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IvanKaramozov
Guest
Right, I mean as opposed to atheism
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Valke2
Guest
Joe Nickell notes that the Shroud cloth is incompatible with New Testament accounts of Jesus’ burial. He claims that: “John’s gospel (19:38-42, 20:5-7) specifically states that the body was ‘wound’ with ‘linen clothes’ and a large quantity of burial spices (myrrh and aloes). Still another cloth (called ‘the napkin’) covered his face and head. In contrast, the Shroud of Turin represents a single, draped cloth (laid under and then over the ‘body’) without any trace of the burial spices.”
po18guy
Well-known member
Well, I was going to call it contempt, but I was completely wrong. Words on a page, lacking the tonal inflection of the spoken word, can be misinterpreted by the reader (me). Apologies. I would guess that you readily accept the first four of G-d’s covenants with man?
po18guy
Well-known member
From Wakipedia: “Joe Nickell was born December 1, 1944. He is a former stage magician and is a prominent skeptical investigator of the paranormal…”
Well, noted dime store philosopher po18guy says that Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus had their own way of preparing a body for burial-especially since both thought Christ to be more than just another body. Additionally, the natural law dictates that the opinion of whomever has more posts on CAF will prevail. I know that Joe investigates a whole lot of stuff, but he’s a magician/skeptic. Neither the vocation, nor the avocation is known for an abundance of faith.
In spite of Apollo 13 and Challenger, I go with NASA on this one.
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mahoneyt
Guest
Is there any proof what so ever that you are true?
Who says Philosophy is the only way of “knowing”? Why do I have to work within a Philisophical system started by a bunch of old white men 2,300 years ago? What kind of arguement do you want? A Kant style one, a little Hobbs maybe, should I work in the frame of Aristotle, Plato, or Cicero.
Why can’t people know God is there because they’re no longer addicted to alcohol, saw thier family no longer fear them, and watched a marriage heal? Then they know its true. Do you think a logical arguement is somehow more powerful then that? Why is a logical arguement a better form of “knowing”? For thousands of years people “knew” alot of things. Only after the Enlightenment was “knowing” in the terms you speak of.
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jimmy85
Guest
The shroud of Turin did agrees with the burial customs that the ancient jews had.
Here there is a really nice conference about it, and it explains everything about the shroud of turin.
Fr. Dan Deutsch - The Shroud of Turin
It is really an amazing conference.
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jimmy85
Guest
The shroud of Turin does have plenty of traces of the burial customs and rituals that the ancient jews had.
Here there is a really nice conference about it, and it explains everything about the shroud of turin.
Fr. Dan Deutsch - The Shroud of Turin
It is really an amazing conference.
Here there is a really nice conference about it, and it explains everything about the shroud of turin.
Fr. Dan Deutsch - The Shroud of Turin
It is really an amazing conference.
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Bishopite
Guest
Do you mean you are looking for evidence of the existence of God from Catholic sources that disprove atheism?
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IvanKaramozov
Guest
I mean like proof that bolsters Roman Catholicism over atheism
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Bishopite
Guest
Ah, I see. Well, to bolster Catholicism means bolstering Christianity over atheism being Catholicism IS true Christianity.
In order to prove Catholicism over atheism one would need to start from the point where the person doubts. You are Catholic, yet you seem to be questioning its validity and looking into atheism? Which would be quite a step.
I’m not sure where you are on the scale (for a lack of a better word) of Catholic Christianity and atheism.
If a person doubts the existence of God then they of course need to start from the begining and juxtapose the proof of God’s existence with the false idea of atheism and there are many arguments that rationally disprove atheism and bolster Catholicism but there is of course a large stepping scale in between.
The steps would look something like this, (although there are certainly NOT exhaustive).
There is a God who is divine.
This God has been revealed through religion.
Christianity is the true religion over all others because it reveals Jesus Christ who is God.
Catholicism is the fullness of divinely revealed Christian truth established by Jesus Christ, ergo the Catholic Church authoritatively speaks for Jesus, here on Earth.
As I said prior, there are many steps inbetween, however the most convincing proof from the evidence that Catholicism is true over atheism is the moral argument of which there are none that equal Catholic moral theology.
This begs the question, where did morals come from?
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ateista
Guest
Wow! The proof of God’s existence? Atheism was disproved? So “faith” is not needed any more? You actually “know” that God exists? And you can rationally demonstrate that without appeal to some “divine revelation” or faith? That will be the day…
House of cards. All I have to do is point out that your proposed foundation is merely an unsupported conjecture, and your house of cards collapses.
And your “most convincing proof” is simply your personal belief, which is to be respected, but is given no further credence. I, for one, reject the Catholic morality.
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Pat_the_Cat
Guest
Yes! if you are looking for evidence that super-natural events are taking place in the Catholic Church, then look to the Saints and Eucharistic miracles.
Mysteries, Marvels and Miracles this awesome book is jam-packed with testimony of reliable witnesses who have seen the miracles performed through the saints.
Incorrupt Saints(Saints who have died but their bodies did not decay.)
Miracles of the Eucharist (approved and confirmed by eyewitnesses) scroll down the page and see the miracles by country.
Hope this helps the doubts.
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jimmy85
Guest
I dont think that rational facts nor empirical proffs could prove the existens of God for some people. Becuase by my experiecne talking with soem atheists, they wont be able to accept catholicism as truth becuase they dont have a very well understanding of the religion, nor of God. Some even compare catholicism with protestan christians, or sometimes they could be against church teachings.
However God is trascendetal, we must see that as a fact and realizie that everything makes sense when we really get to know the real God and if we avoid considering our own perspectives and point of view about God.
If we dont know the real God, it dosent matter how many empirical or rational proffs we have about his existens, we wotn be able to accept such a concept because it would seems nonsense because we are use to think that this hypotetical God is the way we picture it, in our own errounius way.
Actually I think few people are able to understand how God really is.
Most of us have a distorted view of God and therefore all the empirical and rational proffs we find would be meanigless, simply because we cant reject our own erronous concept that we already have about God,
and it is a fact that in most of the cases our own concept of God have an erronius perspective.
I really think that the best way to know,God more than in reading the bible, could be by reading the books of the saints and the spiritual dialogues that they had with God.
The diary of St Faustina is a good book, but most of the books of the saints could help as well.
I believe the bible has a really tough language to understand for the readers nowadays.
This is a part of the Diary of St Fastuna and her Dialoges:
I believe that gives a more actual persceptive of God in this times, rather than to try to find answers about God in the OT. Just simply because the OT was for another times and it could sound ambigious and weird for the reader nowadays.
IT d be good also to have an insight in the life of the saints in order to realizie how miystical, spiritual and full of miracles were their own lifes.
A part of the Diary of St Faustina about the Divine Mercy
However God is trascendetal, we must see that as a fact and realizie that everything makes sense when we really get to know the real God and if we avoid considering our own perspectives and point of view about God.
If we dont know the real God, it dosent matter how many empirical or rational proffs we have about his existens, we wotn be able to accept such a concept because it would seems nonsense because we are use to think that this hypotetical God is the way we picture it, in our own errounius way.
Actually I think few people are able to understand how God really is.
Most of us have a distorted view of God and therefore all the empirical and rational proffs we find would be meanigless, simply because we cant reject our own erronous concept that we already have about God,
and it is a fact that in most of the cases our own concept of God have an erronius perspective.
I really think that the best way to know,God more than in reading the bible, could be by reading the books of the saints and the spiritual dialogues that they had with God.
The diary of St Faustina is a good book, but most of the books of the saints could help as well.
I believe the bible has a really tough language to understand for the readers nowadays.
This is a part of the Diary of St Fastuna and her Dialoges:
I believe that gives a more actual persceptive of God in this times, rather than to try to find answers about God in the OT. Just simply because the OT was for another times and it could sound ambigious and weird for the reader nowadays.
IT d be good also to have an insight in the life of the saints in order to realizie how miystical, spiritual and full of miracles were their own lifes.
A part of the Diary of St Faustina about the Divine Mercy
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Al_Masetti
Guest
A friend of mine, a very good friend, actually witnessed an apparition of the Blessed Mother. [very long story; very complicated].
But he still, stubbornly, won’t “subscribe to” the Roman Catholic Church.
[He’s stubborn about a lot of things.]
Another person, a life-long friend of my friend, also witnessed that same apparation of the Blessed Mother and was and remained to the day of his death a devout Roman Catholic … daily Communicant, made many pilgrimages to Fatima and Lourdes, etc.
Go figure.
I just keep reminding myself of the parable of the seed that fell on the stony ground, among thistles, and finally on fertile soil.
Let us pray that the Holy Spirit will convert the “disbelievers”. The Holy Spirit is God, just as the Father and Jesus are God … full of Infinity and of the Creativity and Inventiveness that goes with Infinity. The Holy Spirit can and does provide the exactly right inspiration so each of us can believe and grow and prosper in our belief. Of course, we each have free will … so each of us has the capacity to turn away from the Holy Spirit.
So, let us also pray for people to be open to the Holy Spirit and accept what God is doing for us.
But he still, stubbornly, won’t “subscribe to” the Roman Catholic Church.
[He’s stubborn about a lot of things.]
Another person, a life-long friend of my friend, also witnessed that same apparation of the Blessed Mother and was and remained to the day of his death a devout Roman Catholic … daily Communicant, made many pilgrimages to Fatima and Lourdes, etc.
Go figure.
I just keep reminding myself of the parable of the seed that fell on the stony ground, among thistles, and finally on fertile soil.
Let us pray that the Holy Spirit will convert the “disbelievers”. The Holy Spirit is God, just as the Father and Jesus are God … full of Infinity and of the Creativity and Inventiveness that goes with Infinity. The Holy Spirit can and does provide the exactly right inspiration so each of us can believe and grow and prosper in our belief. Of course, we each have free will … so each of us has the capacity to turn away from the Holy Spirit.
So, let us also pray for people to be open to the Holy Spirit and accept what God is doing for us.
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jimmy85
Guest
I agree but I beleive protestans have made atheists to hate the verbs “to convert” and “to believe”. but personately I think they arent such a bad words.
I believe God want people to have some sort of close and familiar relationship with him, because, he is the creator and he interncede with mankind and he is full of love for them. and the best way that God can have a close relationshp and intercede with mankind, is if mankind believes in him.
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jimmy85
Guest
you dont have to reject God, catholicism and everything just because you disagree with the catholic morality.
you could be a non practican catholic anyway, and still believe.
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ateista
Guest
You are absolutely right. That is not the reason I do not believe. I simply found it interesting that the “most convincing proof” was the alleged superiority of the Catholic “morality”.
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jimmy85
Guest
oh ok
po18guy
Well-known member
Even atheists pray there is no God. But, to whom? I cannot have no faith, since actively believing a negative requires way too much energy. Are you sure that you don’t believe in God while you sleep, having insufficient energy to actively disbeleive?
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jimmy85
Guest
So could you mention the reason why you dont believe? just to know.
Perhaps you have a wrong understanding of what means to believe in something, or to have a religion.
Because frankly if I lacked a religion it wouldnt be a big deal for me to beleive in something, perhaps you just need to learn more about catholicism in order to truly understand what is the religion all about, in order to judge it in a better way.
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