Any Proof Whatsoever?

[jimmy85]

You are absolutely right. That is not the reason I do not believe. I simply found it interesting that the “most convincing proof” was the alleged superiority of the Catholic “morality”.

I tell you by my own experience, that if you really learn all about the miracles, study the teachings and all about catholicism you wont be able to be skeptic once again.

 

[ateista]

Even atheists pray there is no God. But, to whom? I cannot have no faith, since actively believing a negative requires way too much energy. Are you sure that you don’t believe in God while you sleep, having insufficient energy to actively disbeleive?

I never pray. Since I don’t believe that there is someone to pray to… it would be futile, don’t you think?

As a matter of fact, I could never understand why Christians engage in supplicative prayers. I can understand the meditative prayers. But the supplicative ones? First, you believe that God already knows all your thoughts and desires, much better than you do. Second, you believe that God is immutable, so your prayer will never be answered if it is against God’s wishes. So why the exercise?

I wonder if you are serious about “believing in God while asleep”.

 

[po18guy]

I never pray. Since I don’t believe that there is someone to pray to… it would be futile, don’t you think?

Would it hurt to try, anyway? If you pray to God that He doesn’t exist, He just might surprise you.

As a matter of fact, I could never understand why Christians engage in supplicative prayers. I can understand the meditative prayers. But the supplicative ones? First, you believe that God already knows all your thoughts and desires, much better than you do. Second, you believe that God is immutable, so your prayer will never be answered if it is against God’s wishes. So why the exercise?

God answers every prayer. We must accept that the answer is sometimes “No”. We cannot know His will, only pray that it be done. We are in an imperfect world, right? We seek the perfection that Christ promised, and we have historical record that he carried out exactly what He promised. Video? Nope. Just the testimony of those who shed their blood for the faith, as He shed it for us. Also, secular Jewish and Roman authorities documented the existence of Christ. Pliny the Younger in Rome, for example.

I wonder if you are serious about “believing in God while asleep”.

Well, it is a point to ponder, since you must devote energy to actively not believe. You are doing it right now! So, when you are completely at rest, do your energy-requiring doubts subside? I mean, I don’t want to give you nightmares, but…

From your knowledge, and your will to engage and inquire, you are very close to experiencing a change of heart. Would you agree, if it was a part of a grand plan and was actually good for your eternal life?

 

[ateista]

So could you mention the reason why you dont believe? just to know.
Perhaps you have a wrong understanding of what means to believe in something, or to have a religion.

Because frankly if I lacked a religion it wouldnt be a big deal for me to beleive in something, perhaps you just need to learn more about catholicism in order to truly understand what is the religion all about, in order to judge it in a better way.

I believe in lots of things. (To quote the old T-shirt: “Everyone must believe in something, so I believe I will have another beer”.) I just don’t believe in the concept of “supernatural”, no matter what form it is supposed to have.

The reason is simple. Contrary to usual beliefs I only had positive experiences with religion. I only knew very nice people in the church (it was not Catholic, but that hardly matters, I believe that the overwhelming majority of priests, preachers, rabbis, etc… are very nice people.).

I accepted, unquestioning what I was told, just like every other child does. For a long time I went to church, to Bible studies, and never thought twice about them. True, I found the ceremony of “witnessing” quite distasteful, but I did not have to participate in it.

Later, I thought that the materialistic and “spiritual” approach have about equal merit, neither can be proven or disproven. That was what is usually (and incorrectly) called agnosticism.

Finally, when I started to think about it seriously, I realized that the concept of a “spirit”, detached from “matter” is an unnecessary hypothesis, to me it was nonsensical. Also, when I saw all the whitewashing of God when it came to the “problem of evil”, all the so-called “arguements”, I became really disillusioned with all forms of religion.

So I became an atheist. That’s all folks.

I tell you by my own experience, that if you really learn all about the miracles, study the teachings and all about catholicism you wont be able to be skeptic once again.

That is very unlikely. To declare that an event is miraculous is to assert that it cannot have a natrual explanation. Not just now - forever. To assert that simply needs omniscience - to know all the possible developments of all the sciences as long as the human race exists. And that is a serious assertion.

At best one can say: this is event is unexplained due to our current level of knowledge. That is an honest opinion. But to say that it can never be explained…

 

[ateista]

Would it hurt to try, anyway? If you pray to God that He doesn’t exist, He just might surprise you.

You know, my friend, I did. As a child I did, many times. As honestly as only a child can do. There were two kinds: one that I had to do every night, just words, without any meaning to me. The other ones came from my heart. Those were never answered with a “yes”.

God answers every prayer. We must accept that the answer is sometimes “No”.

In the satirical newspaper “the Onion”, there was an article about a small, crippled kid, who prayed to God that his health be restored, so he could get out of his wheelchair. God answered: “NO”. Now this was a very satiricial article, not to be taken seriously.

But it refleced real life. How many little children are hungry, crippled, starving, disease ridden, tortured, hacked to little pieces by a machete? Many. God listenes to their little prayers, and says: “NO”.

We cannot know His will, only pray that it be done.

Why pray for that? It will be done.

We are in an imperfect world, right? We seek the perfection that Christ promised, and we have historical record that he carried out exactly what He promised. Video? Nope. Just the testimony of those who shed their blood for the faith, as He shed it for us. Also, secular Jewish and Roman authorities documented the existence of Christ. Pliny the Younger in Rome, for example.

Testimonial evidence can go only so far. No testimonial evidence can establish the “miracles” of walking on water, etc… Probably there was a historical person called Jesus (after all it is a common name), who was a charismatic person, with some minor following. There is not one historical record attesting to all the things he supposed to have accomplished. There is the Bible, written many years after his death, that is all.

Well, it is a point to ponder, since you must devote energy to actively not believe. You are doing it right now! So, when you are completely at rest, do your energy-requiring doubts subside? I mean, I don’t want to give you nightmares, but…

From your knowledge, and your will to engage and inquire, you are very close to experiencing a change of heart. Would you agree, if it was a part of a grand plan and was actually good for your eternal life?

I would love to live a long time. I don’t know about “eternal” - it would be very boring. People don’t want “eternal” life, they just don’t want to die. Very different!

 

[jimmy85]

I believe in lots of things. (To quote the old T-shirt: “Everyone must believe in something, so I believe I will have another beer”.) I just don’t believe in the concept of “supernatural”, no matter what form it is supposed to have.

The reason is simple. Contrary to usual beliefs I only had positive experiences with religion. I only knew very nice people in the church (it was not Catholic, but that hardly matters, I believe that the overwhelming majority of priests, preachers, rabbis, etc… are very nice people.).

I accepted, unquestioning what I was told, just like every other child does. For a long time I went to church, to Bible studies, and never thought twice about them. True, I found the ceremony of “witnessing” quite distasteful, but I did not have to participate in it.

Later, I thought that the materialistic and “spiritual” approach have about equal merit, neither can be proven or disproven. That was what is usually (and incorrectly) called agnosticism.

Finally, when I started to think about it seriously, I realized that the concept of a “spirit”, detached from “matter” is an unnecessary hypothesis, to me it was nonsensical. Also, when I saw all the whitewashing of God when it came to the “problem of evil”, all the so-called “arguements”, I became really disillusioned with all forms of religion.

So I became an atheist. That’s all folks. ]

I can respect and understand that, however you have some misconceptions about the problem of evil, it is just a concequenze of our free will.
If we didnt have freewill we would be like some sort of robots that loved God no matter what, we wont be able to choose and a forced love is not real love.

So like Leibniz said, this world is the best world even with all its myseries that happen over here, because this equilibrium is the best one in which men are free to do what they want, and are also able to love God.
and God allow men to accept or reject his guideance.

I dont think you should think that God is some sort of dictator either. he has trascendental ways to save every kind of person from atheists to anybody.
Personately I think that is why we think that God is a myth, because we want to understand his judgments and we are not able, so we rush to the conclusion that he dosent exist, or we compare his jugments with ours, and that is a mistake.

That is very unlikely. To declare that an event is miraculous is to assert that it cannot have a natrual explanation. Not just now - forever. To assert that simply needs omniscience - to know all the possible developments of all the sciences as long as the human race exists. And that is a serious assertion.

At best one can say: this is event is unexplained due to our current level of knowledge. That is an honest opinion. But to say that it can never be explained…

well as we have stated before ins everal threads, science cant prove God

Imagine if you had the shroud of turin and it had proffs that it was the shroud in which Jesus resurected and imagine that the radiation of the resurection cant be explained scientificaly by any modern way. Then you could go to the extreme of simply argue for the doubt and say that the resurection of Jesus is something that we cant explain by modern day’s science, but that it dosent has anythin divine, because you could say that we will be able to explain it by the science in the future.

Science cant tell you whether God exist or not, science only can tell you that the miracles have no obvious explanation for nowadays science. You msut use your “reason” in order to realizie that the event of the resurection is linked with the existens of God.
That way, using reason and science you will be able to realize the existens of God. but science alone cant prove God at all.
science can only tell you whether something is explanable or not, it never considers spiritual stufs, the act of considering spiritual stuffs is up to common sense and reason.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Is there any proof that Roman Catholicism is true?

There are reasons to believe - but no proof. Nor should there be. ​

 

[po18guy]

You know, my friend, I did. As a child I did, many times. As honestly as only a child can do. There were two kinds: one that I had to do every night, just words, without any meaning to me. The other ones came from my heart. Those were never answered with a “yes”.

I would suggest starting again, keeping your childlike qualities. The Kingdom of Heaven belongs to the childlike, not the childish! You might have noticed that a certain hard edge, a cynicism creeps into life. Christ softens that edge with the power of His Divine love.

In the satirical newspaper “the Onion”, there was an article about a small, crippled kid, who prayed to God that his health be restored, so he could get out of his wheelchair. God answered: “NO”. Now this was a very satiricial article, not to be taken seriously.

The lord does not usually answer so forcefully or clearly, but reminds us that suffering, as Christ suffered, is redemptive, and is intended for the perfection of our souls. My personal favorite Onion article was over the Buddhist monks that were engaged in a dispute over which was the most serene!

But it refleced real life. How many little children are hungry, crippled, starving, disease ridden, tortured, hacked to little pieces by a machete? Many. God listenes to their little prayers, and says: “NO”.

But, we see the short run. God is a long run sort of being. Go to : cfcausa.org/
You will be able to help, instead of worry or despair.

Why pray for that? It will be done.

Scripture is littered with examples of God taking compassion upon those who call upon His name. Exodus is a prime example. Job is yet another. The entire New Testament a third.

Testimonial evidence can go only so far. No testimonial evidence can establish the “miracles” of walking on water, etc… **Probably **there was a historical person called Jesus (after all it is a common name), who was a charismatic person, with some minor following. There is not one historical record attesting to all the things he supposed to have accomplished. There is the Bible, written many years after his death, that is all.

Not just probably. Pagan Roman citizen “Pliny the Younger” documented Christ. So did Jewish authorities. You fell prey to the aims of the “Jesus Seminar”, a bunch of self-important academic stuffed shirts that in the 1990s de-constructed Christianity only to replace it with…them. Ugh! As to any lie that is repeated, time brings all to light. All lies are eventually exposed to do not survive the test of time. Nearly 2,000 years, and swimming pools of blood that was shed for the faith do not add up to a lie. 2,000 years! The Jesus Seminar is nearly forgotten 15 years later, because of its vacuousness and cynicism.

I would love to live a long time. I don’t know about “eternal” - it would be very boring. People don’t want “eternal” life, they just don’t want to die. Very different!

Life without a definite and positive purpose is boring. I’ll take eternal life, if I can get it, as you have pointed to reasons to hate this life. If there is no afterlife, this life is meaningless. Jack Kevorkian does not believe in afterlife, he believes in taking life. His happiness is death - but others, not him. Professor Peter Singer does not fear God. He wants to examine live babies for defects and kill the defective ones - he will judge, and live. Great reasons for hope, huh? Contrast these pathetic men with Mother Theresa. Loving those whom the world spat upon, and whom you are concerned about. So much she did for them, out of love, not cynicism.

 

[ateista]

The lord does not usually answer so forcefully or clearly, but reminds us that suffering, as Christ suffered, is redemptive, and is intended for the perfection of our souls. My personal favorite Onion article was over the Buddhist monks that were engaged in a dispute over which was the most serene!

I am glad you are a fellow-Onion-reader. It is so funny!

Scripture is littered with examples of God taking compassion upon those who call upon His name. Exodus is a prime example. Job is yet another. The entire New Testament a third.

So is God immutable, or not?

Life without a definite and positive purpose is boring.

Very much agreed. But the purpose is (should be) also in this life. Otherwise it is just a dream.

If there is no afterlife, this life is meaningless.

And with this I very seriously disagree. Life has no intrinsic value, but it can be made valuable, if one works at it. The life of an atheist is not without value, but his death is. You should have said: “if there is no afterlife, then death is meaningless” and, yes, I would agree with you.

Jack Kevorkian does not believe in afterlife, he believes in taking life. His happiness is death - but others, not him.

He believes in the dignity of a human being, and helps them to end their own life if they so desire. He values the quality of life, not just life itself.

Contrast these pathetic men with Mother Theresa. Loving those whom the world spat upon, and whom you are concerned about. So much she did for them, out of love, not cynicism.

Well, you brought it up, not me. I usually do not reflect on Mother Theresa, but since you did, I will give my thoughts on her.

She collected a huge amount of money from generous people. She could have created actual hospitals, to truly help the sick ones. Instead she created die-away houses, where they prayed over the people, until they died. When she suffered a heart problem, she was flown to the best hospital around. She did not choose to be in one of her own hospitals.

In my world that is hypocrisy. Nothing else. So, forgive me, but I do not consider her a “decent” human being at all.

 

[ateista]

If we didnt have freewill we would be like some sort of robots that loved God no matter what, we wont be able to choose and a forced love is not real love.

This argument came up so many times. Free will explains nothing when it comes to the “evils” of this world.

At best it can explain that evil is impossible if one does not have a free will - that is true. But the opposite is false: namely stating that the existence of free will invariably leads to the existence of evil. That is patently false.

Personately I think that is why we think that God is a myth, because we want to understand his judgments and we are not able, so we rush to the conclusion that he dosent exist, or we compare his jugments with ours, and that is a mistake.

Why is that a mistake? We never have full information even here on Earthly matters. We always make value judgements based upon incomplete information. The judges who deliver sentences never know what the criminal had in his mind, when he broke the law. Does that make their sentences invalid?

What we have to be aware of is that our judgement might be incorrect and we should be willing to change our mind when additional information becomes available. Why should God be exempt from this well-established method?

As the old Romans said: “Quod licet Iovi, not licet bovi” - what is allowed to Jupiter is not allowed for the ox. I disagree with this concept. We must measure equally, whether it comes to God or us. That is why justice is depicted as a blind-folded lady. She must make a judgement based upon the facts, not the “social standing” of the perpetrators.

God should not have a “free ride”. It is interesting that the Jews actually held a court and convicted God for breaking his covenant with them. (Of course after the court they went back and worshipped him anyway.)