted, I feared I may have offended you.

A few clarifications for the benefit of my Latin brothers and sisters…

Dolly’s “diocese,” the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Van Nuys, is the youngest of our Church’s eparchies, joining the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, the Eparchy of Passaic (New Jersey) and the Eparchy of Parma (Ohio). It’s probably the most active, too, with regard to growth… the Byzantine Catholic Church is truly blessed to have them out there evangelizing that Left-Coast that I refer to!

Dolly’s reference to the “latinized east” refers to the fact that us “older” eparchies went through a serious phase of trying to “be more Latin” in order to fit in in America - this lasted well into the 70s or so. During this phase, many of our parishes abandoned traditions that had been part and parcel of our worship ceremonies since the “old country.” In recent years, our Byzantine Churches have been slowly re-adopting their lost traditions, with the full support and encourgement of our Holy Father, John Paul II. Dolly’s eparchy, being new, has been able to start “fresh” with embracing our old traditions, since they weren’t around during the old “days of Latinization.”

Pews? That’s one of our old traditions (the absence of, I mean). Although pews are still overwhelmingly predominant in most of our Churches, they are starting to disappear, little by little. As Pani Rose pointed out, our worship ceremony involves numerous deep bows and, in some cases, full prostrations - pews just get in the way! BTW - the pews-or-no-pews issue has shown itself to be a “hot button topic” within our own camp of Eastern Catholics! Lots of strong opinions on both sides!

Kneelers, for the most part, have been gone for quite some time - the appropriate posture for reverent prayer in the East is standing.

Married priesthood - the East has always allowed for a married priesthood. It’s only when our ancestors first arrived in America (late 1800s) that this posed a problem. The fear was that a married Eastern Catholic priesthood would somehow “scandalize” the celebate Roman Catholic priesthood. Again, in order to “fit in,” we were forced to abandon our married priesthood here in America. Taking a cue from our Holy Father’s directive to restore our old traditions, I believe we’ll soon see a return to the practice. Speaking for the Eparchy of Parma, I know that there are currently two seminarians studying for the priesthood, one of which is a married man.
a pilgrim
 
Just wanted to put this link on line for those who may want to know about your Eparchy here in Ohio (Parma),
parma.org/

Go with God!
Edwin
 
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Rocky8311:
I’m curious if you Priesthood candidates are married. Just curious. I’m hearing both that married Byzantines cannot be ordained and that they now can, but I don’t know what’s true. Peace in Christ-
Rocky,

To elaborate a bit more on the topic of married priests. During the late 19th and early 20th century, the unwillingness of the US Latin hierarchy (principally Irish and German at the time) to accept the credentials of and grant faculties to our married priests (and, in one notorious instance, a widower priest) contributed significantly to schisms within the Eastern Catholic emigre population. Thousands were lost to the counterpart Orthodox Churches and one Orthodox Church actually came into being over this issue (the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese of Johnstown, commonly known today as ACROD - the US Orthodox counterpart to the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church).

In 1929, the decree Cum Data Fuerit was imposed on the Ruthenians. It acknowledged that, until such time as there were sufficient American educated and ordained priests to serve the needs of the Rite (this was before we were deemed to be “Churches”), clergy would have to be drawn from the Rite’s territories of origin (Galicia, Hungary, and Yugoslavia), but that only celibate priests could be transferred to the US with the intent of having them remain here. Within 5 years, the provisions of the decree were extended to all of the other Eastern Catholic Rites in the US and Canada.

Ultimately, it came to be understood that the stance of the Eastern Congregation was that Eastern Catholics could not have married clergy in the diaspora (typically, meaning any place which was outside the historical geographic boundaries under the jurisdiction of a particular Rite’s primary hierarch). Adherence was essentially absolute until the early 1970s when Melkite Archbishop Joseph Tawil, of blessed memory, transferred some married candidates for the priesthood to Melkite jurisdictions in the Middle East, where they were ordained before being “loaned” back to the US Eparchy. His Beatitude Maximos V, of blessed memory, Patriarch of Antioch and All the East, of Alexandria and of Jerusalem of the Melkites ordained 2 married priests in Canada in the late 70s - ordinations that Rome declared to be illicit. The Melkites returned to the approach of transfers and “loans”, a fiction that Rome was apparently willing to ignore, as well as importing several married priests from the “old country”.

Finally, in the 1990s, emboldened by the fact that the new Eastern Code seemingly ignores the issue and is deemed by most to supersede the earlier decree, Bishop Basil Filevich, now Emeritus Eparch of Saskatoon of the Ukrainians (Canada), and Bishop John Elya, Eparch of Newton of the Melkites (US), have ordained married priests in their respective jurisdictions without adverse comment by Rome. However, the issue remains - within the past few months, Latin bishops in Europe successfully pressured Rome to have Ukrainian bishops recall married clergy whom they had assigned to Western European countries to serve their scattered faithful.

Many years,

Neil
 
I’d like to invite those of you who aren’t already members of the Byzantine Forum to consider registering and posting there.

It’s at:

byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi

The name is a bit misleading. Although Ruthenian and Ukrainian Catholics predominate, we have members from all but a few of the 22 Eastern Catholic Churches, not just the 14 that use the Byzantine Rite. Additionally, there are members from a significant number of the Orthodox Churches, as well as Latin Catholics (spanning the spectrum from traditional to liberal) and High-Church Protestants who have an apprecaition for or curiousity about the East. Our posters represent probably most US states, Canada, Mexico, and Brazil in the Americas, as well as the Britain, Scotland, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Norway, Indonesia, Philippines, Australia, Hungary, and Poland, and probably a few places that have eluded me at the moment, It is generally a place where folks can discuss, learn, educate, and inspire one another, sometimes agreeing, other times disagreeing, but always in respect.

Many years,

Neil
 
Hmmmm. So this may be a dumb question, but you guys have been awfully nice in answering most of my dumb questions so far… what language is used in the celebration of Mass? Sometimes you guys greet each other in what appears to me to be a different language, so I’m wondering if it’s because a different language is used in the celebration of Mass…
 
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Maggie:
Hmmmm. So this may be a dumb question, but you guys have been awfully nice in answering most of my dumb questions so far… what language is used in the celebration of Mass? Sometimes you guys greet each other in what appears to me to be a different language, so I’m wondering if it’s because a different language is used in the celebration of Mass…
Hi, Maggie!

Good questions!

The Eastern Churches have always held to the idea that the Divine Liturgy should be celebrated in the vernacular of the people. Whereas the Roman Catholics used Latin as the universal, worldwide language of the Mass well into the 60s and even 70s, the Eastern Churches would adopt their Divine Liturgy to the language of the people, wherever they happened to be.

Speaking for the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church in America, The language of the Divine Liturgy had been, up until this same time period (60s/70s) a Slavic dialect known as Church Slavonic, even in America! Now, at first glance, this may appear to be a contradiction of the Eastern Catholic practice of using the vernacular of the people… it is not. Here’s why…

The Ruthenians who settled in America during the first half of the 20th century were, for the most part, first generation immigrants. They quite naturally settled into their own neighborhoods an built their own churches there, populated, in turn, by their own Slavic-speaking people. Many if not most of these folks never enjoyed the benefit of an American education - they came here strictly to work and survive. For this reason, most never even learned the English language, so for them, Church Slavoic was the vernacular!.. even in America!

The children of this first-wave of immigrants did, however, attend American schools and learn the English language. They would, naturally, attend these same churches as their immigrant ancestors, but they brought with them the benefit of knowledge of the English language. As these “kids” started replacing the older folks who were dying away, the Church recognized the need to “adjust” the language of the Divine Liturgy to accommodate their language, hence English became, and remains today, the language of the Byzantine Catholic Church in America.

There was, understandably, a period of “language overlap” where it was necessary to accommodate the language needs of both groups. This period of overlap happens to be the era of our Church in America that many of today’s Byzantines, myself included, grew up in. It was not at all uncommon for a Byzantine Catholic Church to have one Sunday Liturgy in English and a second one in Slavonic. As an altar boy and a cantor, I couldn’t help being exposed to both versions - the same holds for most of my chronological peers!

The greetings we occasionally post to each other are a carryover from these “days of overlap.” The most common greeting is “Slava Isusu Christu!” which means “Glory be to Jesus Christ!” The response to this greeting is “Slava Na V’iki!” which means “Glory be forever!” Another greeting that I’ve posted is “Mnohaja i blahaja l’ita!” which is a blessing upon someone wishing them “Many and blessed years!” This one is a one-way greeting - no response necessary!🙂

My guess is that as us “oldsters” die off (I’m 53), so will our Slavonic greetings, replaced exclusively by the English versions, which we’re already seeing at the ends of many posts here.

Hope this helps, Maggie!

a pilgrim
 
Maggie,

If I may be so bold… I’ve noticed that you usually bring up some excellent questions with regard to the Eastern Catholic Churches. I’d like to offer you two internet resources that I believe you may enjoy. The first is …

www.byzcath.org

If you go th the very bottom of the introductory page, you’ll see a link to some excellent videos about the Church. The first video listed after clicking on this link is called Introduction to the Eastern Catholic Churches. It’s about 12-minutes long, and I truly believe you’ll enjoy it!

The narrator of the video mentioned above is Fr. Thomas Loya, pastor of Annunciation of the Mother of God Byzantine Catholic Church in Homer Glen, Illinois, very near Chicago. The very excellent parish website for Fr. Loya’s Church is at…

www.byzantinecatholic.com

As you look at the photos of this beautiful Byzantine Catholic Church, it may surprise you to know that Fr. Loya is also an iconographer and that he hand-wrote (one does not paint an icon; one writes an icon!) virtually all of the icons that adorn just about every square inch of interior surface… in many cases working on his back from a scaffold, not unlike Michelangelo!

Hope you enjoy these sites, Maggie!

a pilgrim
 
Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

I am also Byzantine, originally Latin rite.

I attend the parish Pilgrim referred to below in Illinois.

Thanks for the plug! 😃

Michael, that sinner
 
Neat!!! It was a cool video and the pictures are awesome. I’ve never been in an Eastern Catholic Church, but I think we actually have a few around so I’ll have to check them out so I know how it is for everybody… I liked the formality of it all…

I got the pews thing, and I got the kneelers… but where do you put the hymnals??? 😃 This also explains why they look so much smaller… (at least around here.) I guess if everybody is standing, you don’t need nearly as much room…
 
For me, the Maronite Rite is perfect. I will be happy to answer any questions I can. What would you like to know?

God bless.
 
Well, how about a bi-ritual deacon? I serve both a Latin and a Melkite parish. Does that count?

Deacon Ed
 
Maggie here are some other greetings that Byzantines use. From Christmas to Epiphany we use-Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

Easter Sunday to Ancension-Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!

When we have festive anointing the preist will anoint the forehead with oil and say God is among us and the response is He is and always will be.

If you do go to a Divine Liturgy(Mass), I would seek out an English version so you could follow along. Just pick up the prayer book and follow along. There are only a couple response that we use. When it comes to the hymns it’s just that we know them by heart. The interchangeable parts like the tropars, kondaks, theotokions, and prokimenon is handle by the cantor. Just to clear one thing up, if I would see you on the street I would greet you with Glory to Jesus Christ! Your response would be Glory forever! I hope this helps.

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!
 
I too am aByzantine Catholic, but raised Roman Catholic (some of my relatives were Byzantine Catholic). The Archbishop of the Archeparchy of Philadelphia released all the seminarians last year and is renovating the Seminary in Washington DC to accomodate married men and their families. So far, no takers.

Yes, we use another language. Its called “Old Slavonic or Church Slavonic”. So you see I can attend Divine Liturgy all over the world and understand it. Isn’t that great? Too bad you don’t have the same thing in the Roman Church.
 
Slava Isusu Christu!

I am Greek Catholic, of the Metropolia of Pittsburgh (originally from the far western end of the Eparchy of Parma, Missouri).

In Christ,
Adam
 
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akemner:
Slava Isusu Christu!

I am Greek Catholic, of the Metropolia of Pittsburgh (originally from the far western end of the Eparchy of Parma, Missouri).

In Christ,
Adam
Parma is in Ohio.

Edwin
 
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Maggie:
Hmmmm. So this may be a dumb question, but you guys have been awfully nice in answering most of my dumb questions so far… what language is used in the celebration of Mass? Sometimes you guys greet each other in what appears to me to be a different language, so I’m wondering if it’s because a different language is used in the celebration of Mass…
Maggie,

As Pilgrim imdicated, the heritage of the Eastern Churches is and always has been to use the vernacular in its celebration of the Divine Liturgy. For that reason, you will most commonly find English used in our parishes in America, regardless of the sui iuris Church to which the parish belongs.

There are some exceptions, if a parish has a significant recently immigrated population, you may find 2 Divine Liturgies being served, one in English and the other in the language of the “old country”, or a Divine Liturgy that employs both languages.

Of the 14 Byzantine Churches sui iuris, 6 are formally represented in the US (by which I mean they have formally distinguishable parishes and 5 of them have their own canonical jurisdiction and hierarch; another 3 or 4 have parishes that were, at least in origin, formed to serve a particular Church’s people, but within jurisdictions not of their own Church sui iuris). Of the 6, English is the predominant liturgical language, except possibly among the Ukrainians - who still use Old Church Slavonic in many parishes. The Italo-Graeco-Albanians, Melkites, Romanians, Russians, and Ruthenians primarily use English. As to what are/were our historical liturgical languages, the names pretty much say it: exceptions - Melkites used Arabic and Greek, the Ruthenians used Church Slavonic.

The Syriacs, Chaldeans, Syro-Malankara, Syro-Malabar, Copts, and Ethiopians, who are primarily immigrant Churches still, tend to use their historical liturgical tongues, but that is changing among some of those parishes already. Maronites use English principally, although many of the prayers said by the priest are still recited in Aramaic, their historical liturgical tongue.

As to Mike C’s comment:
Yes, we use another language. Its called “Old Slavonic or Church Slavonic”. So you see I can attend Divine Liturgy all over the world and understand it. Isn’t that great? Too bad you don’t have the same thing in the Roman Church.
Mike is a Ukrainian and his remark reflects a line of thought among those of that Church, which is fostered I believe by the fact that they alone, among Byzantines, are still presently experiencing a continuing heavy flow of immigrants. So, as yet, they don’t see the need to avoid a ghetto mentality or see their Church fade into history. Ultimately, they will. To understand what I mean, read:

The Courage To Be Ourselves

Many years,

Neil
 
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Edwin1961:
Parma is in Ohio.

Edwin
Glory to Jesus Christ!

True Edwin,
What I think what Adam means is that he was from Missouri originally. As we know, that is in the Epachy of Parma, at it’s western reaches.

In Christ Always,
Michael
 
Sorry about that. I know that Parma is in Ohio. And i was from Missouri, from the parish that is farthest west in the Eparchy (the Eparchy line is actually near or on the Kansas-Colorado border). Sorry for the foible 🙂

Spasi Christos,
Adam
 
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