Any word on Sacred Music from the USCCB?

[benedictgal]

I should be getting a call back from the USCCB this afternoon. According to EWTN, Raymond Arroyo should have something about the issue this evening.

ULM, you need to ground yourself in solid Catholic theology. Yes, the thread is not about your moniker, but it seems as though many of your statements arise from that influence.

Why do you have a problem with rubrics? You may not have overtly said "do-it-yourself’ for the Mass, but that is certainly the tone of your posts.

As I said earlier, I didn’t realize that there were many people out there who don’t seem to care about Sacred Music and, perhaps, support some sort of free for all type of music during the Mass. It is indeed a sad day when even this kind of attitude has crept into the bishops’ conference. It’s really upsetting to see them cave into the demands of the NPM and the FDLC because they want to keep the status quo.

I would suggest that you avail yourself of a copy of Liturgicam Authenticam, written at the request of JPII, that is supposed to bring conformity to all texts. This was the document by which the bishops were supposed to base themselve. Because they failed to pass the document by a 2/3 majority, they don’t even have to send it to Rome. What are they trying to hide?

 

[Wolseley]

Let me ask you this, does all spirituality derive from some set of rules? Do you believe in a one-size-fits all model for most to all things in life?

The Church lives in the world, modern or traditional it is a world with many differences in people. No two people have ever been or ever will be alike. Spirituality comes to different people in different ways. Music is one way to bring spirituality across to the people in each parish.

Liturgical music is a different work of art each time. Even if it is the same song, different performers do it in slightly different ways each time. If you look worldwide, the music selection is even more varied than in US.

In all the parishes I have traveled to, I have seen many of the same songs and many different songs performed by different people and different local styles. Yet there is always one constant, people getting some spiritual uplift from the music (even though many in the Midwest hide it well and are not always visibly participating at times).

Music, like the rest of the mass does not fit well into a one-size-fits all model based on one abritary set of rules/personal preferences (e.g. BXVI).

I have yet to hear U2 or any other music of that style in mass. You may find similar styles with more electric guitars at some youth events (e.g. Stubenville summer retreats), yet that is done in good taste.

So, if Rome says, “We should do it this way,” and the local bishop says, “Nah. I don’t like that; instead we’ll do it this way”, that’s fine, because every diocese or parish should be an independant franchise? Everything coming from Rome is merely a suggestion, a “guideline” only, that the local ordinary can accept or reject at his whim?

Thank you, Martin Luther.

Of course, this shouldn’t surprise me, because ever since 1965, that’s precisely what the American bishops have been doing. They substituted Vatican II for a hodgepodge of cobbled-up pseudo-Catholic liberal balderdash and told people it was Vatican II, when in fact, it was no such thing. When Ex Corde Ecclesiae was issued, they solved that sticky problem by simply ignoring it. When Summorum Pontificum came out, they published reams of fables about how priests had to report to the bishops about what they were doing with the TLM, even though the document itself says they need nobody’s permission to celebrate the Latin Mass.

The American bishops have been going their own way, sans Rome, for 40 years. What they are discovering much to their dismay, however, is that now we have a thing called the Internet, filled with the Catholic blogosphere, and Catholics are actually reading the documents issued by Rome, and when the bishops try to pull the usual bait-and-switch nonsense that they’ve been used to for the last four decades, and say, "This is what that document says," they are drastically taken aback when the lay Catholics write them letters saying, “No, it doesn’t; and you, Your Excellency, are in error. Fix it.”

The bishops usually sniff and do what they want anyway, but now they now have the uncomfortable realization that we know what they’re up to, that they are in dissent from Rome, and that we know what Rome is mandating. They don’t have the power to drag us along with their “progressive” agenda any more, because we are no longer falling for it. The days of “cafeteria Catholicism” are numbered, and they know it.

 

[tomarin]

i would like to see an improvement in the music. the liturgical music in my parish is bland and casual, and ever since i attended a latin mass i’ve been acutely aware of how lacking it is in true spirituality.

i’m not a hyper-traditionalist catholic by any means, rather an orthodox catholic with some traditionalist sympathies. but i almost lost my composure the other week when i heard an actual judy collins song (or a sound-alike) being performed during mass. is nothing sacred?

 

[FAB]

Jim, you should be dancing in the aisles right now. From what Adoremus magazine told me, the document failed passage. I guess the OCP and NMP lobby won out.

Now, bear in mind that this is an unconfirmed report. I’m going to call EWTN to get some sort of confirmation. If this is, in fact, the case, then it’s a dark day for those of us who sought some true sacred music reform from the bishops.

:clapping: :dancing: :clapping: :dancing:

 

[benedictgal]

:clapping: :dancing: :clapping: :dancing:

Of course, I would expect that kind of reaction from you.

 

[anamchara]

He has stated that in other threads. It never ceases to amaze me that there are those who just don’t seem to thinik that we need liturgical norms.

You should leave what people say in other threads to those threads. It’s really more charitable. Just my opinion. I didn’t see where anyone thinks we don’t need liturgical norms.

As I write this, One, is playing on my internet radio. That is not even a spiritual song.

 

[TMC]

What is with the accusation? I didn’t read that in his/her post.

Although I don’t agree with her charaterization of my position, it is not an unfair shot given our past conversations.

TMC, Liturgy and Music are very important issues. Even though you don’t seem to believe that the Mass is the source and summiit of the Church’s life (taken directly from the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy), our whole essence flows from it.

When problems arise with the Mass, they bubble and trickle down to everything else in the Church’s existence.

As I am sure you know by now, I take the Mass very seriously and it is a very important issue. The liturgical form of the Mass is also a valid issue, although not as important.

I would hope that we would agree that the following (which are not in any particular order) are each more important than whether “Lord of the Dance” is used at Mass:

Vocations and the priest shortage
The loss of parishoners to evangelical sects
The rising influence of Mormonism and their proselytizing among Catholics
Proper role of the church in politics
The rise of young earth creationism in american politics and religion and its effect on the faith
The influence of prominent evangelicals on catholics, including the rise in “catholic fundamentalists”
Effectively handling the threat of schism from traditionalists and providing pastoral space for them in the Church
Effectively handling the threat of schism from progressives and providing pastoral space for them in the Church
Protecting and enhancing the Church’s message in this age of modern communications.
Reversing the increasing public impression that the Church is bigotted, mean spirited, or hopelessly out of date, and dealing with the decline in faith that impression causes.
Properly ministering to the many american catholics that struggle with the Church’s teachings on sex and sexuality
Discussing and, if necessary, clarifying the recent directions on homosexually oriented candidates for priesthood.
Dealing with and, if possible, reversing the devastating drop in religious vocations of women
Handling the current crisis in care for elderly nuns whose orders cannot take care of them.
Sex abuse scandel
The financial fallout of the sex scandels
The proper role of the laity in managing parish and diocean affairs.

That is a few off the top of my head. Not all of the above are giant or imminent crises, but some of them are. Maybe a few drop down to be no more important than the “Lord of the Dance”, but not many. So I hope the bishops get to talking about musical styles and preferences, because I assume that means that the important issues have been dealt with.

 

[anamchara]

I should be getting a call back from the USCCB this afternoon. According to EWTN, Raymond Arroyo should have something about the issue this evening.

What time is Raymond suppose to be on? I don’t want to miss what comes out of all this.

 

[benedictgal]

What time is Raymond suppose to be on? I don’t want to miss what comes out of all this.

 

[mercygate]

What time is Raymond suppose to be on? I don’t want to miss what comes out of all this.

 

[FAB]

Of course, I would expect that kind of reaction from you.

I sing in the choir, cantor, songlead and play guitar at mass.(Not all at the same time). I have sung what I believe most refer to “sacred music”, the problem is that most of it cannot be sung by the congregation. Just because music was written in the middle ages doesn’t make it sacred. When I look in old song hymnals I find most of the songs were adopted from the protestants.
A good music minister and ministry has a wide range to select from. There is music for each season and in most cases, music that reflect and enhance the readings and message of the day.
As entering into lent, the music is more reflective and somber, as opposed to joyous after Easter. The music is a great help in setting the mood for the celebration. For this to work, the music minister also needs to reflect on the readings, many just don’t, so as a result the music for the liturgy is less than stellar.
Peace,
FAB
“Your word I have treasured in my heart…”
Psalms 119:11

 

[FAB]

Although I don’t agree with her charaterization of my position, it is not an unfair shot given our past conversations.

As I am sure you know by now, I take the Mass very seriously and it is a very important issue. The liturgical form of the Mass is also a valid issue, although not as important.

I would hope that we would agree that the following (which are not in any particular order) are each more important than whether “Lord of the Dance” is used at Mass:

Vocations and the priest shortage
The loss of parishoners to evangelical sects
The rising influence of Mormonism and their proselytizing among Catholics
Proper role of the church in politics
The rise of young earth creationism in american politics and religion and its effect on the faith
The influence of prominent evangelicals on catholics, including the rise in “catholic fundamentalists”
Effectively handling the threat of schism from traditionalists and providing pastoral space for them in the Church
Effectively handling the threat of schism from progressives and providing pastoral space for them in the Church
Protecting and enhancing the Church’s message in this age of modern communications.
Reversing the increasing public impression that the Church is bigotted, mean spirited, or hopelessly out of date, and dealing with the decline in faith that impression causes.
Properly ministering to the many american catholics that struggle with the Church’s teachings on sex and sexuality
Discussing and, if necessary, clarifying the recent directions on homosexually oriented candidates for priesthood.
Dealing with and, if possible, reversing the devastating drop in religious vocations of women
Handling the current crisis in care for elderly nuns whose orders cannot take care of them.
Sex abuse scandel
The financial fallout of the sex scandels
The proper role of the laity in managing parish and diocean affairs.

That is a few off the top of my head. Not all of the above are giant or imminent crises, but some of them are. Maybe a few drop down to be no more important than the “Lord of the Dance”, but not many. So I hope the bishops get to talking about musical styles and preferences, because I assume that means that the important issues have been dealt with.

 

[benedictgal]

I sing in the choir, cantor, songlead and play guitar at mass.(Not all at the same time). I have sung what I believe most refer to “sacred music”, the problem is that most of it cannot be sung by the congregation. Just because music was written in the middle ages doesn’t make it sacred. When I look in old song hymnals I find most of the songs were adopted from the protestants.
.
Peace,
FAB
“Your word I have treasured in my heart…”
Psalms 119:11

That is so not true. The faithful have an easier time singing Pange Lingua, Attende Domine, Creator of the Stars of Night, O Sun of Justice and O Come, O Come Emmanuel. Don’t underestimate the faithful. I used to help our children’s choir and they had a much easier time with the aforementioned hymns than with some of the modern compositions.

You just mentioned the other problem: some of the hymns are adopted from the Protestant tradition and these tend to run contrary to solid Catholic doctrine and liturgical theology. They also run contrary (inclusive of many of the modern hymns) to Liturgicam Authenticam.

Since you are cheering the bishops for their lack of adopting something with teeth, are you also advocating that we sing things that run contrary to Liturgicam Authenticam, the document that the bishops were supposed to have been following in the first place?

 

[benedictgal]

Evidently, neither you nor TMC believe that the Mass is the source and summit of what the Catholic church believes, teaches and lives. Ancient Israel had the same problem. When worship was no longer important to them, Ancient Israel got invaded, sacked and sent into exile. Because we are the New Israel, I’m afraid we’ve adopted our ancestors’ bad habits. Both of you have just made my point.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

I should be getting a call back from the USCCB this afternoon. According to EWTN, Raymond Arroyo should have something about the issue this evening.

ULM, you need to ground yourself in solid Catholic theology. Yes, the thread is not about your moniker, but it seems as though many of your statements arise from that influence.

Why do you have a problem with rubrics? You may not have overtly said "do-it-yourself’ for the Mass, but that is certainly the tone of your posts.

As I said earlier, I didn’t realize that there were many people out there who don’t seem to care about Sacred Music and, perhaps, support some sort of free for all type of music during the Mass. It is indeed a sad day when even this kind of attitude has crept into the bishops’ conference. It’s really upsetting to see them cave into the demands of the NPM and the FDLC because they want to keep the status quo.

I would suggest that you avail yourself of a copy of Liturgicam Authenticam, written at the request of JPII, that is supposed to bring conformity to all texts. This was the document by which the bishops were supposed to base themselve. Because they failed to pass the document by a 2/3 majority, they don’t even have to send it to Rome. What are they trying to hide?

I “have a problem with the rubrics”? I am not sure where that came from.

Not to diverge too much, but “Catholic Theology” is pretty broad. There are thousands of books out there with millions of different interpretations on all parts of Theology, it is far from a cut and dry matter.

Because of this, the one to three sources you mention are just a few opinions on this topic which is alway ongoing.

Let’s briefly compare church governance with nation governance. In the US we have hundreds of laws that come out of DC. In the church we have hundreds of laws that come out of Rome. Are all national laws followed all the time? Of course not, and there are many local variances down at the state and local government levels. The same holds true with church governance. Rome comes up with a rule, but due to the variation in countries and dioceses variations appear, but does not make them incorrect.

Music Ministry’s most powerful effect is to bring out spirituality in people. Music always has been and always been an art form, which by its nature makes it impossible to put a hard and rigid rule set on.

I would think that JPII’s document has been approved in many countries but that does not always mean rigid changes are made at the local level. Just as local government is the most visible form of government in each person’s day to day life, the local parish is the most visible part in most Catholics’ lives. Adaptions for local or regional culture does not mean the “norms” are not being followed or any less “invalid”. There are rules on paper and the application of rules in real life and they are two totally different things.

 

[FAB]

You just mentioned the other problem: some of the hymns are adopted from the Protestant tradition and these tend to run contrary to solid Catholic doctrine and liturgical theology. They also run contrary (inclusive of many of the modern hymns) to Liturgicam Authenticam.

Since you are cheering the bishops for their lack of adopting something with teeth, are you also advocating that we sing things that run contrary to Liturgicam Authenticam, the document that the bishops were supposed to have been following in the first place?

Most of the music in today’s hymnals are on sound Catholic Doctrin (older hymnals were of what I was speaking) and to not run contrary to Liturgicam Authenticam. Perhaps your parish just needs to get some updated versions.

 

[TMC]

Evidently, neither you nor TMC believe that the Mass is the source and summit of what the Catholic church believes, teaches and lives. Ancient Israel had the same problem. When worship was no longer important to them, Ancient Israel got invaded, sacked and sent into exile. Because we are the New Israel, I’m afraid we’ve adopted our ancestors’ bad habits. Both of you have just made my point.

We have had this discussion before, and we will never agree. But don’t forget that scrupulous adherence to form of worship without attention to the spiritual needs of individuals was another error committed by Ancient Israel. Isaiah rebuked this practice, as did Christ.

The form of worship means something, but the meaning of the worship trumps the form. The form can change and has changed many times in the history of the Church. The meaning that stands behind the form and informs the form does not change. Our dispute has always been that I do not care what form is used, but only that true worship is captured in it. You seem to contend that there is only one narrow form that is capable of expressing true worship. If this is true, then the vast majority of Catholics throughout all of history have done it wrong. There have been many forms. They are several approved forms of liturgy in use now, today.

One narrow understanding of what is spiritual, or worshipful, or reverent cannot capture all the worship of God. So many Catholics are accused of self admiration, self promotion, and even self worship for preferring this or that Mass. I don’t care how others choose to worship, although I hope they do so sincerely. But I think that when one person insists that God may only be worshipped in the way that feels good to that person, that is the height of self promotion.

 

[FAB]

Evidently, neither you nor TMC believe that the Mass is the source and summit of what the Catholic church believes, teaches and lives. Ancient Israel had the same problem. When worship was no longer important to them, Ancient Israel got invaded, sacked and sent into exile. Because we are the New Israel, I’m afraid we’ve adopted our ancestors’ bad habits. Both of you have just made my point.

There were many more problems in Ancient Israel other than the music used. Try the worship of Baal and other Cannanites gods. They turned completely away from the laws of the covenates. By no way is that happening in today’s Church.
These problems that the bishops are addressing have a much larger effect on the life of the church than if the type of music in the mass.

 

[anamchara]

anamchara;2976874:

He’ll be on at 7:00PM CST and I believe his email address is worldover@ewtn.com The discussion should prove most interesting. I think the replay is set for Midnight CST. I am also going to poke around and see what I can find from other dioceses as to what happened.

thanks, it must be why I miss it all the time. I am making and serving dinner out here on the west coast at that time.

 

[Jennifer_J]

We have had this discussion before, and we will never agree. But don’t forget that scrupulous adherence to form of worship without attention to the spiritual needs of individuals was another error committed by Ancient Israel. Isaiah rebuked this practice, as did Christ.

The form of worship means something, but the meaning of the worship trumps the form. The form can change and has changed many times in the history of the Church. The meaning that stands behind the form and informs the form does not change. Our dispute has always been that I do not care what form is used, but only that true worship is captured in it. You seem to contend that there is only one narrow form that is capable of expressing true worship. If this is true, then the vast majority of Catholics throughout all of history have done it wrong. There have been many forms. They are several approved forms of liturgy in use now, today.

One narrow understanding of what is spiritual, or worshipful, or reverent cannot capture all the worship of God. So many Catholics are accused of self admiration, self promotion, and even self worship for preferring this or that Mass. I don’t care how others choose to worship, although I hope they do so sincerely. But I think that when one person insists that God may only be worshipped in the way that feels good to that person, that is the height of self promotion.

I think part of the problem is that the only form of musical worship in most Catholic churches today is along the line of “the Lord of the Dance”. We aren’t ever given any traditional music anymore. Where is the room for MY spirituality??? All I hear is happy-clappy stuff. All I ask for is faithful translations (no pc junk) of hyms that we can all sing that actually promote Catholic Doctrine. As a convert from protestantism, I don’t want to hear Amazing Grace anymore, I want something with more substance that follow the rubrics set down by the Vatican and the Bishops in union with the Pope… I guess that’s asking too much…

Jennifer