Any Quakers online ?

[brb3]

Friends do not recite pre-made creedal statements…each of us must “mind the Light” and “walk in the Light” individually and in corporate experience seeking “that of God” in one another and in our midst and serving those around us.

What about the Lord’s Prayer ? Do you reject it as too FORMULAIC ? Is nothing of the Early Church considered sacred and binding by Quakers ?

 

[Abba]

Hello Publisher and every one else reading this thread,

I know we parted ways and it was due to the demand on my time of my duties and responsibilities. However, I get notified each time a new post is made here and I have been keeping up with the thread and have been keeping you in my prayers. It’s Saturday and I have little time to participate.

I think that it would be good to define the words being used to assure that we are talking about the same things. This is important to have a good discussion. If when I use the word ‘orange’ I really mean ‘apple’ but the person I am speaking with thinks that I really do mean orange then the discussion is not healthy nor logical. Why even bother to communicate?

Student09 made a good and valid point. I think that we should follow important words and names with a definition in parentheses. Once we know what you mean by the word ‘orange’ and you know what we mean by our use of the word orange then we can stop the definitions in parentheses. This way we are all clear about what is being discussed. Due to this lack of clarity and confusion brb3’s last post is to ask you about the Our Father. According to what I have been reading on Quaker theology, the Our Father is the least of your concerns. Correct? But, that question has been posed because it has not been made clear due to the confusion caused by using words with different meanings. For instance, when I use the word ‘Bible’ I mean [Sacred Scripture, Holy Scripture, the writings of the Bible were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as Sacred Scripture these writings nourish our Soul, the writings is good to guide us and correct our ways, etc…, etc…]. But, when you use the word Bible you are referring to these writings as inspirational as you work your own salvation without the need of Jesus, who is only another ‘inspiration’ to a Quaker who is working out his own salvation. So, I think that it will be good to define the typical words used in a religious discussion, such as; Bible, Jesus, God, etc…

All this brings to mind the church of Laodecia because the Quakers have no need of Jesus to work out their salvation. They are self sufficient. It appears to me that the Quakers are committing the Pelagian heresy to which Saint Augustine wrote an excellent response. clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/EN/byh.htm

I think it will be interesting to discuss the theological understanding of George Fox the founder of the Quakers. His specific deduction etc…

May the Peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you and May Our Blessed Mother Mary protect you and guide you to her son,

Abba

p.s. When I use the name ‘Jesus’ I do not mean an image created by Almighty ‘God’ that floated around the earth for 33 years and will at the end of time be consumed by the Almighty ‘God’. I mean the one described in the Catholic Creed which you are familiar with and the second Person of the Trinity, etc… The Apostles were not simply human beings working out their own salvation but were elected by Our Lord Jesus to preach and do many other things, etc…

 

[Abba]

P.p.s.

I do not have the same reaction to religions that do not have Jesus in their faith and do not claim to be christians nor use the Bible, such as for instance - the Buddhist, as I do to the ones that claim to be christian. I am more at peace with a Buddhist. We are clear - they are not Christians. But, with a Mormon and now with a Quaker, the reaction is different. The Mormons, once denounced as not being Christians, changed their church name from The Mormon Church to The Church of Jesus Christ of the Ladder Day Saints. The name of the Church does not make them Christians but it does serve to deceive. I hope the Quakers do not change their Church name and leave Jesus and the Bible totally out of their faith.

Jesus is not a zero to the left, as a Dominican would put it. Jesus no es un zero a la izquierda/

 

[JVD]

P.p.s.

I do not have the same reaction to religions that do not have Jesus in their faith and do not claim to be christians nor use the Bible, such as for instance - the Buddhist, as I do to the ones that claim to be christian. I am more at peace with a Buddhist. We are clear - they are not Christians. But, with a Mormon and now with a Quaker, the reaction is different. The Mormons, once denounced as not being Christians, changed their church name from The Mormon Church to The Church of Jesus Christ of the Ladder Day Saints. The name of the Church does not make them Christians but it does serve to deceive. I hope the Quakers do not change their Church name and leave Jesus and the Bible totally out of their faith.

Jesus is not a zero to the left, as a Dominican would put it. Jesus no es un zero a la izquierda/

Not to get us off on a tangent but wanted to voice a same opinion about Mormons. What they are doing is absolute and total deceptions - targeting Catholics in particular who are poorly catechized. They start off with the bible and quote a few verses then say Mormons agree with so much of that. But they overload everything with new semantics/meaning. They don’t tell their new recruits that their baptism is entirely different since it does not believe at all in the trinity nor in the eternal uncreated divinity of Jesus. As soon as they get the new recruits comfortable with the social network and support system they slowly ween them off the bible and venture more deeply into the Book of Mormon and the veer changing Disciplines and Doctrines that no one knows who is responsible for changing every time they get criticized for their strange beliefs (polygamy, slavery, USA as promised land etc.). They do not tell anyone that they will NEVER pray to Jesus and are in fact forbidden to do so - even when trying to recruit Christians with a false front. They have completely hijacked Jesus’ name and made it into a corporate logo to present themselves as Chrisitans in a very devious and conscious business and recruitment strategy to expand their presence and acceptance and power and wealth. A total shame that they will all be held accountable for before God’s throne. They think that no one stays in hell and that eventually one can work their way out of hell. I fear many knowledgeable Mormons who teach this man-made gospel will find themselves in Hell testing that theory about being able to get out of hell.

James

 

[brb3]

Hello Publisher and every one else reading this thread,

I think it will be interesting to discuss the theological understanding of George Fox the founder of the Quakers. His specific deduction etc…

Quakers believe in Universal Salvation. Publisher has brought this up earlier. The problem is this. While some scriptures can be read to support this theology, most do not. A merciful God may ultimately decide to save all of his creation … but, we have no bibical grounds to presume this will be the case.

Thus, we have NO AUTHORITY to teach this as an absolute. Indeed, scripture teaches we should have a ‘healthy’ fear/respect of our Creator. “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”. Those who teach universal salvation will quickly loose fear of God, and fail to find wisdom/knowledge of Truth.

This is why Unitarians have no unified beliefs, no CREEDS to be followed, everything is relative. Quakers are in danger of becoming that same Laodicean church, if not already.

 

[4Squarebaby]

One of the problems with trying to have a discussion with Quakers about what they believe is that they have a tendency to privately redefine words so that what you hear is not what they are thinking. If you ask a Quaker, “Do you believe in God?” (some will say yes and some will say no) and they answer yes, you have no way of knowing that what they are thinking of is the same as what you are thinking of when you say “God.” They may be thinking of God as a part of their own minds, or as a feeling, or as an ideal that humans need but that doesn’t exist in objective actuality. Same with “Christ.”

So instead you have to ask them, “Do you believe in an all-powerful personal God who created everything? Do you believe in the Trinity? Do you believe Jesus Christ is one of the three Persons of the Trinity who became incarnate as a man in the year 0 A.D.?”

Maybe Publisher could answer some of these questions.

Over on a board dedicated to a science fiction TV show and series of movies from the 60s, 80s, and 90s, something to do with some kind of Enterprise, there is a recent thread of an atheist fighting with his ex wife because she was starting to take their child to church.

It seems there were no atheist meetings near him and one of many suggestions was any unprogrammed Friends meetings in his area. It seems that some Friends are Christian and others are not just as there are “Cultural Christians” of other denominations Muslims who drink and don’t pray towards Mecca five times a day and Catholics who only enter a church to baptise their children but miss all other “obligatory” days

 

[Student09]

Over on a board dedicated to a science fiction TV show and series of movies from the 60s, 80s, and 90s, something to do with some kind of Enterprise, there is a recent thread of an atheist fighting with his ex wife because she was starting to take their child to church.

It seems there were no atheist meetings near him and one of many suggestions was any unprogrammed Friends meetings in his area. It seems that some Friends are Christian and others are not just as there are “Cultural Christians” of other denominations Muslims who drink and don’t pray towards Mecca five times a day and Catholics who only enter a church to baptise their children but miss all other “obligatory” days

It’s not equivalent. You can be a nominal Catholic but that’s just it: you are nominal. But you can be a practicing Quaker and be totally accepted as fully Quaker, while believing and proclaiming that there is no God and that Jesus Christ was a fraud. You can go to all the worship/business meetings and you can go to the major annual Quaker conference and fit right in at the group “Nontheist Friends” that they have there. If anyone suggested that as a confirmed atheist you were only nominally a Quaker, the person who suggested that would be accused of being intolerant and narrow-minded.

That said, you can theoretically be a Quaker and believe in God and the divinity of Christ in a traditional sense, but you would not be considered any more Quaker than the atheist.

 

[jewells17]

Google…“Quakers going Pagan”…and read this article. I hope this movement is not successful…the Quakerism of George Fox was primitive Christianity revived and Leonard Kenworhty wrote a wonderful book about this. Please pray about this article because it is deceptive to join something you know you don’t believe in…just to take it over from within. I have seen this happen. Please pray a rosary for this situation. Peace be with you all!

 

[brb3]

Google…“Quakers going Pagan”…and read this article.

“We are an easily acculturated movement,” M. Massey [conservative Quaker, Omaha,NE] says, explaining that Quakers’ egalitarian, non-creedal tradition makes it very susceptible to outside influences. “But Quakerism has become, on the liberal end, an indefinable refuge for people who regard themselves as mystics or experientially religious and have problems with sources of authority. … … makes it prone to dissolution. Nevertheless, it would be UN-QUAKERLY to try to halt the process.”

 

[Ceil-1]

Shakers get their name from a characteristic ritual “quaking” occuring during trance-like states during certain “worship” meetings. They also lived in community, did not have children (but would adopt), and many other monk-like behaviors.

I had been told they were a spin off of the Quakers. Do you know that to be true?

I find it ironic that Quakers, Shakers, Mormons, JW’s, Spiritualists, and seveal New Age sects, as well as the Secular Humanist movement all originated in the Central/Western New York area and Pennsylvania. I have heard it described as “The Psychic Corridor”. I find that to be an interesting coincidence.

Since proponents of these religious systems are so outwardly kind, I can see how it would decieve a person into thinking they have found the Way. I wonder if this is what Jesus meant when He said that these false teachings will threaten to decieve even the elect, if that were possible.

False religions seemhave these things in common:

1. Denial of the Divinity of Christ.
2. Reliance on self for salvation.
3. Salvation can only be achieved by gaining occult knowledge which only the system in question is capable of imparting.

 

[Student09]

Shakers get their name from a characteristic ritual “quaking” occuring during trance-like states during certain “worship” meetings. They also lived in community, did not have children (but would adopt), and many other monk-like behaviors.

I had been told they were a spin off of the Quakers. Do you know that to be true?

Yes, it is true.

I find it ironic that Quakers, Shakers, Mormons, JW’s, Spiritualists, and seveal New Age sects, as well as the Secular Humanist movement all originated in the Central/Western New York area and Pennsylvania.

That’s actually not true. The Quakers originated in Britain and I believe the Shakers also had their origin in Britain (not sure), and later moved to America in part because of religious persecution from Protestants. Quakers and Roman Catholics were actually being persecuted in England at the same time, albeit for different reasons.

Since proponents of these religious systems are so outwardly kind, I can see how it would decieve a person into thinking they have found the Way.

Some of them are very kind, some are not, they are humans like the rest of us. You should read the polemics written by the early Quakers … lol.

 

[JVD]

That’s actually not true. The Quakers originated in Britain and I believe the Shakers also had their origin in Britain (not sure), and later moved to America in part because of religious persecution from Protestants. Quakers and Roman Catholics were actually being persecuted in England at the same time, albeit for different reasons.

Sounds like some of the die-hard Druids unable to gain employment and escape persecution of the Anglicans simply relocated.

James

 

[JVD]

“We are an easily acculturated movement,” M. Massey [conservative Quaker, Omaha,NE] says, explaining that Quakers’ egalitarian, non-creedal tradition makes it very susceptible to outside influences. “But Quakerism has become, on the liberal end, an indefinable refuge for people who regard themselves as mystics or experientially religious and have problems with sources of authority. … … makes it prone to dissolution. Nevertheless, it would be UN-QUAKERLY to try to halt the process.”

Quite a clever business plan to guarantee perpetual existence - no one around with any authority to sign off on the dissolution of corporation or to take any votes on it.

“All those in favor of disillusionment say ‘Aye’”. :Cricketsounds:
“All those apposed say ‘Nay’ ?” :Cricketsounds:

The crickets have it - its business as usual.

Motion to adjourn – all those opposed say “nay”, :Cricketsounds:

“See you next week same time, place and agenda we’ve had for 30 years…”

James

 

[Abba]

Hello brb3,

Quakers believe in Universal Salvation. Publisher has brought this up earlier. The problem is this. While some scriptures can be read to support this theology, most do not. A merciful God may ultimately decide to save all of his creation … but, we have no bibical grounds to presume this will be the case. .

As a Catholic, I do not believe in Universal Salvation. There are things that God has left as mysteries and others that we can come to understand fully and others that we can understand to a certain degree. We as human beings must understand that we cannot completely figure God out and that additionally, out of respect to our human dignity and free will God has left some things unknown or to be partially understood and others to be fully understood. As a human being I can stop to think full of compassion for those who are in Hell and wonder why God who is LOVE would permit eternal damnation. I do not know but, I know that the Catholic Church affirms that this is the way it is and I humbly follow her teachings. If I see black, to paraphrase Saint Ignatius of Loyola, and the Church says it is white then I see white. I am a blind sheep and I allow myself to be guided by Holy Mother Church. I am obedient to the teachings of the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church. Jesus was obedient to the Father. Was he not? We need to be obedient also. This obedience is actually liberating. The Quakers have a problem with authority. Why should we imitators of Our Lord Jesus Christ have a problem?

I believe that Our Holy Mother Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and as such brings to light scripture to us. Do you see how people read but do not understand? In much the same way we ourselves read and do not understand certain things that can be understood and seen in scripture. The Catholic Church illuminates scripture for us. I do not recall right now the occasion where someone asked Paul to explain scripture to him and Paul did. My Paul in this respect is the Catholic Church to whom I recourse for her loving guidance. With scripture it is not every man for himself. God left his Church which is guided by the Holy Spirit and his sheperds to take care of us and feed us and guide us to eternal salvation. John 21:15-18.

I believe that God gives us the Grace of understanding and coming to know him as we nourish our faith by imitating him and following his teachings. To say that, we ourselves as individuals need to be openned to grow spiritually and additionally allow ourselves to be guided by Holy Mother Church which is guided by the Holy Spirit. Proof of this is the doctrine of the Trinity which is not obvious to many in scripture but is brought to light by the Catholic Church. The fact that Mary is the Mother of God is not obvious to many from scripture but this Truth is illuminated by the Catholic Church in Sacred Scripture. The Eucharist is another that is not obvious to many but is brought to light by the traditional knowledge and wisdom of the Catholic Church.

Thus, we have NO AUTHORITY to teach this as an absolute. Indeed, scripture teaches we should have a ‘healthy’ fear/respect of our Creator. “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”. Those who teach universal salvation will quickly loose fear of God, and fail to find wisdom/knowledge of Truth.

The Catholic Church has AUTHORITY to teach and guide and in this matter does so thus:

Cathechism of the Catholic Church
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."617
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:619

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.620
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm
]

May the Peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you,

Abba

 

[Abba]

Not to get us off on a tangent but wanted to voice a same opinion about Mormons. What they are doing is absolute and total deceptions - targeting Catholics in particular who are poorly catechized. They start off with the bible and quote a few verses then say Mormons agree with so much of that. But they overload everything with new semantics/meaning. They don’t tell their new recruits that their baptism is entirely different since it does not believe at all in the trinity nor in the eternal uncreated divinity of Jesus. As soon as they get the new recruits comfortable with the social network and support system they slowly ween them off the bible and venture more deeply into the Book of Mormon and the veer changing Disciplines and Doctrines that no one knows who is responsible for changing every time they get criticized for their strange beliefs (polygamy, slavery, USA as promised land etc.). They do not tell anyone that they will NEVER pray to Jesus and are in fact forbidden to do so - even when trying to recruit Christians with a false front. They have completely hijacked Jesus’ name and made it into a corporate logo to present themselves as Chrisitans in a very devious and conscious business and recruitment strategy to expand their presence and acceptance and power and wealth. A total shame that they will all be held accountable for before God’s throne. They think that no one stays in hell and that eventually one can work their way out of hell. I fear many knowledgeable Mormons who teach this man-made gospel will find themselves in Hell testing that theory about being able to get out of hell.

James

Excellent post James. Some of the sentences hit me like whips on my back and daggers in my heart. I have seen the damage the Mormons can do.

There is a small village that I know of in the Dominican Republic near the capital as my mother bought a ranch there. The people needed to walk forty five minutes to the nearest church. This made going to church difficult for many. Isolated and lacking catechism they were vulnerable. The Mormon church started doing what they do there and converted many(even giving the hope of a visa as it is an ‘American’ sect). Once, after five years of not visiting there, I went and was shocked and hurt to witness the damage. They build these temples that looks like they are to serve as military security if ever needed. In the front yard the children play and it hurts me so very much. I think of their pious grandparents and great-grandparents and see them deprived of the Eucharist and the Sacraments. After seeing this, I went to the Cathedral of the region and asked if a chapel can be build there to service the Catholics in that area, many of whom are very poor and cannot afford transportation to attend Mass in town etc… The priest I spoke with told me that he is aware of the damage the Mormons are doing and has witnessed much in South America. He told me that the Catholic Church does not have the money to build chapels etc…

Currently, I am at the drawing board with some clergy and laity and we are establishing a Catholic organization that will raise the funds to build the chapels need throughout the country and contribute to evangelizing the Dominican people and helping the poor(including providing a forum on our website). The organization will help worldwide in times of disaster but our focus is on the Dominican people. So, your post - hit home.

You write well. May God bless you and may you continue to use your skill for his service.

Peace,

Abba

P.s. I hope can all excuse my sloppy writing. For one, I know that the Quakers was started in the 1600 but as I was typing I just typed 1700 and I should make an effort to write more exact. The same for the ‘paraphrase’ of Saint Ignatius of Loyola.

I also want to clarify in case there is a need for anyone, that it is not that the Catholic Church is teaching Hell so that people out of fear will convert etc… The Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit is teaching it because it is true. God would not deceive us. Jesus is the TRUTH.

To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it, believing that between Christ our Lord, the Bridegroom, and the Church, His Bride, there is the same Spirit which governs and directs us for the salvation of our souls. Because by the same Spirit and our Lord Who gave the ten Commandments, our holy Mother the Church is directed and governed. Saint Ignatius of Loyola.

 

[Publisher]

In reference to the poster who mentioned what they heard in Meeting as to the resurrection and divinity of Jesus of Nazareth…I have no doubt such a statement was made…I have been in Meeting where such things too were said…everyone in Meeting is allowed to give “vocal ministry”. Each of us is called to “listen” to one another. Even those whose spiritual lives may not reflect what we have come to understand…we are to “listen” with open hearts and minds. I also have been in Meeting where a person spoke…rather abnoxiously…and was told to “stand down” by “weighty Friends” who had the care of the Meeting that First Day.

When a group such as the Society of Friends believes “that of God” resides within each of us…it is difficult to stop those who “bear the image of God” from speaking…when speaking in Meeting is encouraged. Is there a danger? Yes of course there is…but a greater danger exists in our understanding to NOT allow those whos beliefs are different from us to speak. Friends seek to understand spirituality collectively…we seek to learn from one another…everyone in Meeting has a voice…no one is silenced. It is the responsibility of the “older members” to take some of the younger ones aside and “elder” them. One of the Queries used to foster spiritual formation asks…

**"Do we share our deepest beliefs and values with each other and with our children, while leaving them free to develop as the Spirit may lead them?

“How do we educate our members and attenders about the Bible (especially the teachings of Jesus), other spiritual literature, and the history, principles and practices of Friends?”**

So, yes, something like this could be stated in Meeting…and in the Meeting I attend when such statements are made…the person is “eldered” by another Friend…always encouraged to speak what is on their hearts…and together we see Truth.

The Light Within is and has been identified with Jesus of Nazareth…the Living Christ who is in our midst…our Ture Teacher and Guide…our Priest and Minister…the One who’s life affirms God’s astounding love and grace for us…that each of us must use the exact same finite words to explain the Holy Mystery of God in Christ…is not our way…we seek to cultivate in each of our members to seek the Lord for themselves and to gently guide them toward spiritual wholeness.

Concerning the “Lord’s Prayer”…many of us use it and know it by heart…I have been in Meeting where a Friend felt led to speak the prayer…but it is not used in a “ritualistic” sense…but rather as a guide to the form some of our individual prayers should take.

Quakerism is an experiential faith, it is a living faith. We can look to the past to seek to understand how and why those before us believed as they did…but each of us is called to embrace a Living Faith in a Living God…and use each other as a “sounding board”. Not all of us are at the same point…but being “new” doesn’t mean that they have nothing to offer or teach…and it is the duty of older Friends to gently guide our younger members into a deeper, richer, more full faith experience.

Our ways seem strange to many…especially those who embrace an heirarchal system of church government…but we believe it is also our strength…each of us is called to participation…there aren’t too many Friends who are not involved in one way or another…each of us is given the “care of the Meeting” at one time or another…to gauge the “Sense of the Meeting” and decide it is time to close…our Meeting ends when the one given “care of the Meeting” turns to the person next to him/her and shakes their hand…then everyone shakes hands and Meeting for worship is over…then we have announcements or a singing time…or move into the fellowship hall for coffee and or tea.

 

[Student09]

In reference to the poster who mentioned what they heard in Meeting as to the resurrection and divinity of Jesus of Nazareth…I have no doubt such a statement was made…I have been in Meeting where such things too were said…everyone in Meeting is allowed to give “vocal ministry”. Each of us is called to “listen” to one another. Even those whose spiritual lives may not reflect what we have come to understand…we are to “listen” with open hearts and minds. .

Yes, I understand that that is the approach. That’s part of why I finally left the Quakers. Was it because I don’t respect the fact that other people have different spiritual beliefs than I do? NO - I left because I needed a safe place in which to seek and worship God. I did not feel safe at Quaker meetings, not at all. It got to the point where after every meeting, I would go home and cry.

I say this only because Quakers pride themselves on being a safe and comfortable place for spiritual seekers. I was a spiritual seeker during my time with the Quakers, but it was NOT a safe and comfortable place for me. Just offering you another perspective.

 

[Publisher]

Yes, I understand that that is the approach. That’s part of why I finally left the Quakers. Was it because I don’t respect the fact that other people have different spiritual beliefs than I do? NO - I left because I needed a safe place in which to seek and worship God. I did not feel safe at Quaker meetings, not at all. It got to the point where after every meeting, I would go home and cry.

I say this only because Quakers pride themselves on being a safe and comfortable place for spiritual seekers. I was a spiritual seeker during my time with the Quakers, but it was NOT a safe and comfortable place for me. Just offering you another perspective.

I understand. There have been many Seekers who never become comfortable with Meeting…for me the Living Silence has been a refuge and a balm to my soul as I leave behind the sounds and voices of the world and join with others in seeking to commune with the Presence…for me it is challenging to recognize and hear the voice of “that of God” in the “vocal ministry” that some others would bring…but that is also the joy of acknowleding that God is Present to teach us…and because it is challenging at times to “hear the voice of Christ” in what others would say…there is also a reward as well.

When I have attended a liturgical group for worship…or an evangelical worship service…I always leave it feeling feeling that something is missing…for me the experience is exchanging one set of “noise” for another…in other worship settings I never seem to be able to Center fully…there is always a song that needs to be sung…or a prayer that needs to be spoken…or I’m standing…or kneeling…or XYZ…my heart rarely is filled with the awareness of being in the Presence of God as it is in Meeting.

 

[Publisher]

Quakers believe in Universal Salvation. Publisher has brought this up earlier. The problem is this. While some scriptures can be read to support this theology, most do not. A merciful God may ultimately decide to save all of his creation … but, we have no bibical grounds to presume this will be the case.

Thus, we have NO AUTHORITY to teach this as an absolute. Indeed, scripture teaches we should have a ‘healthy’ fear/respect of our Creator. “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”. Those who teach universal salvation will quickly loose fear of God, and fail to find wisdom/knowledge of Truth.

This is why Unitarians have no unified beliefs, no CREEDS to be followed, everything is relative. Quakers are in danger of becoming that same Laodicean church, if not already.

No not all Friends belive in “universal salvation”. It is not taught as an “absolute”.

It is a “characterization” on your part that those of us who do accept universal salvation no longer have an “awe filled respect for the Eternal God”…simply not true…I’m sure some Friends may not have a “respect for God”…but then so too do some Catholics fall within that same trap…do they not?

One of the “myths” many believe about Catholicism is that Catholics can do what ever they want no matter how sinful or evil as long as they go to confession…see how inaccurate such characterizations are? They do not speak from that Center of Truth and Light…something we all should avoid.

 

[jewells17]

Yes, I understand that that is the approach. That’s part of why I finally left the Quakers. Was it because I don’t respect the fact that other people have different spiritual beliefs than I do? NO - I left because I needed a safe place in which to seek and worship God. I did not feel safe at Quaker meetings, not at all. It got to the point where after every meeting, I would go home and cry.

I say this only because Quakers pride themselves on being a safe and comfortable place for spiritual seekers. I was a spiritual seeker during my time with the Quakers, but it was NOT a safe and comfortable place for me. Just offering you another perspective.

I can’t get over your posting. It is exactly what I went through. It took me a long time to finally resign and make my way home to the Catholic Church.