Any suggestions to refute atheism

[buffalo]

Sideline - you asked for it. And the odds of these prophecies being fulfilled in just one man are similar to going into the Sahara blindfolded and pick up the only red colored grain of sand in the whole Sahara on the very first try, not once but twice.

 

[Exalt]

Sideline - you asked for it. And the odds of these prophecies being fulfilled in just one man are similar to going into the Sahara blindfolded and pick up the only red colored grain of sand in the whole Sahara on the very first try, not once but twice.

I’ll go through some of these later, but most are either really vague in the Old Testament or are obviously fabricated in the New Testament.

 

[Sideline]

Sideline - you asked for it. And the odds of these prophecies being fulfilled in just one man are similar to going into the Sahara blindfolded and pick up the only red colored grain of sand in the whole Sahara on the very first try, not once but twice.

Firstly, prophesies by definition have come before the event. So any prophesies listed in NT books fail. It’s easy to predict the news the day after it happens. It’s somewhat harder to predict it the day before.

Secondly, most of these are random quotes that are not intended to be prophesies. They merely describe things that can be attributed, vaguely, to Jesus.

In other words, this is meaningless drivel. Show me a quote that claims specific knowledge, and was believed to be a messianic prophecy before Jesus was born.

 

[buffalo]

Firstly, prophesies by definition have come before the event. So any prophesies listed in NT books fail. It’s easy to predict the news the day after it happens. It’s somewhat harder to predict it the day before.

Secondly, most of these are random quotes that are not intended to be prophesies. They merely describe things that can be attributed, vaguely, to Jesus.

In other words, this is meaningless drivel. Show me a quote that claims specific knowledge, and was believed to be a messianic prophecy before Jesus was born.

Huh??? The prophecies all were at least 300 years before His birth and were in the OT not the NT.

 

[Sideline]

Huh??? The prophecies all were at least 300 years before His birth and were in the OT not the NT.

Sorry, the way some of the OT references were before the “prophecy” and some were after it, I didn’t notice all of them.

Still, this is absolute drivel. These are bits and pieces of verses taken out of context, and don’t pretend to be prophecies at all. This is called cherry picking. Taking bits of other works trying to fit them into some sort of pattern.

I think it’s hysterical that anyone would take this seriously, especially Catholics, who have had a reputation of considering Bible verses in context. It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.

Have you ever noticed that everyone is convinced that Jesus fulfilling this is as unlikely as someone finding something red in Texas, but can’t seem to get their story straight about whether it is a grain of sand or a silver dollar, or whether they should cover the State or just line the perimeter.

Did you think about those “prophesies” at all? Did you check a single one of these to see if there was any truth to any of the claims?

“I will put enmity between you and the woman between your offspring and hers” means that Jesus is going to be born of a virgin? Are you freaking kidding me? That wasn’t a tip off about how stupid this website is?

Tell me, is this even the teaching of the Church? Let me answer that for you, “No!”

You have no idea how damaging it is when Catholic resort to stupid arguments that are obviously false. If you want to win over atheists honesty is your best tool. You will win over the odd idiot with false information, but you are going to be way more successful if you just be honest with people about what is true about the religion for you.

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

Firstly, prophesies by definition have come before the event. So any prophesies listed in NT books fail. It’s easy to predict the news the day after it happens. It’s somewhat harder to predict it the day before.

Secondly, most of these are random quotes that are not intended to be prophesies. They merely describe things that can be attributed, vaguely, to Jesus.

In other words, this is meaningless drivel. Show me a quote that claims specific knowledge, and was believed to be a messianic prophecy before Jesus was born.

Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53 are just two examples with clear messianic references and show that a transcendent source has communicated to humanity. These books are found in the Dead Sea scrolls and are known to have been composed during David’s reign 1000 BC and in the 700’s BC, respectively. Psalms 22 has the piercing of hands and feet, crucifixion that occurred in the 1st century AD, as well as the words of the scoffers, recorded in Matthew’s account of the crucifixion. Then in Isaiah 53, we have the fact that the one by whose punishment gives us peace, is buried with the rich in his death, then Matthew’s account has a rich man Joseph of Arimathea place Jesus’ body in his own new tomb. None of these fulfillments state it was done to fulfill a prophesy but are incidental details in the narrative.

PIERCING OF HANDS
Psalm 22:16
“Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.”

John 20:25
But he (Thomas) said to them, “Unless I see the **nail marks in his hands **and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.”

WORDS OF SCOFFERS
Psalm 22:8
“He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.”

Matt. 27:43
“**He trusts in God. Let God rescue him **now if he wants him…”

BURIED IN TOMB OF THE RICH
Isaiah 53:9
“He was **assigned a grave **with the wicked, and with the rich in his death…”

Matt.27:57-60
“As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and **placed it in his own new tomb **that he had cut out of the rock.”

 

[buffalo]

You have no idea how damaging it is when Catholic resort to stupid arguments that are obviously false. If you want to win over atheists honesty is your best tool. You will win over the odd idiot with false information, but you are going to be way more successful if you just be honest with people about what is true about the religion for you.

The grace for an atheist to find faith comes from God alone. All we can do here is teach the truths of the Church.

you - “I will put enmity between you and the woman between your offspring and hers” means that Jesus is going to be born of a virgin? Are you freaking kidding me? That wasn’t a tip off about how stupid this website is?

Tell me, is this even the teaching of the Church? Let me answer that for you, “No!”

Buffalo - This is what the Church teaches

 

[miguel]

…So I should just believe anyone who turns up and claims to be appointed by God?

That’s actually the opposite of what I said.

…Or who has been appointed by any organisation that claims to have been appointed by God?

No, not just any organization.

 

[Sideline]

The grace for an atheist to find faith comes from God alone. All we can do here is teach the truths of the Church.

you - “I will put enmity between you and the woman between your offspring and hers” means that Jesus is going to be born of a virgin? Are you freaking kidding me? That wasn’t a tip off about how stupid this website is?

Tell me, is this even the teaching of the Church? Let me answer that for you, “No!”

Buffalo - This is what the Church teaches

Now I suggest you what you posted on Church teaching and compare it to the tripe that that was posted earlier.

 

[Marcus_Red]

Hi Daniel,

Not so. What convinces me of God are the hundreds of detailed messianic prophecies made hundreds of years before Jesus’ birth and recorded as fulfilled by credible eyewitnesses. If interested, I can give you a list.

The link would have done fine …

hopeofisrael.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=49&Itemid=27

… but thanks anyway.

The thread is about suggestions to refute atheism. How does a set of prophecies (let’s be generous, and concede that there might be one in amongst that lot) about a messianic leader for a bunch of tribesmen who wanted rid of the Romans, demonstrate that God exists?

Regards,

Marcus

 

[mich2]

How to refute atheism?

Show us a god.

It seems that the question doesn't directly asks for proof in the existance of a God but proof for the non-existance of atheism. The question I would first ask is "what is atheism"?
Atheism is not the rejection of God, but is supose to imply a natural non-notion of any God. Since God is simply a dreamed up, non existing figment of the imagination, it stands to reason that some humans must have failed to invent such a concept. .

So far, the history of humanity seems to point to natural atheism as being non existant. If natural atheism doesn’t exist,then, how can we explain scientifically or psychologically this need within humanity to invent a creator?
The idea postulated by geneticist Dean Hamer about the God gene simply begs the question “why is this gene there in the first place”?
One could ask if the eyes could have evolved without the existance of light. While some might believe that the eyes could have indeed evolved without light, I personally doubt this hypothesis very much.

Andre

 

[Sideline]

…how can we explain scientifically or psychologically this need within humanity to invent a creator?

Belief in the supernatural often satisfies a need in individuals to attempt to control things over which they have no control. We are also curious creatures, and have been known to invent explanations to things that we don’t understand. Having a common belief structure also builds group unity. We are social creatures and things that build group unity are adaptive. We also have an imagination, which allows us to create or work toward things that do not already exist.

The idea postulated by geneticist Dean Hamer about the God gene simply begs the question “why is this gene there in the first place”?

This is only one person’s speculation, and there are really good reasons to suppose this is not the case.

One could ask if the eyes could have evolved without the existance of light. While some might believe that the eyes could have indeed evolved without light, I personally doubt this hypothesis very much.

One would not have developed eyes without light, but it is entirely possible for them to experience of something that doesn’t exist. Children fear monsters under the bed without their being actual monsters.

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

The thread is about suggestions to refute atheism. How does a set of prophecies (let’s be generous, and concede that there might be one in amongst that lot) about a messianic leader for a bunch of tribesmen who wanted rid of the Romans, demonstrate that God exists?

The prophecies were made in the name of God and claim to be FROM God. So if the prophecies are true, then it is evidence of God.

 

[Sideline]

The prophecies were made in the name of God and claim to be FROM God. So if the prophecies are true, then it is evidence of God.

You do realize that you still haven’t given a single example of a prophesy that was claimed to be a messianic prophesy from before the birth of Jesus, right?

Do you have any evidence for the claim that people thought that Psalm 22 was supposed to be a messianic prophesy before Mathew claimed it after Jesus had died?

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

You do realize that you still haven’t given a single example of a prophesy that was claimed to be a messianic prophesy from before the birth of Jesus, right?

Do you have any evidence for the claim that people thought that Psalm 22 was supposed to be a messianic prophesy before Mathew claimed it after Jesus had died?

The messianic prophecies are verified not because they say “this is a messianic prophecy” but because they contain details given long before Jesus’ birth that are recorded as fulfilled by credible eyewitnesses and in which the recorded fulfillments contain the details of the prophecies. The prophets who spoke of these things did not know the time and circumstances of which they wrote concerning the Christ.

1 Peter 1:1012 “Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, **searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances **to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.”

 

[Sideline]

The messianic prophecies are verified not because they say “this is a messianic prophecy” but because they contain details given long before Jesus’ birth that are recorded as fulfilled by credible eyewitnesses and in which the recorded fulfillments contain the details of the prophecies. The prophets who spoke of these things did not know the time and circumstances of which they wrote concerning the Christ.

So, you don’t have any instances of true prophecies then? How disappointing. What you have described above is no better than coincidence, and most likely fraud.

Aren’t there any good arguments for faith around? There must be some, surely?

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

So, you don’t have any instances of true prophecies then? How disappointing. What you have described above is no better than coincidence, and most likely fraud.

Aren’t there any good arguments for faith around? There must be some, surely?

There are too many details and too many instances by too many witnesses for fraud or coincidence to be involved.

Here are a few examples I gave earlier that you have yet to explain away:

Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53 are just two examples with clear messianic references and show that a transcendent source has communicated to humanity. These books are found in the Dead Sea scrolls and are known to have been composed during David’s reign 1000 BC and in the 700’s BC, respectively. Psalms 22 has the piercing of hands and feet, crucifixion that occurred in the 1st century AD, as well as the words of the scoffers, recorded in Matthew’s account of the crucifixion. Then in Isaiah 53, we have the fact that the one by whose punishment gives us peace, is buried with the rich in his death, then Matthew’s account has a rich man Joseph of Arimathea place Jesus’ body in his own new tomb. None of these fulfillments state it was done to fulfill a prophesy but are incidental details in the narrative.

PIERCING OF HANDS
Psalm 22:16
“Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.”

John 20:25
But he (Thomas) said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.”

WORDS OF SCOFFERS
Psalm 22:8
“He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.”

Matt. 27:43
“He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him…”

BURIED IN TOMB OF THE RICH
Isaiah 53:9
“He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death…”

Matt.27:57-60
“As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock.”

 

[Sideline]

There are too many details and too many instances by too many witnesses for fraud or coincidence to be involved.

Here are a few examples I gave earlier that you have yet to explain away:

Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53 are just two examples with clear messianic references and show that a transcendent source has communicated to humanity.

No, it shows that someone took a couple of passages out of the Hebrew Bible out of their original context and declared them to be prophecies. Conveniently, the person who declared that the prophecies were fulfilled was able to write the story in such a way that it does look like a fulfilled prophecy.

Look at all of the other psalms that in no way refer to Jesus. No one ever said that psalm 22 was supposed to be about the messiah until after Jesus was dead and the details of his death were being circulated. Your explanation doesn’t fit the facts nearly so well as someone changing the story to mimic the psalm.

These books are found in the Dead Sea scrolls and are known to have been composed during David’s reign 1000 BC and in the 700’s BC, respectively. Psalms 22 has the piercing of hands and feet, crucifixion that occurred in the 1st century AD, as well as the words of the scoffers, recorded in Matthew’s account of the crucifixion.

It was about events entirely unconnected to the crucifixion, but just happened to fit the reference to pierced hands and feet. The gospel writer was then free to add details to make it fit the psalm closer. That isn’t miraculous.

Then in Isaiah 53, we have the fact that the one by whose punishment gives us peace, is buried with the rich in his death, then Matthew’s account has a rich man Joseph of Arimathea place Jesus’ body in his own new tomb.

He was also supposed to be ugly (no mention of that in the NT), have offspring (again no mention in the NT), and have his grave with the wicked (no mention of that in the NT). So your prophecy is 1 for 4. That’s pretty… lame. You’d have thought they would have worked harder on that one.

Here’s a question: Why does your God speak in convoluted and vague riddles?

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

He was also supposed to be ugly (no mention of that in the NT), have offspring (again no mention in the NT), and have his grave with the wicked (no mention of that in the NT). So your prophecy is 1 for 4. That’s pretty… lame. You’d have thought they would have worked harder on that one.

Here’s a question: Why does your God speak in convoluted and vague riddles?

The fact some details are not mentioned in the NT lends even more credibility to the NT record. But he did have offspring in the millions of people who have been born again unto God. What are some “convoluted and vague riddles”?

 

[Sideline]

The fact some details are not mentioned in the NT lends even more credibility to the NT record. But he did have offspring in the millions of people who have been born again unto God. What are some “convoluted and vague riddles”?

I think it’s amazing that you think that getting something wrong is proof that your theory is right.

But you know what, this conversation is really pointless. You like delusions. I don’t. No point in arguing.

Imagine that you wanted your children to believe that you sacrificed yourself, to yourself, to make up for their sin against you. Now it was vitally important that they believe that you did all of this, or they will die… eternally… which really sucks. And for some reason you can’t, or won’t, directly reveal yourself to everyone… at least in anyway that is independently verifiable.

Wouldn’t you at least… at the very least… make sure that any prophesies that informed your children of what they needed to be on the look out for would be crystal clear, and not some vague, stupid cryptograms like, “he’ll be buried with the rich and the wicked”.

If you think that’s convincing, then fine, you think it’s convincing. I have a bridge I’d like to… no wait… God would like you to buy from me. It’s in the Bible. If you want, I’ll find some verses to prove it to you.