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Dan123
Guest
mVitus didn’t say they didn’t have souls but that it wasn’t a scientific question. Unless science finds a way to detect and study a soul there’s really nothing more to be said.
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Adam existed, he is also mentioned in the New Testament and his son Abel is in the Eucharistic prayer!Correct that Adam didn’t really exist, and correct that the idea that he did is perhaps four or five thousand years long. However Christians only accepted it for less than two thousand years before realising the truth.
True so six thousand years instead of six days, hardly 25 billion years is it?Bible also says a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day, and God is understood as the author of time to exist outside of time.
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edwest211
Guest
The redshift concept has been called into question by Halton Arp, an assistant to Edwin Hubble who admitted the redshifts might not be what he first thought they were.
You think I would trust science to talk about souls?mVitus didn’t say they didn’t have souls but that it wasn’t a scientific question. Unless science finds a way to detect and study a soul there’s really nothing more to be said.
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Techno2000
Guest
Who in the Bible really did exist ?Correct that Adam didn’t really exist
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angel12
Guest
Nobody’s asking you to.You think I would trust science to talk about souls?
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ChunkMonk
Guest
It permitted research. This has no bearing on the question of whether it permitted belief.Humani generis bravely permitted research into evolution
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Kei
Guest
I’m pretty sure Catholic teaching requires us to believe in Adam and Eve as the parents of us all
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Dan123
Guest
Indeed, in the 1960’s. Lots of science done since then, including the Hubble space telescope among others which allowed data Arp didn’t have. His theories have been largely discarded because increasing amount of evidence pointed to them being increasingly unlikely. But now I’m curious, how old did Halton Arp think the universe was?
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Hugh_Farey
Guest
Don’t you Creationists ever learn? Quotemining, selective quotation that deliberately twists context. Why are you all so dishonest?It permitted research. This has no bearing on the question of whether it permitted belief.
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Hugh_Farey
Guest
You’re perfectly correct. The injunction in Humani Generis that forbids a belief in polygenism is still, so far, valid, and the official teaching of the Church. I disagree with it, and I doubt if any 21st century Catholic theologian investigating the subject agrees with it either, but it is still there. I have made this quite clear, and my disagreement with it, several times in this and other threads.I’m pretty sure Catholic teaching requires us to believe in Adam and Eve as the parents of us all
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twf
Guest
Many of us believe that a real Adam and a real Eve happened to be the first male and female hominids endowed with an eternal soul from among a larger, pre-existing community of hominids.
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Kei
Guest
So are you openly rejecting Church teaching?
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Richca
Guest
There are many mysteries involved here but I will present a few from the Fathers of the Church, doctors, saints, magisterial teachings, and the CCC.Why did he come to earth by being born to a human mother instead of just creating a full grown body as he did for Adam?
(1) As Adam did not have a mother or father who could care for and raise him, it is reasonable that God would create him in the vigor of youth or a young man with all the knowledge necessary to care for himself without a mother and father.
(2) The mystery of Christ’s incarnation involves the mystery of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, a mystery that profoundly influenced the Marian theology of the that great apostle of Mary, St Maximilian Kolbe.
(3) Mary is the new Eve, the ‘mother of all the living’ or spiritually redeemed; Mother of divine grace, Mediatrix of all graces; co-redemptrix of the human race; Mother of the Church. As Eve was created without sin and in the state of sanctifying grace so also Mary is immaculately conceived in the state of sanctifying grace without the stain of original sin. As the Church teaches, Mary was singularly involved in the work of the redemption of the human race under and in union with Christ her divine Son. Many saints have penetrated into these mysteries of faith under the guidance of the Holy Spirit as can be found in their writings and teaching.
(4) Christ’s incarnation in the womb of Mary is further proof of his true human nature, he was a true man although true God at the same time.
(5) The Holy Family is the ideal example for all families.
(6) Christ’s hidden life before his public mission is an example for youth and the laity. The hidden life of Christ with Mary and Joseph was an ‘ordinary’ life like that of the laity; a life of work and toil and family life. St Josemaria de Escriva upon receiving a supernatural experience from God dedicated his life’s work to the message of the universal call to holiness especially among the laity. The ‘ordinary’ life of the laity following the example of the hidden life of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph is a vocation and pathway of holiness and sanctity; a life to sanctify, be sanctified in, and give praise and glory to God. St Josemaria said that though the gospels are relatively silent concerning the hidden life of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, this silence speaks volumes.
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Richca
Guest
(continued)
(7) St Paul compares the first Adam to the second Adam or Christ in a number of places in the New Testament. He says of the first Adam that “he was a type of the one who was to come” (Romans 5:14) and in 1 Cor. 15:47 “The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.” St Irenaeus (140-202 A.D.) who was a disciple of St Polycarp, in turn a hearer and disciple of St John the Apostle, disciple of Christ, drew an ‘analogy of faith’ between Adam and Christ. He writes that as Adam was miraculously created by God from the ‘virgin’ earth for the earth had not yet been tilled nor had rain yet fallen on it (Gen. 2:5,7), so too Christ recapitulating Adam in himself was miraculously conceived by the Holy Spirit in the virginal womb of Mary. He further states:
If, then, the first Adam had a man for his father,
and was born of human seed, it were reasonable to say
that the second Adam was begotten of Joseph. But if
the former was taken from the dust, and God was his
Maker, it was incumbent that the latter also, making a
recapitulation in Himself, should be formed as man by
God, to have an analogy with the former as respects
His origin.
Evidently, St Irenaeus did not believe the immediate and miraculous creation of Adam from the dust of the earth was only a metaphor but a reality. If it wasn’t a reality, than that could present a challange he thought to the dogma of the virginal conception and birth of Jesus. Indeed, there is no indication from Christ himself in the gospels, from the teaching of the Apostles, and what they handed down to the early Church as seen in the writings of the apostolic fathers and the fathers after them, that the creation of Adam from the dust of the earth was only a metaphor of some sort. On the contrary, the early christains and fathers understood and believed it literally.
(7) St Paul compares the first Adam to the second Adam or Christ in a number of places in the New Testament. He says of the first Adam that “he was a type of the one who was to come” (Romans 5:14) and in 1 Cor. 15:47 “The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.” St Irenaeus (140-202 A.D.) who was a disciple of St Polycarp, in turn a hearer and disciple of St John the Apostle, disciple of Christ, drew an ‘analogy of faith’ between Adam and Christ. He writes that as Adam was miraculously created by God from the ‘virgin’ earth for the earth had not yet been tilled nor had rain yet fallen on it (Gen. 2:5,7), so too Christ recapitulating Adam in himself was miraculously conceived by the Holy Spirit in the virginal womb of Mary. He further states:
If, then, the first Adam had a man for his father,
and was born of human seed, it were reasonable to say
that the second Adam was begotten of Joseph. But if
the former was taken from the dust, and God was his
Maker, it was incumbent that the latter also, making a
recapitulation in Himself, should be formed as man by
God, to have an analogy with the former as respects
His origin.
Evidently, St Irenaeus did not believe the immediate and miraculous creation of Adam from the dust of the earth was only a metaphor but a reality. If it wasn’t a reality, than that could present a challange he thought to the dogma of the virginal conception and birth of Jesus. Indeed, there is no indication from Christ himself in the gospels, from the teaching of the Apostles, and what they handed down to the early Church as seen in the writings of the apostolic fathers and the fathers after them, that the creation of Adam from the dust of the earth was only a metaphor of some sort. On the contrary, the early christains and fathers understood and believed it literally.
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buffalo
Guest
In 1871, Blessed Pope Pius IX thanked Dr. Constantin James, an eminent French Catholic physician, for writing the book On Darwinism, or the Man-Ape, in which, in the words of Blessed Pope Pius IX:
he “refutes so well the aberrations of Darwinism” . . . “a system which is so repugnant at once to history, to the tradition of all the peoples, to exact science, to observed facts, and even to Reason herself, would seem to need no refutation, did not alienation from God and the leaning toward materialism, due to depravity, eagerly seek a support in all this tissue of fables . . . And, in fact, pride, after rejecting the Creator of all things and proclaiming man independent, wishing him to be his own king, his own priest, and his own God-pride goes so far as to degrade man himself to the level of the unreasoning brutes, perhaps even of lifeless matter, thus unconsciously confirming the Divine declaration, When pride cometh, then cometh shame. But the corruption of this age, the machinations of the perverse, the danger of the simple, demand that such fancies, altogether absurd though they are, should-since they borrow the mask of science-be refuted by true science.” (Quoted in White, A.D., The History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom (1895), Arco Publishers (1955), pp. 75-76.)
he “refutes so well the aberrations of Darwinism” . . . “a system which is so repugnant at once to history, to the tradition of all the peoples, to exact science, to observed facts, and even to Reason herself, would seem to need no refutation, did not alienation from God and the leaning toward materialism, due to depravity, eagerly seek a support in all this tissue of fables . . . And, in fact, pride, after rejecting the Creator of all things and proclaiming man independent, wishing him to be his own king, his own priest, and his own God-pride goes so far as to degrade man himself to the level of the unreasoning brutes, perhaps even of lifeless matter, thus unconsciously confirming the Divine declaration, When pride cometh, then cometh shame. But the corruption of this age, the machinations of the perverse, the danger of the simple, demand that such fancies, altogether absurd though they are, should-since they borrow the mask of science-be refuted by true science.” (Quoted in White, A.D., The History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom (1895), Arco Publishers (1955), pp. 75-76.)
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buffalo
Guest
Perhaps we should submit Hugh_Farey’s catechism to get an Imprimatur?
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Hugh_Farey
Guest
In this respect, yes.So are you openly rejecting Church teaching?
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Kei
Guest
Have you spoken with your pastor about this? Do you receive Communion? I am glad you remain Catholic, as it is the One True Church founded by Christ Jesus, as you should. However, is it not proper to submit to Church’s Teaching authority in this matter?
God bless
God bless
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