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Dan123
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My emphasis added
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twf
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It doesn’t matter. We as laity are bound even by non-infallible teaching.
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edwest211
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The laity need to be told the truth.
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catholic1seeks
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I haven’t read the last like 100 posts, but just to note that Pope Francis doesn’t think evolution is “kinda crazy.” He has indicated the precise other way: That it’s kinda crazy to think of God with a “magic wand” in the first chapters of Genesis. He says evolution is compatible.
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buffalo
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I really never understood his comment. Of course we don’t think of God with a “magic wand”. Why would intelligently designed creation be akin to a magic wand?I haven’t read the last like 100 posts, but just to note that Pope Francis doesn’t think evolution is “kinda crazy.” He has indicated the precise other way: That it’s kinda crazy to think of God with a “magic wand” in the first chapters of Genesis. He says evolution is compatible.
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edwest211
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Intelligent Design is the only thing that works.
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Hugh_Farey
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Intelligent Design would certainly work. But there is no evidence for it ever having occurred. A common Creationist argument against evolution is that it has never been witnessed, or never been proved, or that there is no empirical evidence for it. By their own standards, Creationists should either show that Intelligent |Design has been witnessed, proved, or that there is empirical evidence for it before they can claim that it is true. Perhaps you’d like to provide some?Intelligent Design is the only thing that works.
No, I thought not.
By contrast, the truth of evolution does not depend on it having been witnesses or proved. There is, of course, ample empirical evidence which provides the basis for the explanation of the origins and development of life that we call evolution. That’s all we need. By your own argument, you need a whole lot more.
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edwest211
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From Communion and Stewardship:
“69. The current scientific debate about the mechanisms at work in evolution requires theological comment insofar as it sometimes implies a misunderstanding of the nature of divine causality. Many neo-Darwinian scientists, as well as some of their critics, have concluded that, if evolution is a radically contingent materialistic process driven by natural selection and random genetic variation, then there can be no place in it for divine providential causality. A growing body of scientific critics of neo-Darwinism point to evidence of design (e.g., biological structures that exhibit specified complexity) that, in their view, cannot be explained in terms of a purely contingent process and that neo-Darwinians have ignored or misinterpreted. The nub of this currently lively disagreement involves scientific observation and generalization concerning whether the available data support inferences of design or chance, and cannot be settled by theology. But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” (Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1). In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science. Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided. Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles…It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” (Summa theologiae I, 22, 2).”
“69. The current scientific debate about the mechanisms at work in evolution requires theological comment insofar as it sometimes implies a misunderstanding of the nature of divine causality. Many neo-Darwinian scientists, as well as some of their critics, have concluded that, if evolution is a radically contingent materialistic process driven by natural selection and random genetic variation, then there can be no place in it for divine providential causality. A growing body of scientific critics of neo-Darwinism point to evidence of design (e.g., biological structures that exhibit specified complexity) that, in their view, cannot be explained in terms of a purely contingent process and that neo-Darwinians have ignored or misinterpreted. The nub of this currently lively disagreement involves scientific observation and generalization concerning whether the available data support inferences of design or chance, and cannot be settled by theology. But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” (Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1). In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science. Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided. Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles…It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” (Summa theologiae I, 22, 2).”
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buffalo
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So we see intelligent design all around us and we observe it happen. It exists.ntelligent Design would certainly work. But there is no evidence for it ever having occurred
Biology looks like it is designed, it just isn’t since we all know evolution is true, so it is just an illusion.
Intuitively, humans understand design when we see it.
Language, codes and symbols are examples of design.
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semper_catholicus
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Can Popes teach heretical things or errors in his Ordinary Magisterium?
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edwest211
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Well said. Design is real.
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twf
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Yes. We are still bound by anything taught authoritatively.
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semper_catholicus
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Not to the same level of a dogmatic pronouncement though, but you’re right.
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catholic1seeks
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http://www.thomisticevolution.org/d...-response-to-the-intelligent-design-proposal/This god of ID is a small and puny god who is not the creator and sustainer of all things, but a glorified mechanic stepping in to arrange natural things when he feels like it!
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catholic1seeks
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http://www.thomisticevolution.org/disputed-questions/how-does-god-create-through-evolution/Evolution understood within the perspective of classical theism would consist of innumerable events where God working as First Cause ordains, as only God can, the course of every contingent event in evolutionary history. He would do this by working through the individual and contingent things as individual and contingent causes, whether they are molecules, cells or organisms, that He has brought into existence at particular times and places, as particular contingent kinds of things. God can design through chance.
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catholic1seeks
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http://www.thomisticevolution.org/disputed-questions/gods-providential-governance-of-creation/God does not rely on creatures to execute His providential order of creation because of any lack or weakness on His part. Rather He invites them to cooperate with His providence because of the abundance of His goodness. He desires to impart the dignity of causality, the dignity of having a full and true role in the greater order of nature, to His creatures. As we discussed above, God’s primary causality reaches down to every aspect of creation, but He chooses to work through the secondary causality of created instruments. Further, the providence of God is not reactive like the governance of the foreman. God is never surprised or caught off guard by the limitations of His creatures. Even their imperfection, their fallibility, does not escape His knowledge. Because the flow of time is a property of creation itself, God is not subject to our moment by moment experience, but has full knowledge of every moment, past, present and future, in one eternal now. His providential knowledge of what is, for us, the future is unchangeable and certain because, to Him, it is actually present.
[…]
In sum, divine providence is simply the extension of God’s intimate knowledge of each created thing to the totality of creation, without sacrificing any of its depth. This providence is both comprehensive and extremely particular. God was not in any way constrained in what He could have created and so His choice of this particular providential order was made freely, a choice made purely from His divine wisdom and love. Thus, when we catch a glimpse of the beauty of the order of the created world, in nature itself or in human activity, we can take delight in the fact that we are catching a glimpse of God’s providence. Even when that order escapes us and the tragedy of evil stares us in the face, we can take some comfort in the knowledge that nothing escapes God’s wise and loving providence and that, ultimately, all things are ordered to the good, to God himself.
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catholic1seeks
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http://www.thomisticevolution.org/disputed-questions/the-nature-of-creation/Whether the world was comprised of a fixed number of biological species that remain ever the same or an evolving number and diversity of species, the world is created. For in either scenario, each thing in the world, including space and time themselves, would emanate from God and depend on him for their very being.
In fact, there are a variety of possible scenarios about the ways in which the elements, molecules, and life-forms may have developed, evolved, or remain fixed, and in all these possible scenarios the world would be created so long as one did not deny each thing’s ever present dependency on God for its very being or the emanation of things from the eternal God.
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edwest211
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Guided design is the answer. Denying living things are designed is ideology, not science.
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Dan123
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Just for the sake of discussion, how do you determine if something is designed?
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Hugh_Farey
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No we don’t. No, it doesn’t. A bald assertion is not evidence for anything.So we see intelligent design all around us and we observe it happen. It exists.
Meaningless.Biology looks like it is designed, it just isn’t since we all know evolution is true, so it is just an illusion.
Intuition is a very poor guarantee of truth.Intuitively, humans understand design when we see it.
No! Languages, in particular, are very good analogies to evolution. They are most certainly not designed, even though they look a bit like it. They evolved.Language, codes and symbols are examples of design.
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