Any word on Sacred Music from the USCCB?

[NewUlm1976_2000]

I think part of the problem is that the only form of musical worship in most Catholic churches today is along the line of “the Lord of the Dance”. We aren’t ever given any traditional music anymore. Where is the room for MY spirituality??? All I hear is happy-clappy stuff. All I ask for is faithful translations (no pc junk) of hyms that we can all sing that actually promote Catholic Doctrine. As a convert from protestantism, I don’t want to hear Amazing Grace anymore, I want something with more substance that follow the rubrics set down by the Vatican and the Bishops in union with the Pope… I guess that’s asking too much…

Jennifer

That is an issue you need to bring up with the local priest and music minister. They may be able to work with you to find a musical middle ground of some type.

If you are in the Twin Cities, you do not have to drive far to find a huge variance in parish styles and music preferences and you can probably find one that fits your needs.

 

[benedictgal]

There were many more problems in Ancient Israel other than the music used. Try the worship of Baal and other Cannanites gods. They turned completely away from the laws of the covenates. By no way is that happening in today’s Church.
These problems that the bishops are addressing have a much larger effect on the life of the church than if the type of music in the mass.

Let me see now. Baal has now become the “community” which is where the focus of the current trend in liturgy is heading towards.

If you don’t think that music, the rubrics and the liturgy aren’t important, than why are you spending time at the forum?

 

[mercygate]

Can we stop squabbling and get back on topic? Please?

 

[benedictgal]

I suppose that we’ll all just have to wait until Raymond Arroyo come out tonight so that he can give us the skinny on what happened.

Perhaps we should defer future comment until after World Over airs. I am going to try to have a serious talk with our director of Divine Worship to see what actually happened.

 

[FAB]

Let me see now. Baal has now become the “community” which is where the focus of the current trend in liturgy is heading towards.

If you don’t think that music, the rubrics and the liturgy aren’t important, than why are you spending time at the forum?

Baal was the god of the Cannaites, usually represented by a bull. I don’t see any of this kind of worship going on in our churchs. The Hebrews in ancient history fell over and over again from God’s covenate.

I certainly see the Rubics as important. The music needs to enhance and add spiritulity to the worship experiance. Much of what I read on these threads come down to personal choice. I have been a musician for over 35 years in the church. I have sung everthing from the Alleluia Chorus to Lead Me Guide Me. I see a place and time for all of it.

 

[benedictgal]

Baal was the god of the Cannaites, usually represented by a bull. I don’t see any of this kind of worship going on in our churchs. The Hebrews in ancient history fell over and over again from God’s covenate.

I certainly see the Rubics as important. The music needs to enhance and add spiritulity to the worship experiance. Much of what I read on these threads come down to personal choice. I have been a musician for over 35 years in the church. I have sung everthing from the Alleluia Chorus to Lead Me Guide Me. I see a place and time for all of it.

Actually, it’s a mix of personal choice and church documentation.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Baal was the god of the Cannaites, usually represented by a bull. I don’t see any of this kind of worship going on in our churchs. The Hebrews in ancient history fell over and over again from God’s covenate.

And in its place, some in the Catholic Church have replaced baal with christa, buddha, and any numbers of new age gods, goddesses, forces, etc., etc. And those who idiotically follow this do so vehemently in the so-called misnomer of the “spirit of Vatican II”.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

I think the disconnect seems to be that the “norms” can be broad in nature and not narrow as what appears to be your preference. Worldwide there are many diverse styles that all fit into the present “norms”. We are a church of over 1 Billion people so uniformity is unrealistic.

Yeah, we need those broad norms. Open up with some melody and words - leader say something to open up - maybe say something nice about a superior Being - read something and comment on it - collect some money and bring up some food - say something over the food - invite people to eat food - say goodbye. And don’t forget to make frequent mention of our greatness and splendor! Yeah, why hamper us down and prevent us from exploring the most diverse means of conducting a social hour that’s all about us.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

I wonder if many of those posting here even know what spirituality means in a Catholic sense. It does not mean some sort of feelings or an emotional response. It does not mean some vague notion of religiosity.

Spirituality means a specific way of relating to and communicating with God. For instance, a Carmelite Spirituality that uses Lectio Divina (among many other things). Or the spirituality of the Sacred Heart devotion where we contemplate the love of God. Spirituality can refer to a single action or focus - such as the Sacred Heart - or a complete system - such as Carmelite.

That is why saying something like the music enhances the spirituality of the Mass makes no Catholic sense.

 

[FAB]

Hello,

And in its place, some in the Catholic Church have replaced baal with christa, buddha, and any numbers of new age gods, goddesses, forces, etc., etc. And those who idiotically follow this do so vehemently in the so-called misnomer of the “spirit of Vatican II”.

Some how I don’t think this is the case. You would really need to give examples and just not retoric.

 

[benedictgal]

Some how I don’t think this is the case. You would really need to give examples and just not retoric.

Before you cast the first stone, you haven’t exactly given us any yourself.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Some how I don’t think this is the case. You would really need to give examples and just not retoric.

Here are some examples related by Father Corapi:

A couple went to Mass and were shocked to see on the Cross a naked woman. So after Mass they went to the Priest and asked what that was. The Priest said - that’s christa. Who’s christa? What you don’t know about christa, she’s the image of crucified woman oppressed by the patriarchal Church.

A woman went into Church during Lent and their were crystals in the holy water font (that’s a new age thing). She went to the Priest - FATHER! someone has put crystals in the holy water fonts. Priest said - yeah, I did. We need to be open to power from all sides.

Other examples: Places practicing labyrinths, holding feminism seminars, womans spirituality days (another feminist thing) - there’s a place run by “nuns” near me that holds this type of heretical nonsense (and I’m almost convinced that they practice witchcraft and other new age garbage there) - worshiping false gods and goddesses - like the worship of mother earth (sometimes called gaia).

There are some who think that buddhism and Catholicism are somehow compatible and practice all that zen nonsense. Thomas Merton (first example I’m aware of) started going this way and many have followed him.

How many Catholics think that it doesn’t matter what religion you practice - all that matters is that you’re a good person. How many Catholics think that you can mix and match religions to find one that fits you - and especially that the Church needs to update itself to come into line with modern relativisitc ideologies.

 

[FAB]

Hello,

Here are some examples related by Father Corapi:

A couple went to Mass and were shocked to see on the Cross a naked woman. So after Mass they went to the Priest and asked what that was. The Priest said - that’s christa. Who’s christa? What you don’t know about christa, she’s the image of crucified woman oppressed by the patriarchal Church.

A woman went into Church during Lent and their were crystals in the holy water font (that’s a new age thing). She went to the Priest - FATHER! someone has put crystals in the holy water fonts. Priest said - yeah, I did. We need to be open to power from all sides.

Other examples: Places practicing labyrinths, holding feminism seminars, womans spirituality days (another feminist thing) - there’s a place run by “nuns” near me that holds this type of heretical nonsense (and I’m almost convinced that they practice witchcraft and other new age garbage there) - worshiping false gods and goddesses - like the worship of mother earth (sometimes called gaia).

There are some who think that buddhism and Catholicism are somehow compatible and practice all that zen nonsense. Thomas Merton (first example I’m aware of) started going this way and many have followed him.

How many Catholics think that it doesn’t matter what religion you practice - all that matters is that you’re a good person. How many Catholics think that you can mix and match religions to find one that fits you - and especially that the Church needs to update itself to come into line with modern relativisitc ideologies.

If these happened, Then they are abuses and should be reported to the Bishop. But they repesent only small fractions and not the direction of the church as a whole. Accusing the nuns of witchcraft rediculous. There are women issues that need to be address and the labyrinth is an ancient way long practiced in the church for contiplative prayer. Yes there are misguided Catholics who think religion is relative. That still isn’t the church practiceas a whole. Any organiztion as large as the Church will have it’s share of nut’s and flakes.

 

[benedictgal]

I’m not too hopeful about what I’ve heard on the World Over (which should bring great joy to FAB, TMC, Jim-OCDS and ULM). While at least there is now some ordering, the fact that the bishops didn’t take the 2/3 to send this document to Rome is disappointing.

What is also amazing is that there were over 375 amendments to the text. Having worked in a legislative environment, we were allowed to see texts of amendments (we also had to make sure that they were germaine to the bill in question). However, unless you saw the EWTN live coverage, you don’t know what was said or by whom and I doubt that the USCCB will give you a written account of what actually happened.

When it was reported by Ramymond’s co-host (and his name escapes me right now), he thought it was a great thing because it gives bishops leeway in the music. Excuse me, but isn’t this what started the whole problem? Tell me something I don’t already know.

Some positive aspects were the fact that the bishops finally affirmed that Gregorian Chant was the default music of the Church, always has been, always will be. The document also defines the order of what Mass parts should be sung (a no-brainer like the Alleluia/Lenten Gospel Acclamation, and then the Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation and Great Amen, next followed by the Agnus Dei). Hey, my PV already does it during daily Mass.

The other issue centered on translation of liturgical texts. It seems that they have now moved past some issues. The lectionary, if I inferred correctly, is the next one to go. Fr. Richard John Neuhaus has written extensively on how faulty the current translation is (it is comes from the New American Bible, and guess who owns the copywright?-drumroll, the USCCB).

Don’t get me wrong, y’all. While I’m not too keen on the USCCB (for many things), I do pray for them. Those of you who have Chaput as your Metropolitan, get down on your knees and thank the Lord for this gift. I hope that our new Texas Cardinal follows in his footsteps. God only knows that we need some solid, faithful shepherds. Would that we had a Joseph Ratzinger in every diocese. But, cloning is sooo against Church doctrine.

Well, I’ve got to go to ouir animal shelter benefit rock concert. Maybe I can blow off some steam there.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Hello,

I wonder if many of those posting here even know what spirituality means in a Catholic sense. It does not mean some sort of feelings or an emotional response. It does not mean some vague notion of religiosity.

Spirituality means a specific way of relating to and communicating with God. For instance, a Carmelite Spirituality that uses Lectio Divina (among many other things). Or the spirituality of the Sacred Heart devotion where we contemplate the love of God. Spirituality can refer to a single action or focus - such as the Sacred Heart - or a complete system - such as Carmelite.

That is why saying something like the music enhances the spirituality of the Mass makes no Catholic sense.

Having responses to the music played is a way that many connect with God, some being the performers of the music and some the listeners of the music. How can there not be some type of human emotional response when communicating with God?

Spirituality in people does not have to be defined by any specific order, there are so many different ways to do it.

About a month ago a priest at a mass I was at said this: “The important thing is THAT we pray, not necessarily HOW we pray”.

Think about that for a minute…

Music for many people is a form of prayer. Different types of music reach different types of people. Singing with the rest of the parish is both part public and part private prayer to people. Given this, how can Spirituality not enter into the discussion? Is it just because it is not formally written down by some religious order? Prayer like this through music is neither just “Catholic” or “Protestant” but effects all people of all religions, or even no religion.

 

[benedictgal]

Having responses to the music played is a way that many connect with God, some being the performers of the music and some the listeners of the music. How can there not be some type of human emotional response when communicating with God?

Spirituality in people does not have to be defined by any specific order, there are so many different ways to do it.

About a month ago a priest at a mass I was at said this: “The important thing is THAT we pray, not necessarily HOW we pray”.

Think about that for a minute…

Music for many people is a form of prayer. Different types of music reach different types of people. Singing with the rest of the parish is both part public and part private prayer to people. Given this, how can Spirituality not enter into the discussion? Is it just because it is not formally written down by some religious order? Prayer like this through music is neither just “Catholic” or “Protestant” but effects all people of all religions, or even no religion.

That is sooo not true, ULM. How we worship is very important. You just don’t get it, do you. Sometimes I wonder if you just like to shoot points up in the air and hope a duck falls. Sorry, but your shooting blanks.

I don’t mean to be rude, though, but sometimes I wonder if you just post to upset folks or are you being sincere?

 

[Jennifer_J]

That is an issue you need to bring up with the local priest and music minister. They may be able to work with you to find a musical middle ground of some type.

If you are in the Twin Cities, you do not have to drive far to find a huge variance in parish styles and music preferences and you can probably find one that fits your needs.

I’m not, but thanks. I’m 2 hours from the Twin Cities. Smallish town, not too many choices…

Jennifer

 

[lak611]

That is sooo not true, ULM. How we worship is very important. You just don’t get it, do you. Sometimes I wonder if you just like to shoot points up in the air and hope a duck falls. Sorry, but your shooting blanks.

I don’t mean to be rude, though, but sometimes I wonder if you just post to upset folks or are you being sincere?

Private prayer and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass are two different things. How we pray privately is up to us, but how the Mass is said is up to our Holy Father.

 

[RSulli]

I doubt the USCCB will say or do anything about liturgical music.

OCP already has the guidelines from the USCCB commitee on liturgical music and will follow it.

The bottom line is, Its really not that big of an issue for the USCCB, when compared to other more serious issues.

Jim

:ehh: The liturgy and the holy sacrifice of the Mass are our only reason for being. Under the new law how we attend these things determine our stance with Almighty God. How we stand with God will determine the outcome of our “issues”. Thank you Jim for this thought

 

[benedictgal]

:ehh: The liturgy and the holy sacrifice of the Mass are our only reason for being. Under the new law how we attend these things determine our stance with Almighty God. How we stand with God will determine the outcome of our “issues”. Thank you Jim for this thought

Sulli, you’ve hit the nail on the head. Jim and I have been debating this issue over several threads.

OCP is what got us all on the liturgical downward spiral to begin with, Jim. If they had been following the guidelines all along, as you suggest they have, we wouldn’t be in this mess. OCP does not have any rule-making authority on what sacred music is; the bishops are supposed to do that. In the meantime, we are subject to their sappy, nappy tunes that celebrate the community and little else. Their hymns draw heavily on the Protestant tradition and do not resemble Catholicism in any way. Their tunes go from soft pop to reggae and everything in between. Their Mass parts are highly suspect because they take significant liberties (English and Spanish) with the approved texts (by approved, I mean, as they come down from Rome). That, my friend, is not following the guidelines. As I have said many times, you can put lipstick and high heels on a sow, but she’ll still be a pig.

Evidently, Jim, you never read the USCCB powerpoint or else you’d understand what we are trying ot say here.