Anybody out there "pro-choice"?

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Can you explain the fine structure for the offenses? Can you describe the length of the sentences?

Please don’t think bombings are limited to the police. A bomb was left on the women’s healthcare property where my daughter works. A robot had to retrieve it. The local police, the sheriff’s department, the FBI and Homeland Security were all called to the scene. No one could drive their cars home. The defusing of this bomb went well into the night. The person who left it there was apprehended and sentenced to 40 years in prison. He was, and I suppose still is, a pro-life advocate.

Limerick**
I don’t think anyone here is ignorant of the various abortion clinic bombings/shootings/etc. However, anyone truly pro-life will quickly point out that those people are not pro-life. They are anti-abortion, who see the means of ending the lives of the abortion clinic workers as justifying the end of halting abortions in that place. Therefor, they cannot be considered pro-life.

The bit you were commenting on from the previous poster was not suggesting that those actions have only ever been carried out by police. The point was that police have justifiably used such tactics in the past for the protection of the innocent. Someone who is pro-life who is moved to use force cannot in good moral conscience carry out an act that would endanger the well-being of anyone involved. Murdering an abortionist for the sake of protecting the unborn is never justified by the pro-life stance.
 
I don’t fully agree with you on this one. There are two levels of morals. Those that directly impact others and those that do not. We as catholics do not believe in forceing people to attend church There are other things that we see as moral issues where we educate and push but do not use coercion or force. How ever when those moral issues deal with harming another, Murder (including abortion) stealing, etc. We do approve of force to protect the innocent.
Would you say that the force you are referring to would be state-authorized force–police, courts, etc, rather than force on the part of regular people? (As this would be the Catholic position).
 
Just quickly, for clarification, what I mean is that truth is outside of us, so what we experience does not affect it. For example, just because Joe is color-blind and experiences the world in black and white doesn’t mean there is no color. Naturally as one matures, hopefully one gets a fuller idea of the truth, but the truth was out there to have a fuller idea of it gotten.
So you are saying there is only one truth?
 
I am the mother of nine, and am pro-life as you might guess. Three of my children were born prematurely, two at 29 weeks gestation, and one at 30 weeks gestation. All three spent many weeks in the NICU, where I meet mothers of babies born at 23, 24, and 25 weeks gestation. Every one of these children is a real human person, and all of them could have been aborted legally because of choice. What a shame! 😦
 
Keep the joy of loving God ever burning in your heart, and share this joy with others. That’s all. – Mother Teresa.

Dear NCSue:

I find the fact that you use Mother Teresa’s quote a bit of a contradiction on your stand for pro choice. Mother Teresa was 100% pro life taking any child to save it from abortion, and any adult to give love in the last stages of life.

There are two choices: 1. Pro Life which defends and promotes life from conception to natural death and… 2. Pro death which says life is not valuable if it is unwanted, inconvenient, or if it presents a hardship to another more powerful living being.

This stand by virtue of it’s opposite and opposing stand must also include life from conception to death. Pro death is the pro choice stand.

May the fight to protect life continue to grow in strength until reason takes over and all see that only God can make or take life no matter what one’s personal belief is. Nature if that is your God says the same thing. Things live and die at their natural inclination. If left alone that is.

It is not potential life but life with potential. All life.

St. Teresa of Calcuta - + Pray for us.
 
I don’t think anyone here is ignorant of the various abortion clinic bombings/shootings/etc. However, anyone truly pro-life will quickly point out that those people are not pro-life. They are anti-abortion, who see the means of ending the lives of the abortion clinic workers as justifying the end of halting abortions in that place. Therefor, they cannot be considered pro-life.

The bit you were commenting on from the previous poster was not suggesting that those actions have only ever been carried out by police. The point was that police have justifiably used such tactics in the past for the protection of the innocent. Someone who is pro-life who is moved to use force cannot in good moral conscience carry out an act that would endanger the well-being of anyone involved. Murdering an abortionist for the sake of protecting the unborn is never justified by the pro-life stance.
I didn’t ask anyone.** I asked royal archer. And as most pro-life people love to rely on the semantics argument when it comes to pro-choice vs. pro-abortion, I want to point out that the same shoe fits on your foot here with your wiggling around the bombing issue and dressing it up with rhetoric. Pro-life is anti-abortion. ** And violence is violence is violence; anyone using a bomb and thinking s/he is “just” in attempting to halt abortions is at best delusional.

Limerick**
 
I didn’t ask anyone.** I asked royal archer. And as most pro-life people love to rely on the semantics argument when it comes to pro-choice vs. pro-abortion, I want to point out that the same shoe fits on your foot here with your wiggling around the bombing issue and dressing it up with rhetoric. Pro-life is anti-abortion. ** And violence is violence is violence; anyone using a bomb and thinking s/he is “just” in attempting to halt abortions is at best delusional.

Limerick**
I don’t think anyone on this thread will argue with what you have said. Indeed Pro Life is anti abortion. We do try to follow the 5th Commandment no matter how much we are attempted to do differently.
 
Yes, part of being pro-life is being anti-abortion, however not all anti-abortion people are pro-life, hence the bombings. If you can wage war on the rhetoric of ‘pro-choice’, then I should be free to do the same with ‘pro-life’. If choice is all about the absolute freedom of will, then life is all about the undeniable dignity of all life.

I never once condoned the actions of the bombers, and in fact their actions greatly sadden me and I am more than happy to speak out against them. The people they’ve killed or tried to kill were someone’s children, someone’s brothers or sisters, someone’s parents. Killing them goes against everything the pro-life people stand for. Certain radicals who have lost sight of the true meaning of life, be it out of anger, desparation, or delusion, should not be toted as the spokesmen of the pro-life movement, just as the certain abortion clinics who usher women in and coerce them on to the table shouldn’t be the poster-boys of the pro-choice world. Pointing out the radicals of either side will do nothing for this conversation.
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elts1956:
The “truth” of individual conscience and Prudential judgement as opposed to Absolute Truth.
You’ll have to expand farther than one sentence if you expect a coherent response.
 
**
Force to what extent? Bombings? Hostage-taking? Murder?

Limerick**
Just wondering why you keep arguing in favor of abortion, and then accusing the Church of using the above kind of force.
 
**And violence is violence is violence; anyone using a bomb and thinking s/he is “just” in attempting to halt abortions is at best delusional.

Limerick**
Anyone who advocates killing of innocent children and then turns around and accuses all pro-lifers of advocating violence is the ultimate in hypocrisy, arrogance, and judgementalism. When pro-abortionists stop violently killing innocent children then all of the violence will go away. Anyone who thinks that abortion is not violent are the ones who are delusional.

Eddie Mac
 
Just wondering why you keep arguing in favor of abortion, and then accusing the Church of using the above kind of force.
**Maybe you haven’t allowed it to sink in, but I do not argue in favor of abortion. I argue in favor of non-intervention. It’s none of my business whether or not a woman has chosen to have an abortion. And it’s none of your business, either.

I did not accuse the Church** of using violence. I asked a poster if he was advocating violence to the extreme of bombing. Check out the sequence of posts.

Limerick
 
Anyone who advocates killing of innocent children and then turns around and accuses all pro-lifers of advocating violence is the ultimate in hypocrisy, arrogance, and judgementalism. When pro-abortionists stop violently killing innocent children then all of the violence will go away. Anyone who thinks that abortion is not violent are the ones who are delusional.

Eddie Mac
**
I do not advocate the “killing of innocent children”. I advocate for a woman’s legal right to choose whether or not to continue with or terminate a pregnancy. Furthermore, I advocate for her right and responsibility to choose according to her own religion, her own moral code, her own conscience, and not** mine and not yours. And you are delusional if you believe rendering abortion illegal will cause “all of the violence to go away”. Coercion will escalate, beatings will escalate, rage will escalate, women will investigate all means of illicit abortion. If you have never been in this situation it’s easy for you to be an armchair critic. You cannot appreciate the secret violence if it has not been visited upon you.

Abortion is violent. Abortion is not without risk. Abortion is a pathetic ending to life, to possibilities, to dreams. It closes the casket on relationships, on what we think we know as love, on the potential for a fetus to come into this world and grow and thrive. I do not deny any of it. Although there are incredibly heart-wrenching cases where a fetus has no hope of life, the everyday demand for abortion is directly proportional to the ignorance and selfishness of men and women all over this country. I don’t deny that, either.

But I am not in a position to judge another woman’s situation or to try to persuade her to act against her own moral code. If she asks my opinion I will share my experience, strength and hope with her, because we share a common situation in that I aborted a 13-week-old fetus in June of 1971. I will share with her that I have learned not to repeat the experience, how it shaped my relationship with men, with God, with my daughter, with other women who have asked me about my abortion. I will not vomit this information all over her so that she may sort it out in times of trial and anxiety and fear and dread and worry and confusion. I will not intervene, I will not judge a woman’s situation or decision that comes from that situation. Nor will not advocate for abortion. I will advocate for her to consult whatever Higher Power she may have and decide for herself, with this Guidance, which way to go.

Intervention, coercion, persuasion, manipulation are all inappropriate. I will not participate on any of those levels in another woman’s pregnancy. If you choose to do so, that is your prerogative. But I stand behind free will as a gift from God. Sometimes we don’t use it wisely. No one is immune from foolishness or selfishness. But people should be free to make life decisions without hindrance from others. Anyone is free to disagree with this, as I’m certain most of you will. It does not change my position.

The main life decision in this case is not the one that relieves the pregnant woman or that saves the fetus. It is the one that led the woman into having intercourse in the first place. That’s where to start: the pre-pregnancy, pre-sexually-active place. The place where we are not afraid to give our children - our pre-adolescent children - the facts about their upcoming sexuality - beyond abstinence. They are entitled to the whole package, not just “don’t do it and God will be happy.”

Limerick
 
**The main life decision in this case is not the one that relieves the pregnant woman or that saves the fetus. It is the one that led the woman into having intercourse in the first place. That’s where to start: the pre-pregnancy, pre-sexually-active place. The place where we are not afraid to give our children - our pre-adolescent children - the facts about their upcoming sexuality - beyond abstinence. They are entitled to the whole package, not just “don’t do it and God will be happy.”

Limerick **
Well, that is a good place to start: the decision that led the woman into having intercourse in the first place.

And it’s a good thing to give our children all the facts. I’m not sure what you mean by “beyond abstinence.” The adolescent or young woman has pretty much just two choices here—to have intercourse or not. If they do, there is the distinct possibility that pregnancy will result. By all means, give them all the birth control information, including the negative side effects. But no birth control is 100% effective, and no condom can protect against a broken heart.
 
Well, that is a good place to start: the decision that led the woman into having intercourse in the first place.

And it’s a good thing to give our children all the facts. I’m not sure what you mean by “beyond abstinence.” The adolescent or young woman has pretty much just two choices here—to have intercourse or not. If they do, there is the distinct possibility that pregnancy will result. By all means, give them all the birth control information, including the negative side effects. But no birth control is 100% effective, and no condom can protect against a broken heart.
**Good point about the condom, JimG.

Limerick**
 
You are right on many levels… believe that you are touting the words “a right” around too much. I think that at the level we need to be discussing this topic, the appropriate word should be between what is right, and what is wrong. If we, as we do, feel as though it is wrong, we need to help.

Have you ever seen the movie Juno where a high school senior gets pregnant and decides to get an abortions, but comes to the realization that it is wrong. The girl in the movies motivation is not based on her religious beliefs, but by the hard concrete fact that she has a baby in her, not a “fetus”. This illustration to her allows her to have a realization that she need to have the baby.

The ultra-right-wing approach of baring people is not the way to get the to do what you want. We need to, as I have previously stated, educate, so the decisions made are informed and beneficial to all. We all hope and pray the Lord will enable these mothers to have the child and do what is appropriate for all involved.

This is my approach, it in now way endorses the act of abortion, but respects the woman, not the right. It is like saying that you support the troops without supporting the war.

Revert TSIEG
This may be addressed in the next 10 pages of posts and no one may be posting here any longer but:
Under your criticism of the “ultra-right-wing” approach of banning abortion as “not the way to get the[m] to do what you want”-- are you implying we should not have a law against murder? Should we instead “educate, so the decisions made are informed and beneficial to all”–i.e. the murderer won’t murder us? Really? Don’t you need both? The law with consequences to hopefully deter murderers and also education about how life is sacred, valuable etc. Don’t the two go hand in hand?
What you are really saying is we don’t need laws to protect people because if we just educate them they’ll all behave. I think history shows that this is not always the case.

Peace,
Mark
 
I do not advocate the “killing of innocent children”. I advocate for a woman’s legal right to choose whether or not to continue with or terminate a pregnancy. Furthermore, I advocate for her right and responsibility to choose according to her own religion, her own moral code, her own conscience, and not mine and not yours. Do you think we should adopt this position with regard to murder? What if the murder’s moral code and conscience say: “Survival of the fittest is the only law. I can do whatever I want, take whatever I want–no matter what its effect on others–survival of the fittest baby.” Do you advocate for their “right and responsibiliy to choose according to according to [their} own religion, [their] own moral code, [their] own conscience, and not…yours”?
**Chaos is the only outcome from what you advocate. **
(I would substitute or add “life” for/to “pregnancy” in your statement above–both will either continue or be terminated.)

And you are delusional if you believe rendering abortion illegal will cause “all of the violence to go away”. Coercion will escalate, beatings will escalate, rage will escalate, women will investigate all means of illicit abortion. If you have never been in this situation it’s easy for you to be an armchair critic. You cannot appreciate the secret violence if it has not been visited upon you.
It is unfair to call peple “armchair” critics. Those who think abortion should be illegal–believe the “fetus” is a human life entitled to the rights and protections aforded to those who have already been born. This doesn’t mean they are not sympathetic or empathetic to the situation, do not appreciate the anguish…what they are saying is that that is not a reason for society to allow-that innocent life to be killed.
Many who are not pregnant–with an unwanted pregnancy–experience coercion, beating, and rage–our self absorbed society appears to run rampant with people who know no self-control when they don’t get what they want or when things don’t go their way–and who have no problem taking it out on others through abusive means.

Abortion…either.

But I am not in a position to judge another woman’s situation or to try to persuade her to act against her own moral code. If she asks my opinion I will share my experience, strength and hope with her, because we share a common situation in that I aborted a 13-week-old fetus in June of 1971. I will share with her that I have learned not to repeat the experience, how it shaped my relationship with men, with God, with my daughter, with other women who have asked me about my abortion. I will
not vomit this information all over her so that she may sort it out in times of trial and anxiety and fear and dread and worry and confusion. I will not intervene, I will not judge a woman’s situation or decision that comes from that situation. Nor will not advocate for abortion. I will advocate for her to consult whatever Higher Power she may have and decide for herself, with this Guidance, which way to go. First words cannot express the proper empathy for what you have go through but I don’t think anyone is asking you to judge the womans situation–that is not for us to do–you can however judge the act. The question is – do you believe it is ok to take the life of an innocent human being–in certain situation? Do you believe the “fetus” is an innocent human life–or something else?

**Intervention, coercion, persuasion, manipulation are all inappropriate. **
**Do you say this about all of our laws against things like murder, stealing, domestic abuse, child abuse, etc–or only about abortion? If only about abortion–why is abortion different? **I will not participate on any of those levels in another woman’s pregnancy. If you choose to do so, that is your prerogative. But I stand behind free will as a gift from God. Sometimes we don’t use it wisely. No one is immune from foolishness or selfishness. I couldn’t agree with you more about that.
**But people should be free to make life decisions without hindrance from others. Again I have to ask where do you draw the line? It seems we have a mryiad of laws doing exactly this–no murder, no stealing, no drinking and driving, no assault and battery, no speeding, no storing a car on the street in front of your house, no taking illegal drugs, no driving without a seatbelt, no riding without a helmet and the list goes on and on. Are you suggesting we have no laws? What makes abortion special? The unborn baby is not a “part of the woman” it has it’s own DNA. Why should it not have any rights? Or why should the woman, and only the woman, be given the power of life or death over it? I seriously would like this explained to me?**Anyone is free to disagree with this, as I’m certain most of you will. It does not change my position.

**The main life decision in this case is not the one that relieves the pregnant woman or that saves the fetus. It is the one that led the woman into having intercourse in the first place. That’s where to start: the pre-pregnancy, pre-sexually-active place. The place where we are not afraid to give our children - our pre-adolescent children - the facts about their upcoming sexuality - beyond abstinence. They are entitled to the whole package, not just “don’t do it and God will be happy.” **Absolutely–but once the pregancy occurs–does this have any bearing on whether or not an abortion should be allowed?

**Limerick **
 
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