Any Quakers online ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter brb3
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The Catholic/Orthodox church is not a divinely instituted organization.

Inward Life can occur without the rituals and rites…so we do not see the need to engage in “outward forms” or rituals that to us, would seem to take the place of the Reality we have already experienced without them.
So … Christ did not give us the sacraments of Baptism, Eucharist, and Confirmation ?

What you see as ‘rituals’ we see as divinely taught sacraments by Christ in scripture. We have scripture and history to back up the Catholic Church’s teachings.

What scripture do you use to 1.) support your beliefs & 2.) contradict the Catholic Church on the sacraments.
 
So … Christ did not give us the sacraments of Baptism, Eucharist, and Confirmation ?

What you see as ‘rituals’ we see as divinely taught sacraments by Christ in scripture. We have scripture and history to back up the Catholic Church’s teachings.

What scripture do you use to 1.) support your beliefs & 2.) contradict the Catholic Church on the sacraments.
I understand your beliefs…but to the question…No, Jesus did not “give us the sacraments of Baptism, Eucharist, and Confirmation”…He gave us Himself…it is He who Baptizes us in His Spirit…it is He who comes to us as a Living Presence in our midst as we celebrate and commune with Him, and it is He through the indwelling of His Spirit that “confirms” us as members of His Church and Kingdom.

I understand your beliefs concerning those passages…I do not share them.

I don’t necessarily use the written records of others experience with God in Christ…I use my own experience with God in Christ…concerning scriptures, “the scriptures are only a declaration of the fountain and not the foutain itself, therefore they are not tob e esteemed the principle ground of all truth and knowledge, nor yet the adequate, primary rule of faith, and manners. Yet, because they give a true and faithful testimony of the first foundation, they are and may be esteemed a secondary rule, subordinate to the Spirit, from which they have all their excellency and certainty” for, as by the inward testimony of the Spirit we do alone truly know them, so they testify that the Spirit is that Guide by which the saints are led into all truth" therefore, according to the scriptures the Spirit is the first and principle Leader."

We have no need for an earthly mediator to “confect” a sacrament on our behalf…we have and experience the Living Reality of Christ Truly Present among us. One may engage in “outward forms” and remain unchanged in life and spirit…but no one experiencing the Inward Reality of His Presence can remain the same…and this can and is done without an “outward ritual”.

"
 
Hello Publisher,
I see various struggles between those who followed Jesus of Nazareth and the established Jewish understanding of what the messiah was to be.
Do you understand that Jesus is the Messiah who is referred to in the Old Testament? Or do you think that people should wait for the Messiah? Are you not sure that he is the Messiah or do you lean towards the universalist view that God is One and will call all to himself at one point and that individual souls will be consumed by God as if in a fire and loose their identity?



I was taking a look at:

Theology of Universalism
Being
An Exposition of Its Doctrines and Teachings,
In Their
Logical and Moral Relations;
Including
A Criticism of the Texts,
Cited In Proof of the Trinity, Vicarious Atonement,
Natural Depravity, A General Judgment and
Endless Punishment.

By Thomas Baldwin Thayer

This and all the other readings I have been doing for this thread made me recall a comical comment a Bishop from Illinois (or there abouts) recently made on EWTN. He quoted someone that said we can take verses and sentences from the Bible and prove that the Bible demonstrates that water does not run downward but rather upward. :sad_yes:People can obviously take verses from the Bible out of context and prove Jesus was teaching things completely contrary to what he really was.

I was doing a little reading on the Quakers. I know wiki is not reliable but, if I am not sure of something I just verify it. There is usually plenty of referrences given on the articles. So, I find wiki can be helpful to get some general information etc… They have a good general article on the Quakers which sounds much like what you have presented. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers As you can see the Quakers had splits and conflicts too

An Apology for the True Christian Divinity: Being an Explanation and Vindication of the Principles and Doctrines of the People Called Quakers

This starts very nicely. It is ironic that an educated person who could write so eloquently should miss the mark exactly about the logic he is describing and be a victim of exactly what he is warning about:

" If either through the reverence he bears to certain persons, or from the secret inclination to what doth comply with his natural disposition, he fall upon any principles or means, by which he apprehends he may come to know God, and so doth centre himself, it will be hard to remove him thence again, how wrong soever they may be: for the first anguish being over, he becomes more hardy; and the enemy being near, creates a false peace, and a certain confidence, which is strengthened by the mind’s unwillingness to enter again into new doubtfulness, or the former anxiety of a search. "

ccel.org/ccel/barclay/quakers.vii.i.html

Publisher, allow me to ask you: Do you think that God would leave it to human beings to find him and not leave a Church? Look around at what human beings can come up with, some of us have great imaginations. But, God knowing us more than we know ourselves did not leave it to our imagination to find him. Did you hear about the new christian church from the Netherlands? They believe that they should go to Mass nude because that is how God intended from the beginning. (no link provided as there is a picture in the Netherland’s newspaper article of the nudist). In voodo practices they sacrifice the Eucharist and human beings to gain power and have mixed Catholicism with African voodo. I recently attended a lecture on Hatian Voodo presented by a voodist professor. An educated Haitian woman said that Haiti is 80% Catholic and 100% Voodist. It was a big promotion of the Voodo sect. Imagine, a sect that depends on the ‘products’ of the Catholic Church (Eucharist, ashes, palms etc…) for it’s rituals.

There are all types of sects and beliefs in the world. I do not think that God left us to be deceived by the intellect or imagination of humans and their desires etc… nor to be guide by diabolical inventions and lies of Satan and his demons. Jesus is the Good Shepherd and he knows that we do not see clearly on our own and can be misguided and get lost. He left us his Church which is guided by the Holy Spirit and he said that he will always be with us and that the Gates of Hell will not bring down his Church. What Church? Do you think that he waited 1700 years until the Quakers got established to establish his Church? Do you think that for 1700 odd years he left us without a Church? I don’t think so. I think his Church is the Catholic Church and I hope and pray that you will continue your search and investigation.

Peace,

Abba
 
Abba,

I do embrace a “universalist” view. One “day” God will reconcile ALL to Himself. There is no hell so deep that the Presence is not there as well. His mercy endures forever…what good is mercy that lasts forever if it can’t be offered?

I don’t believe Jesus of Nazareth was the expected Jewish messiah…he was an enitely different type of “Chosen One”, “Annointed One” than of Jewish expectation.

Jesus came as the Light of the World…the Word made flesh…“Immanuel, God with us”. He is the Everlasting Covenant and all who come to him in faith will not be turned away. The Church is not an organization…no more than Israel of the Heberew Bible is an organization…The Church is a redeemed People, with Christ as our New Moses…our New Joshua…our New David. He is Present among us to teach us Himself, He is Priest, He is Baptizer, He is the Living Bread and True Vine.

No, He did not leave us without witness…this new life in Him does not take place through ritual and rites as the Old Covenant…He did not come to exhange an old set of rites and rituals for a new set.

I agree, there are all types of sects and beleifs…of which the Catholic church is one of many such sects and organizations…His Church, His Holy Temple is not made with stone and mortar…it is made up of individuals who collectively come together and worship…then go out into the world as leaven to touch other lives.

If being Catholic inspires you to live a holy life…to serve others…to experience His Presence, wonderful…

For me to trust an organization and it’s heirarchy made of men who have no more “pull” with the Almighty than I, seems utter foolishness to me. I am to “work out my own salvation…” not let someone else 'work it out for me".

The story Jesus is recorded to have given about the Last Day has the King say…“I was hungry, I was thirsty, I was in prison and you did not do to me…”…not “You didn’t get baptized, you didn’t join an organization and adhere to it’s rites and rituals”…He asked a totally different set of questions and had a whole different criteria than 'being a member of the Catholic church" or the “Mormon church” or the “Orthodox church” or the “Methodist church” or any number of religious organizations or performing any religious rites or rituals.
 
It is not logical to cherry pick the Bible.

I wish you all the best and will keep you in my humble prayers,

Abba
 
It is not logical to cherry pick the Bible.

I wish you all the best and will keep you in my humble prayers,

Abba
And yet we all do it…it’s just easier to see when “others” do it than when “we” do it.🙂

I will also hold you in the Light.
 
Jesus did not “give us the sacraments of Baptism, Eucharist, and Confirmation”…He gave us Himself…it is He who Baptizes us in His Spirit…it is He who comes to us as a Living Presence in our midst as we celebrate and commune with Him, and it is He through the indwelling of His Spirit that “confirms” us as members of His Church and Kingdom.

We have no need for an earthly mediator to “confect” a sacrament on our behalf…we have and experience the Living Reality of Christ Truly Present among us. One may engage in “outward forms” and remain unchanged in life and spirit…but no one experiencing the Inward Reality of His Presence can remain the same…and this can and is done without an “outward ritual”.

"
Then, tell us why Christ had the Baptist wash him with water ? Why did Christ teach his disciples to take water baptism to the ends of the world ? Why did Christ break bread and offer the cup with disciples … and teach them to do this as often as they meet ?

If Christ believed as you … tell us why he taught otherwise? And, by whose authority do you teach against Christ ?
 
Anyone can participate in the eucharist offered by priest or minister and remain unchanged…anyone can be baptized by priest or minister and remain unchanged…they in and of themselves do nothing to effect an inward and spiritual change evidenced by an outward life…but being baptised in the Spirit…eating the Living Bread and drinking the Living Water and communing with Him does make us “new creations”…if one has the Immediate Reality…then the ‘outward forms’ do not seem necessary.
May I ask if this is coming from your own personal philosophy or is this a “Friend” teaching ? It certainly can’t be a scripture teaching since it directly contradicts the literal text. It also directly challenges the Catholic Church’s apostolic teaching.

Would appreciate explaining it in view of the following scripture which clearly shows a negative change in the case of receiving Eucharist unworthily. It follows that receiving the Eucharist worthily changes in a positive sense since God would never give us a gift that was worthless or which only harmed us if misused.
1 Cor 11:27-30 27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.*

Commentary:
In 1 Cor 11:27-30 Paul says that eating or drinking in an unworthy manner is the equivalent of profaning (literally, murdering) the body and blood of the Lord. If this is just a mere symbol, we cannot be guilty of actually profaning (murdering) it. We cannot murder a symbol. Either Paul, the divinely inspired apostle of God, is imposing an unjust penalty, or the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ and partaking of it unworthily most definately causes a real inward change - in this unworthy case a deadly change spiritually and physically. The positive change is seen is in the logical extension that a father never gives a bad gift and this is confirmed in other verses:

Therefor your thesis or teaching or opinion does not stand up to scripture. Can you explain in light of this? In fact Paul tells us that we must be feed the Eucharist and so did Jesus. So why would Jesus and the apostles feed us the bread of life if it did not invoke some change (given the precondition of worthiness)? Your teaching if it were true would conspire to make the words of Christ and the apostles mere rhetoric, But that would be a sin of insincerity given the solemness of the matter taught here - eternal life.

*John 21:15,17 15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”

John 6:53-56 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. *

Commentary: Jesus charges Peter to “feed” His sheep, that is, with the Word of God through preaching and implicitly the Eucharist too. Jesus tells us that partaking of His body and blood keeps us in Communion (“in Him”) with Him and that gives one Eternal Life. This is another contradiction to your theses that Eucharist does nothing inwardly to one disposed to receive grace worthily and in proportion to our repentant readiness. Scripture tells us plainly that Eucharist keeps us “in Christ”. By partaking of our daily bread we are asked to be “worthy” to receive daily (continuous repentance and avoidance of sin) otherwise we make ourselves sick and face spiritual death - either by disobeying the commandment to partake of Eucharist and not discerning the Lord or by receiving unworthily (not repenting of grave sin and confessing it).

I can go on here about baptism (Acts 9:17-19) and the events associated with Paul’s scales falling away from his eyes as Ananias lays hands on him to ordain him and baptise him. These are manifest signs of changes in the nature of the person - spiritual eyesight.

Using your own pattern of logic it seems to me that Friends/Quakers are simply exchanging the biblical sacraments for a ritual of silence amidst spontaneous oration/prayer-ejaculatives.

May I ask - ‘how do Quakers end their “church time”’? Are “services” over when people stop speaking or when folks start yawning/nodding-out or at some pre-arranged hour announced by someone before entering into silence?

James
 
I attended Quaker meetings for months before I found the Church. Most of the Quakers I met were atheists who were uncomfortable even saying the word “God”; the rest were New Agers. All of them that I talked to denied the divinity of Christ in one way or another and some actually insulted Jesus during “Meeting for Worship” and no one objected. Mostly they talked about politics.

Some of them were very nice but they are not Christians. They just pretend to be (for some reason that is totally beyond me).

James - The meetings I went to were always scheduled to last an hour. Actually, Meeting for Business would usually go longer, several hours or more.
 
Most of the Quakers I met were atheists who were uncomfortable even saying the word “God”; the rest were New Agers. All of them that I talked to denied the divinity of Christ in one way or another and some actually insulted Jesus during “Meeting for Worship” and no one objected. Mostly they talked about politics.
Publisher …

Can you confirm the above ? Why else would you reject so much of scripture … especially the actual teachings of Christ regarding himself and his Church ?
 
Publisher …

Can you confirm the above ? Why else would you reject so much of scripture … especially the actual teachings of Christ regarding himself and his Church ?
Friends don’t “reject the scripture”…we may not accept your understanding nor do we accept the understanding of your church…but they are a source of inspiriation and in their pages we learn what others thought and think of God and Christ…nor do we “insult Jesus” in Meeting…especially a Meeting for Worship where we are there to commune with the Light…the Presence in the Midst. We may discuss his nature and seek to understand the unique revelation of God through Christ in words you or your church would not use…but not using your words or creeds is hardly “insult”.

Are there atheists in our midst…you bet…as they too bear that of God within themselves…realized or not…God is present in their lives…quietly, patiently, lovingly calling them to faith…and if they do not find they can “believe”…then this Light Within calls them even still to minister to the world around them in service to others. Robert Barclay stated it like this…“There may be members therefore of this catholic church both among heathen, Turks, Jews and all the several sorts of Christians, men and women of integrity and simplicity of heart, who, though blinded in some ways in their understanding and perhaps burdened with the superstitious and fromality of the several sects in which they are engroussed, ye being upright in their hearts before the Lord, chiefly aiming and labouring to be delivered from iniqauity, and living to follow righteousness, are by the secret touches of this Holy Light int their souls enlivened and quickened, thereby secretly united to God and there-through become true members of this catholic church.”

Some people come to Meeting as Seekers…wanting a faith that moves beyond ritual and rites. The true sacraments are inward and Real…we do not deny “sacraments”…“Friends affirm the sacramental nature of the whole of life when it is under the leading of the Spirit. Any moment, any relationship, any object when so touched can serve as a sacrament. Insofar as we are faithful to our testimonies, our very lives may thus serve for others as the outward visible evidence of inward and invisible communion.” Philadlephia Yearly Meeting

Silence itself can and for some does become an “outward form”…it too devoid of any substance…it too devoid of the inward power to change lives.

If the sacraments are important, then they must be able to reach inward and effect outward change…if being baptized in water only makes a person “wet”…it is an “outward form” void of any spiritual power. If partaking in the eucharist does not infuse the communicant with a spiritual life and inwardly change them to be more like Jesus…then it is a dead “outward form”. If these outward signs are empty ritual…then what benefit does the participant find in participating in them?

Friends claim that an Inward Life and Spiritual Baptism and Inward Communion in direct experience with God is possible without the outward forms.

We did not exhange a “pope of flesh for a pope of paper”. The scriptures are a guide…but they are not the end or means of Spirit. We have our High Priest…there is a True Teacher and Guide in our midst…we don’t need a human intermediary to “confect” anything for us…or to make sure we have the correct formula spoken over us as we are dunked or sprinkled with water…the Holy Spirit is the Baptizer…nothing else will suffice.

Friends do not have the luxury of saying…“The church teaches this”…or “the Bible says this”…or “my minister tells me such and such.” Each of us must experience the Life of God in our lives and “work out our own salvation” together. As one Friend stated…“No one is allowed to get it second-hand by accepting a ready-made creed. The Discovery poiints a path and demands a Journey, and gives you the power to make the Journey.”

Is it frightening at times? Yes…wonderfully awefully frightening…but well worth it…I don’t get to point to the past forebears and say…“They believed thus…so I must also believe that way.”…I must interpret this New Life in my own day and age…we have a Living God…a Present God…not one from the past…“He is present among His people to teach them Himself.”
 
Friends don’t “reject the scripture”…we may not accept your understanding nor do we accept the understanding of your church…but they are a source of inspiriation and in their pages we learn what others thought and think of God and Christ…nor do we “insult Jesus” in Meeting…especially a Meeting for Worship where we are there to commune with the Light…the Presence in the Midst. We may discuss his nature and seek to understand the unique revelation of God through Christ in words you or your church would not use…but not using your words or creeds is hardly “insult”.

Are there atheists in our midst…you bet…as they too bear that of God within themselves…realized or not…God is present in their lives…quietly, patiently, lovingly calling them to faith…and if they do not find they can “believe”…then this Light Within calls them even still to minister to the world around them in service to others. Robert Barclay stated it like this…“There may be members therefore of this catholic church both among heathen, Turks, Jews and all the several sorts of Christians, men and women of integrity and simplicity of heart, who, though blinded in some ways in their understanding and perhaps burdened with the superstitious and fromality of the several sects in which they are engroussed, ye being upright in their hearts before the Lord, chiefly aiming and labouring to be delivered from iniqauity, and living to follow righteousness, are by the secret touches of this Holy Light int their souls enlivened and quickened, thereby secretly united to God and there-through become true members of this catholic church.”

Some people come to Meeting as Seekers…wanting a faith that moves beyond ritual and rites. The true sacraments are inward and Real…we do not deny “sacraments”…“Friends affirm the sacramental nature of the whole of life when it is under the leading of the Spirit. Any moment, any relationship, any object when so touched can serve as a sacrament. Insofar as we are faithful to our testimonies, our very lives may thus serve for others as the outward visible evidence of inward and invisible communion.” Philadlephia Yearly Meeting

Silence itself can and for some does become an “outward form”…it too devoid of any substance…it too devoid of the inward power to change lives.

If the sacraments are important, then they must be able to reach inward and effect outward change…if being baptized in water only makes a person “wet”…it is an “outward form” void of any spiritual power. If partaking in the eucharist does not infuse the communicant with a spiritual life and inwardly change them to be more like Jesus…then it is a dead “outward form”. If these outward signs are empty ritual…then what benefit does the participant find in participating in them?

Friends claim that an Inward Life and Spiritual Baptism and Inward Communion in direct experience with God is possible without the outward forms.

We did not exhange a “pope of flesh for a pope of paper”. The scriptures are a guide…but they are not the end or means of Spirit. We have our High Priest…there is a True Teacher and Guide in our midst…we don’t need a human intermediary to “confect” anything for us…or to make sure we have the correct formula spoken over us as we are dunked or sprinkled with water…the Holy Spirit is the Baptizer…nothing else will suffice.

Friends do not have the luxury of saying…“The church teaches this”…or “the Bible says this”…or “my minister tells me such and such.” Each of us must experience the Life of God in our lives and “work out our own salvation” together. As one Friend stated…“No one is allowed to get it second-hand by accepting a ready-made creed. The Discovery poiints a path and demands a Journey, and gives you the power to make the Journey.”

Is it frightening at times? Yes…wonderfully awefully frightening…but well worth it…I don’t get to point to the past forebears and say…“They believed thus…so I must also believe that way.”…I must interpret this New Life in my own day and age…we have a Living God…a Present God…not one from the past…“He is present among His people to teach them Himself.”
No disrespect but it sounds to me like Quakers/Friends were the first American transcendental medication sect to hit the continent. This has been most revealing. I never knew that Quakers were not Christians. It’s all just a philosophy that intellectualizes spirituality.

James
 
No disrespect but it sounds to me like Quakers/Friends were the first American transcendental medication sect to hit the continent. This has been most revealing. I never knew that Quakers were not Christians. It’s all just a philosophy that intellectualizes spirituality.

James
No offense taken. Most Friends would claim the name “Christian”. It is an “experiential” belief system…and you’re not the first Catholic or Protestant to tell us we’re “not Christian”.

We have high hopes for humanity…" I saw also that there was an ocean of darkness and death, but an infinite ocean of light and love, which flowed over the ocean of darkness."

If you really are interested in understanding Quaker spirituality, pick up a copy of Thomas Kelly’s “Testament of Devotion”…then decide for yourself if we are “Christian or not”.
 
Friends don’t “reject the scripture”…we may not accept your understanding nor do we accept the understanding of your church…but they are a source of inspiriation and in their pages we learn what others thought and think of God and Christ…nor do we “insult Jesus” in Meeting…especially a Meeting for Worship where we are there to commune with the Light…the Presence in the Midst. We may discuss his nature and seek to understand the unique revelation of God through Christ in words you or your church would not use…but not using your words or creeds is hardly “insult”.
So in your opinion, saying that Jesus was a fraud and that the Resurrection was a “perversion of pagan myth” invented by His followers, during Meeting for Worship on Easter morning, is not an insult? I disagree.
 
No offense taken. Most Friends would claim the name “Christian”. It is an “experiential” belief system…and you’re not the first Catholic or Protestant to tell us we’re “not Christian”.

We have high hopes for humanity…" I saw also that there was an ocean of darkness and death, but an infinite ocean of light and love, which flowed over the ocean of darkness."

If you really are interested in understanding Quaker spirituality, pick up a copy of Thomas Kelly’s “Testament of Devotion”…then decide for yourself if we are “Christian or not”.
That is surprising with respect to the prior education about Quakers that they would consider themselves Christian when they don’t seem to do any thing that the early Christians did. There are no biblical accounts of people gathering and sitting in silence and meditating on the word or God. Quite the contrary it was a rowdy group all speaking in toungues, very active community prayer as well as private prayer, coming together to break the bread (Eucharist) at the agape feasts and also actively getting out and evangelizing and spreading the good news. Do Quakers have an active evangelising to spread the Good News to all the world? I think a prior poster said that its almost like a private club - one had to get invited into the elder status and then observed for long time before given any real leadership. That’s completely different from the early Church which converted souls from all walks of life and taught all in the faith, baptised them then appointed clergy and elders. They had public confessions, healing and ministry of sick and in some cases were very communal in their living conditions.

James
 
That is surprising with respect to the prior education about Quakers that they would consider themselves Christian when they don’t seem to do any thing that the early Christians did. There are no biblical accounts of people gathering and sitting in silence and meditating on the word or God. Quite the contrary it was a rowdy group all speaking in toungues, very active community prayer as well as private prayer, coming together to break the bread (Eucharist) at the agape feasts and also actively getting out and evangelizing and spreading the good news. Do Quakers have an active evangelising to spread the Good News to all the world? I think a prior poster said that its almost like a private club - one had to get invited into the elder status and then observed for long time before given any real leadership. That’s completely different from the early Church which converted souls from all walks of life and taught all in the faith, baptised them then appointed clergy and elders. They had public confessions, healing and ministry of sick and in some cases were very communal in their living conditions.

James
Oh, we get pretty rowdy at times…especially during Meeting for Worship for Business.

The Evangelical Friends do sponsor missionaries…in fact the largest groups of Quakers are no longer found in North America…but in South America and Africa.

Many of our “un-programmed” Meetings sponsor homeless shelters, food banks, AIDS homes etc.

We have our “agape feasts”…each meal we share is an opportunity to experience “sacramental grace”…each cup of water offered to someone thirsty is a “sacrament”.

Friends don’t “ordain”…we “record”. It is our belief that it is God in Christ Himself who calls men and women to ministry, and it is through the Meeting that those gifts of ministry are recognized. Not all Yearly Meetings “record” those with ministerial gifts…but ministerial gifts of preaching and teaching and “healing” are still recognized. Each of us is considered “priest” and “minister” for each of us share some “gifts” to offer in service to others.

Friends don’t utilize 'creeds"…we have “Queries” that are used to gauge our spiritual lives and by these “Queries” we become accountable with one another…following are some of the Queries each of us are called to answer for ourselves…and seek help among Friends when our spiritual lives seem lacking…One or more of the Queries are asked each Meeting for Worship for Business…then meditated upon in worshipful silence before any “business” begins.

"Are meetings for business held in a spirit of worship, understanding and forbearance? When direction seems lacking, is this seen as a challenge to a more prayerful search for truth? Do we humbly set aside our own preconceived notions as to proper action, seeking instead Divine guidance as to the right course? Is the Meeting aware that it speaks not only through its actions but also through its failure to act? "

“Do you make time for meditation, prayer and worship? Do you read the Bible, the writings of Friends, and other inspirational works, seeking new light? Do you regularly seek God’s guidance? Are you open to guidance and support and do you give thanks for them? Do you share your spiritual insights with others and willingly receive from them in turn?”

" Do you live in accordance with your spiritual convictions? Do you seek employment consistent with your beliefs and in service to society? Do you practice simplicity in speech, dress and manner of living, avoiding wasteful consumption? Are you watchful that your possessions do not rule you? Do you strive to be truthful at all times, avoiding judicial oaths? "

“Do you make your home a place of affection where God’s presence is felt? Do you practice family prayer? Do you share your deepest beliefs and interests with all in the family? Do you grow together through sharing prosperity and adversity? Can you keep a sense of humor and avoid taking yourself too seriously? Do you establish family standards including the mutual obligations of children and adults?”

“Do you respect that of God in every person? Do you search yourself for and strive to eliminate prejudices such as those related to race, religion, gender, age, sexual orientation and economic condition? In what ways do you accept and appreciate differences among your friends and associates? Do you avoid exploiting or manipulating others to accomplish ends, however worthy?”

“Do you, as the way opens, share Friends’ principles with non-Friends? Do you witness to your Quaker faith by letting your life speak? Do you make non-Friends welcome in your meetings for worship? Do you find ways to encourage their continued attendance?”

There are many more…we are called continuously to examine our lives and to make ourselves accountable with one another…these “Queries” are as much of a “creed” among us as you will find.

We do take care in leading Seekers to understand the commitment they will be making when they come to be named among us. It can take a year…or a matter of months…it all depends on each individual case…we try to make sure there is no “exclusivity” among us…we hold equality in high esteem…when we need direction…we have a process in place to seek that guidence collectively.

To your point of not “doing what early Christians and the early church did.”…a Quaker “maxim”…

Thee will say Christ saith this, and the apostles say this,
but what canst thou say? Art thou a child of Light and hast thou walked in the Light, and what thou speakest is it inwardly from God?" We do not “hang our hat” on our befores…we learn from them…but we must experience this Life for ourselves and come to understand God for ourselves.
 
One of the problems with trying to have a discussion with Quakers about what they believe is that they have a tendency to privately redefine words so that what you hear is not what they are thinking. If you ask a Quaker, “Do you believe in God?” (some will say yes and some will say no) and they answer yes, you have no way of knowing that what they are thinking of is the same as what you are thinking of when you say “God.” They may be thinking of God as a part of their own minds, or as a feeling, or as an ideal that humans need but that doesn’t exist in objective actuality. Same with “Christ.”

So instead you have to ask them, “Do you believe in an all-powerful personal God who created everything? Do you believe in the Trinity? Do you believe Jesus Christ is one of the three Persons of the Trinity who became incarnate as a man in the year 0 A.D.?”

Maybe Publisher could answer some of these questions.
 
One of the problems with trying to have a discussion with Quakers about what they believe is that they have a tendency to privately redefine words so that what you hear is not what they are thinking. If you ask a Quaker, “Do you believe in God?” (some will say yes and some will say no) and they answer yes, you have no way of knowing that what they are thinking of is the same as what you are thinking of when you say “God.” They may be thinking of God as a part of their own minds, or as a feeling, or as an ideal that humans need but that doesn’t exist in objective actuality. Same with “Christ.”

So instead you have to ask them, “Do you believe in an all-powerful personal God who created everything? Do you believe in the Trinity? Do you believe Jesus Christ is one of the three Persons of the Trinity who became incarnate as a man in the year 0 A.D.?”

Maybe Publisher could answer some of these questions.
I believe in God…the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. Who is Immanent as well as Transcendent…Wholly Other…Jesus of Nazareth is the “exact representation of His person”…“The Word was made flesh.” The Light of the World. He lives much more than we do. The mechanics of all this is pretty much beyond me…In Jesus of Nazareth God is met and known. If God is to be understood, Jesus of Nazareth is the one whom makes God known to our finite minds and hearts. The abiding Presence of God continues in our world…and this God indwells each of us…we share the “breath of Life” from Him…In Him we live and move and have our being.

I don’t pretend to understand the “incarnation”…only that each of us must share in that “incarnation” as we seek to become more like the man Jesus…and be conformed to his image.

God is experineced in our lives…Truth is something to be lived and expressed in the daily of life…it is not a neat set of propositions that one must ascribe to…but lived out and find expression in our lives.

“Trinity” is a theological term that in a very simple form, I can embrace…but the gyrations one must make to ‘explain’ the intricacy of “incarnation” is beyond me and the creedal words loose much of their meaning…for the “incarnation” to have any real meaning to me as a 21st century man living in the US, I must “share incarnation with him”…I must “put on Christ” and bear his image in my world…if I am able to do even a part of that…Truth has been served.

A passage from the “Testament of Devotion” by Thomas Kelly reflects my idea of what it entails to “follow Jesus” and the “gist” of what it is to be a Friend…

"The basic response of the soul to the Light is the internal adoration and joy, thanksgiving and worship, self-surrender and listening. The Secret Places of the heart cease to be our noisy workshop. they become a Holy Sanctuary of adoration and of self-oblation, where we are kept in perfect peace, if our minds are stayed on Him who has found us in the inward springs of life. And in brief intervals of overpowering visitation we are able to carry the Sanctuary frame of mind out into the world, into its trumoil and its fitfullness, and in a hyperasestesia of the soul, we see all manking tinged with Deeper Shadows, and touched with Galilean glories."

I may not get all of the deep theological intricacies expressed to meet the creedal statement of the various religious organizations…but I do know that my neighbor wears the face of Christ…the elderly man down the street needs a ride to his medical appointment…the single mother who lives down the street that works at the local strip club to make ends meet once in a while needs a meal for her kids…the gay couple across the street that is dealing with end stage AIDS/prostate cancer enjoys a boquet of tulips after one of them has a hospital stay…funny…not once in these peoples lives have they asked if I believe in the Trinity…nor do they care…but the stripper has gone to Meeting with me and was welcomed…one of the partners has gone to Meeting with me before he’s off to the hospital to see his friend and the Clerk of the Meeting went with him to pray…each of them is “tinged with Galilean glory” and the Light Within…that of God is evidenced in each of them.

I have “experienced” the evidence of the Quaker message…in it’s quiet simple unobtrusive way that hopefully made a difference in a few lives I’ve had the privlege in knowing.
 
Friends don’t utilize 'creeds"…we have “Queries” that are used to gauge our spiritual lives and by these “Queries” we become accountable with one another…following are some of the Queries each of us are called to answer for ourselves…and seek help among Friends when our spiritual lives seem lacking…One or more of the Queries are asked each Meeting for Worship for Business…then meditated upon in worshipful silence before any “business” begins.

"Are meetings for business held in a spirit of worship, understanding and forbearance? When direction seems lacking, is this seen as a challenge to a more prayerful search for truth? Do we humbly set aside our own preconceived notions as to proper action, seeking instead Divine guidance as to the right course? Is the Meeting aware that it speaks not only through its actions but also through its failure to act? "

“Do you make time for meditation, prayer and worship? Do you read the Bible, the writings of Friends, and other inspirational works, seeking new light? Do you regularly seek God’s guidance? Are you open to guidance and support and do you give thanks for them? Do you share your spiritual insights with others and willingly receive from them in turn?”

" Do you live in accordance with your spiritual convictions? Do you seek employment consistent with your beliefs and in service to society? Do you practice simplicity in speech, dress and manner of living, avoiding wasteful consumption? Are you watchful that your possessions do not rule you? Do you strive to be truthful at all times, avoiding judicial oaths? "

“Do you make your home a place of affection where God’s presence is felt? Do you practice family prayer? Do you share your deepest beliefs and interests with all in the family? Do you grow together through sharing prosperity and adversity? Can you keep a sense of humor and avoid taking yourself too seriously? Do you establish family standards including the mutual obligations of children and adults?”

“Do you respect that of God in every person? Do you search yourself for and strive to eliminate prejudices such as those related to race, religion, gender, age, sexual orientation and economic condition? In what ways do you accept and appreciate differences among your friends and associates? Do you avoid exploiting or manipulating others to accomplish ends, however worthy?”

“Do you, as the way opens, share Friends’ principles with non-Friends? Do you witness to your Quaker faith by letting your life speak? Do you make non-Friends welcome in your meetings for worship? Do you find ways to encourage their continued attendance?”

There are many more…we are called continuously to examine our lives and to make ourselves accountable with one another…these “Queries” are as much of a “creed” among us as you will find.

We do take care in leading Seekers to understand the commitment they will be making when they come to be named among us. It can take a year…or a matter of months…it all depends on each individual case…we try to make sure there is no “exclusivity” among us…we hold equality in high esteem…when we need direction…we have a process in place to seek that guidence collectively.
So … these are your Creeds & means to make Confirmation ?

What about the Nicene & Apostle Creeds ? Do they form the basis for your faith ?
 
So … these are your Creeds & means to make Confirmation ?

What about the Nicene & Apostle Creeds ? Do they form the basis for your faith ?
No, these are not “creeds”…they are the closest thing to a “creed” we use…The Queries are a device used within the Society of Friends for prompting both corporate and individual self-examination. Quaker’s often use The Queries as a focus for individual and collective meditation, consideration and prayer, guiding Quaker seekers in their search for greater love, truth, and insight into how to serve humanity and live lives that are consistent with their core values. The Queries may change over time, depending on whether they have cultural significance to the group or not…they are not “carved in stone”.

When someone is “convinced” of the Quaker message, they petition the Monthy Meeting to have their names added to our membership list. A “Clearness Committee” is formed to instruct and examine the potential Friend of their commitment to the Quaker way of life. Queries for membership may be utilized in this process…but it is not necessarily so. Once the “Clearness Committe” has received “clearness of the Lord” the name of the potential Friend is placed before the Meeting to decide by prayerful and meditative consensus if this person should be named among us.

He or she is then added to the Monthy Meetings membership rolls.

Friends do not recite pre-made creedal statements…each of us must “mind the Light” and “walk in the Light” individually and in corporate experience seeking “that of God” in one another and in our midst and serving those around us.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top